Powers of void binding

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

Yeah, all the Unmade names are known (and there are confirmed to be only nine) so I think Cusicesh is a "normal" (Honor/Cultivation affiliated) but unusually Invested spren (though not to the level of Stormfather/Nightwatcher/Sibling).

--

I am thoroughly confused about the entire concept of Voidbinding. After WOR I thought that's what the stormform lightning was, but it's not that. The Fused use Surgebinding, just a different form of it.

Renarin gets his Void-Truthwatching from Glys ... but Sja-anat was not historically known to corrupt  Nahel-bonding "true spren". So if that is where Voidbinding comes from, how is it known in the Rosharan culture, if it's only appearing now???

Why then has the storm faither never mentioned it?

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I'm pretty sure the lightning is also some form of voidbinding

But do you have anything to back it not just being a form of illumination?

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Why then has the storm faither never mentioned it?

I'm afraid I don't understand, can you explain?

[bmcclure7]

16 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

But do you have anything to back it not just being a form of illumination?

I'm afraid I don't understand, can you explain?

Well he Dalinar asked him if there were any more unic Spren and he mentioned only the sibling.

[bmcclure7]

20 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

But do you have anything to back it not just being a form of illumination?

I'm afraid I don't understand, can you explain?

Illumination dose not produce lightning. 

[Frustration]

15 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Well he Dalinar asked him if there were any more unic Spren and he mentioned only the sibling.

He asked fro the spren that formed Bindsmiths, Cusichesh can't form a Radiant.

14 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Illumination dose not produce lightning. 

Illumination is the power of waveforms, so I don't see why not.

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

He asked fro the spren that formed Bindsmiths, Cusichesh can't form a Radiant.

We don’t know that.

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Illumination is the power of waveforms, so I don't see why not.

I… um… I’m not sure you quite understand how lightning works.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

We don’t know that.

We do.

Spoiler

Jurble

Are Bondsmith spren created as a matter of intent by Shards or are they 'natural' insofar as any spren made of enough Investiture would create a Bondsmith bond? That is, for example, the Everstorm is clearly a giant mass of Odium's Investiture, if someone were to bond its spren (which is presumably very young and insensate currently), would it form a Bondsmith bond as a matter of (super)natural laws or would Odium have to tweak something on a metaphysical level to allow a Bondsmith bond to form?

Brandon Sanderson

It wouldn't naturally become a Bondsmith spren, as it's not JUST the amount of Investiture that makes one. (For example, there's that odd spren in Iri that has a ton of Investiture, but didn't become a Radiant spren.) To become a Radiant spren requires some different things.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 28, 2020)

 

8 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

I… um… I’m not sure you quite understand how lightning works.

Probably more than you assume but let's do this the long way.

How does lightning work?

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

How does lightning work?

It’s a big electric discharge. I don’t believe you can manipulate electrons using Illumination. I might be wrong about that, but the definition you provided is “the manipulation of waveforms,” so…

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

It’s a big electric discharge. I don’t believe you can manipulate electrons using Illumination. I might be wrong about that, but the definition you provided is “the manipulation of waveforms,” so…

Tell me, How do electrons get their electric charge?

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Tell me, How do electrons get their electric charge?

If you’re going to go quantum with this, then technically, everything’s a waveform.

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

If you’re going to go quantum with this, then technically, everything’s a waveform.

I don't even have to go that far.

All electromagnetism can be traced back to the photon, and photons move in waves, light wavelengths are a result of this and given RoW I see no reason to assume that lightning generation is outside the bounds of Illumination.

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

He asked fro the spren that formed Bindsmiths, Cusichesh can't form a Radiant.

Illumination is the power of waveforms, so I don't see why not.

We have already seen what the surge of illumination can do in Shallan lightning isn't one of them. 

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

We have already seen what the surge of illumination can do in Shallan lightning isn't one of them. 

Jasnah can't teleport in the Physical realm, Stonewards can't move through stone, Windrunners can't fly forever without recharging, Odium has shown different forms of Surgebinding, why not one more?

[KaladinWorldsinger]

11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

But do you have anything to back it not just being a form of illumination?

10 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

All electromagnetism can be traced back to the photon, and photons move in waves, light wavelengths are a result of this and given RoW I see no reason to assume that lightning generation is outside the bounds of Illumination

I would like to pop into this discussion because I think there is a good chance that lightning is a voidish form of division rather than illumination. Because perception is key.

The surges are based on the perception of the people of Roshar. Infact, since we think of 4 fundamental forces, Brandon has said that we would have only 4 surges and electromagnetism would be one of them

The only way I see it illumination creating lightning is if the lightweaver in question deeply understands the physics and can visualise lightning as the result of waveforms. But Roshar doesn't have that kind of knowledge yet. They are still in the Renaissance era.

But lightning being an application of division is more plausible for people who live in the middle ages. 

There is a strong connection between flames and division (flamespren and ashspren). Lightning was mainly known for setting trees on fire. In many cultures, lightning is just an extension of fire. Even in ATLA.

Another speculation in favor of this is the fact that they are called skybreakers. skybreakers have division and also fly in the air. Lightning usually symbolises god's judgement on the wicked( similar to the floods). Skybreakers are also interested in justice.

It's not airtight, but i think it's more likely to be division than illumination

[cometaryorbit]

15 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Brandon has said parts of Voidbinding had been seen in the past but that it hasn't been explored properly. Presumably other weirdness like Renarin's visions have happened in the past. Possibly from different sources such as other Unmade and utilizing different Surges

Presumably. But how did humans tap into the power of the Unmade to Voidbind, without Enlightened/corrupted true spren?

