[Poll] [Discuss] Did Jasnah do the right thing?

[ConfusedCow]

@Ookla the frustrated, Frustrated you and I have had this argument before at some length no? I got confused by the name change.  I wonder why Jasnah's 'innocence' is so important to you.  I think from a literary perspective Jasnah's let's go with 'ruthless practicality' is intended as a character flaw.  Consider her dealings with assassins and desire to kill the Heralds.  Brandon is at some length to point out his criticisms of Jasnah.  Even offering a pretty cogent condemnation from Shallan.  I don't have my book on me but I think Shallan says "... seeking out men to kill is an immoral act, Jasnah".  Which rings pretty true.  Jasnah is meant to provide a foil and contrast to some of the more overly moralistic characters like Kaladin and Dalinar.  The reader is meant to see Jasnah as too blood thirsty, too confident, too willing to go to extremes and worry about where that will lead.

[Frustration]

47 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Easy holding options: Clothes to metal or stone. Make a block of stone around their legs. Ground beneath them to tar.

Turning their cloths to metal or stone would drop them face first at high speeds into the ground, at minimum you are looking at a broken nose, at most their just dead. Making a block around their legs, stops their legs in motion instantly, likely breaking them, and throw their upper half forward violently causing sevier pain at most, and killing them at worst.

Turning the ground beneath them to tar increases the already large demand on stormlight as tar is not one of the essences.

47 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Yeah, but at that point, I stretches the grounds of reasonable belief. Besides that, we know she didn't think they were still a threat to her, because she went there to kill those men. Reasonable belief only matters in legality. Jasnah practically admits that she knew the other thieves were fleeing and killed them anyways, and considering her character, she would certainly recognize that they were running away. She would not lose herself to emotions such as fear.

Even so I would consider them still part of the initial confrontation.

45 minutes ago, ConfusedCow said:

@Ookla the frustrated, Frustrated you and I have had this argument before at some length no? I got confused by the name change.  I wonder why Jasnah's 'innocence' is so important to you.  I think from a literary perspective Jasnah's let's go with 'ruthless practicality' is intended as a character flaw.  Consider her dealings with assassins and desire to kill the Heralds.  Brandon is at some length to point out his criticisms of Jasnah.  Even offering a pretty cogent condemnation from Shallan.  I don't have my book on me but I think Shallan says "... seeking out men to kill is an immoral act, Jasnah".  Which rings pretty true.  Jasnah is meant to provide a foil and contrast to some of the more overly moralistic characters like Kaladin and Dalinar.  The reader is meant to see Jasnah as too blood thirsty, too confident, too willing to go to extremes and worry about where that will lead.

Jasnah's innocents is of no concern of mine, I don't particularly like her, I think she was better in WoK prime, however in this specific instance I find it difficult to find fault with what she did.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ookla the Frustrated

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Turning their cloths to metla or stone would drop them face first at high speeds into the ground, at minimum you are looking at a broken nose, at most their just dead. Making a block around their legs, stops their legs in motion instantly, likely breaking them, and throughs their upper half forward violently causing sevier pain at most, and killing them at worst.

Tripping someone could kill them. Tripwires are not considered deadly force. 

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Even so I would consider them still part of the initial confrontation.

That is still murder. She killed them because she wanted to kill them, not because of self-defense.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Tripping someone could kill them. Tripwires are not considered deadly force. 

Tripping doesn't add 40-60+ some odd pounds of weight onto an individual, and prevent them from using their arms.

Would you like to be put in a straightjacket with 45 pounds of metal strapped to your chest while pushed at six miles an hour straight into a stone floor?

7 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

That is still murder. She killed them because she wanted to kill them, not because of self-defense.

Murder is a legal term and does not apply, and secondly legality and morality are not the same thing.

[SomeRandomPeasant she/her]

42 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

What method of subduing them would you recommend that is more humane than instant painless death? I doubt she had the stormlight on her to actually make that work. 

The two footpads who ran away were turned into smoke by Jasnah.  Jasnah has said that turning organic material uses more stormlight than turning inorganic material.  So killing them actually used more stormlight.  She had more than enough stormlight to transform the inorganic material around her.

42 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

SomeRandomPeasant said: But Jasnah could have easily transformed the stone from under him into smoke.  She had the power to pursue no lethal methods and she choose otherwise. 

Ookla the Frustrated responded with: if she did he would break his legs or die of brain truama from dropping into a pit large enough to hold him.

You don't break your legs or die of brain trauma by falling into a pit half your height.  But if you don't like my idea, fine.  She could have easily transformed the stone from under them into sand.  Than turn that sand into stone again, once they are submerged up to the waist.  

Jasnah is the most powerful living Radiant, after the Bondsmiths.  She has had her powers for the longest, and was already an accomplished transformation surgebinder before Kaladin ever met Syl.  If you are going to argue that she was actually incapable of non violently subduing the foot pads, than I think you are severely underestimating her abilities.

42 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

If an angry mob charges you, open fire.