The Unmade can connect to humans to some degree, e.g. the Death Rattles and the Thrill and the uninhibited behavior driven by Ashertmarn, but these sort of things seem different from full-on "Magic system" manifestations of Investiture.

 

[Frustration]

18 minutes ago, Ookla the Cometary said:

Presumably. But how did humans tap into the power of the Unmade to Voidbind, without Enlightened/corrupted true spren?

We don't know but we know Glys was the first.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Frustration

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, so if Glys was the first, historical Voidbinding must have been obtained through some so-far-unknown mechanism.

We also don't know how much, if at all, Renarin's Voidbinding is altered by his being a Knight Radiant - if historical Voidbinders got the ability a different way, they presumably weren't KR, so is Renarin's power set the same as historical Voidbinding?

(I am assuming historical Voidbinders were in fact humans, because future sight is associated with Voidbinding in human lore; it's discussed as something evil that people can do, a temptation - "the soul of it was to try to divine the future" - not a power used by Voidbringers. But I suppose that isn't actually confirmed.)

We do know the Unmade were historically involved, at least "usually":

Quote

dvoraen

"To see the future originates with the Unmade..." "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." Is it therefore safe to say that Voidbinding, by extension, also originates with the Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Not always. But usually.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Ookla the Cometary
expand/clarify + add WoB

[bmcclure7]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Jasnah can't teleport in the Physical realm, Stonewards can't move through stone, Windrunners can't fly forever without recharging, Odium has shown different forms of Surgebinding, why not one more?

Those feats come from the nature of cognitive shadows surge binding. 

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, so if Glys was the first, historical Voidbinding must have been obtained through some so-far-unknown mechanism.

We also don't know how much, if at all, Renarin's Voidbinding is altered by his being a Knight Radiant - if historical Voidbinders got the ability a different way, they presumably weren't KR, so is Renarin's power set the same as historical Voidbinding?

(I am assuming historical Voidbinders were in fact humans, because future sight is associated with Voidbinding in human lore; it's discussed as something evil that people can do, a temptation - "the soul of it was to try to divine the future" - not a power used by Voidbringers. But I suppose that isn't actually confirmed.)

We do know the Unmade were historically involved, at least "usually":

 

More evidence that regals are void binding 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Those feats come from the nature of cognitive shadows surge binding. 

Then why can't the Heralds do it?

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

More evidence that regals are void binding 

Voidbinding ususally originates with the Unmade, not lesser Voidspren

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, the Regals do some similar things (according to the WOR Epigraphs, one of the forms of power grants some kind of future sight) but I don't think this is exactly the same power/magic system as Voidbinding.

I think it's related but distinct, kind of like how various Rosharan animals (chasmfiends, skyeels, etc.) use spren bonds to lighten themselves. This is manipulating Gravitation in a sense, but not quite the same thing as what a WIndrunner/Skybreaker is doing.

I think the Regal abilities/Forms of Power are Odium adding his own spren into the natural spren-bond magic that's a part of Roshar's biology - it's not really a "magic system" in the usual sense, at least not the kind humans use.

This may deserve a full theory thread, but I think that what the Fused are doing is actual Surgebinding, but accessed through Odium's 'lens', kind of like (Mistborn Era 1 spoilers)

Spoiler

Steel Inquisitors using Allomancy (Preservation's system) granted through Hemalurgy (Ruin's system)

Venli can power Surgebinding with Voidlight, but she doesn't really know why she can do this.

Renarin, I think, is using Voidbinding - still ultimately based on the Ten Surges, but a different way of using the same basic powers. Another Mistborn analogy:

Spoiler

Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy all can grant "strength" and "senses", but in different ways, with different details and limitations.

Since there are "ten levels of Voidbinding" per the Ars Arcanum, not nine, I think this is a Honor/Odium or Honor/Cultivation/Odium magic system native to Roshar, not a pure Odium one native to Braize.

As for why Voidbinding was never fully explored in the past - there are only nine Unmade, and some of the Unmade are mindless anyway and couldn't do anything but their "basic" effect (like Ashertmarn's reduced inhibition thing), so the full set of ten powers was never available. This may be why Voidbinding is so strongly associated culturally with future sight, if that was one of the few powers actually seen.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Since there are "ten levels of Voidbinding" per the Ars Arcanum, not nine, I think this is a Honor/Odium or Honor/Cultivation/Odium magic system native to Roshar, not a pure Odium one native to Braize.

I don't see why it can't be pure Odium, Cultivation is on Roshar, but Ashyn's magic is fueled by her.

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Then why can't the Heralds do it?

Voidbinding ususally originates with the Unmade, not lesser Voidspren

The unmade grant forms of power

[Frustration]

39 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

The unmade grant forms of power

One Unmade did, and I would hardly count doing it only during the false desolation as most of the time.

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I don't see why it can't be pure Odium, Cultivation is on Roshar, but Ashyn's magic is fueled by her.

I suppose it could be a pure-Odium system of Roshar, yeah.

I was kind of going on the assumption that Odium originally didn't really Invest in Roshar, that's more recent. While some of the voidspren may be true Splinters of Odium, mostly Odium seems to work through corrupting existing things (the singers, Unmade, Sja-anat's corrupted/enlightened spren, etc.)