Well now it makes sense!  I guess than we will just have to agree to disagree.  There is such a thing as justified use of deadly force, but I don't think it should be your first option.  Especially if you are a top tier, self regenerating Radiant.

Edited December 13, 2021 by SomeRandomPeasant

[ConfusedCow]

So Frustrated what is the rule here? It's ethical to kill anyone you feel threatened by? You are free to go around provoking others as much as you want and if they react aggressively gun them down?  Honestly, I'm curious. What are the guiding principles we should use to govern our use of deadly force?

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Tripping doesn't add 40-60+ some odd pounds of weight onto an individual, and prevent them from using their arms.

Would you like to be put in a straightjacket with 45 pounds of metal strapped to your chest while pushed at six miles an hour straight into a stone floor?

Murder is a legal term and does not apply, and secondly legality and morality are not the same thing.

See, now this just isn't fair. Murder is not okay, no matter what.

The definition of "murder," according to Google, is "kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation."

By this definition, Jasnah murdered these men. She premediated her actions, and it was certainly unlawful. If you still think it was justified, go look at Peasant's post - she most definitely could've stopped the mob without harming them.

augh

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, ConfusedCow said:

So Frustrated what is the rule here? It's ethical to kill anyone you feel threatened by? You are free to go around provoking others as much as you want and if they react aggressively gun them down?  Honestly, I'm curious. What are the guiding principles we should use to govern our use of deadly force?

No, not provoke an attack, if you are attacked you are given free reign to do as you please until the situation ends.

11 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

The two footpads who ran away were turned into smoke by Jasnah.  Jasnah has said that turning organic material uses more stormlight than turning inorganic material.  So killing them actually used more stormlight.  She had more than enough stormlight to transform the inorganic material around her.

So does only transforming part of an object

11 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

You don't break your legs or die of brain trauma by falling into a pit half your height.

You aren't trapped in a pit half your height.

11 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

 She could have easily transformed the stone from under them into sand.  Than turn that sand into stone again, once they are submerged up to the waist.  

She has transformation not cohesion, at the beach you have sand that goes down far further but you won't sink an inch.

11 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

Jasnah is the most powerful living Radiant, after the Bondsmiths.  She has had her powers for the longest, and was already an accomplished transformation surgebinder before Kaladin ever met Syl.  If you are going to argue that she was actually incapable of non violently subduing the foot pads, than I think you are severely underestimating her abilities.

Her surges do not help as much as you think they do, if she had cohesion, or gravitation she could have done something, transformation is a lot more dangerous than most people give it credit.

11 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

Well now it makes sense!  I guess than we will just have to agree to disagree.

I'm ok with that.

11 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

There is such a thing as justified use of deadly force, but I don't think it should be your first option.  Especially if you are a top tier, self regenerating Radiant.

I will respect that opinion.

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Confused said:

See, now this just isn't fair. Murder is not okay, no matter what.

The definition of "murder," according to Google, is "kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation."

By this definition, Jasnah murdered these men. She premediated her actions, and it was certainly unlawful. If you still think it was justified, go look at Peasant's post - she most definitely could've stopped the mob without harming them.

I find flaws with all of those options, none are quite so harmless as you might think.

On topic of premeditaion, if someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night I will do my best to kill them, have I just premeditated murder?

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ookla the Frustrated

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

I find flaws with all of those options, none are quite so harmless as you might think.

On topic of premeditaion, if someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night I will do my best to kill them, have I just premeditated murder?

But that's not what happened. Nobody broke into her house. She went into that alleyway fully expecting to be attacked, and fully expecting to do some murder.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Confused said:

But that's not what happened. Nobody broke into her house. She went into that alleyway fully expecting to be attacked, and fully expecting to do some murder.

If I'm walking in a dark alley at night, and I think "if someone jumps me I'll shoot them" is that premeditated murder?

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

If I'm walking in a dark alley at night, and I think "if someone jumps me I'll shoot them" is that premeditated murder?

*sigh*

She knew someone would jump her, though. She knew that there were men waiting to jump a noblewoman. She came into that alleyway not just prepared but expecting to kill.

[ConfusedCow]

No, but thinking "I hope someone jumps me so I can shoot them is pretty close"

[Frustration]

Just now, Ookla the Confused said:

She knew someone would jump her, though.

No, she isn't Renarin, she excpected someone to jump her, that is not the same.

1 minute ago, Ookla the Confused said:

She knew that there were men waiting to jump a noblewoman.

No, she did not, she knew they frequented the area, but she did not know they were there.

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Confused said:

She came into that alleyway not just prepared but expecting to kill.

And that changes things?

1 minute ago, ConfusedCow said:

No, but thinking "I hope someone jumps me so I can shoot them is pretty close"

I'm not certain of the inherent morality of wanting a situation to happen

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

5 minutes ago, ConfusedCow said:

No, but thinking "I hope someone jumps me so I can shoot them is pretty close"

I think it just boils down to the fact that Jasnah didn't come into that alleyway to fight crime, or to defend herself. She went to teach a lesson to Shallan. And that ended up killing three men.

Edit: Also, @Ookla the Frustrated, check my wording. She didn't know those specific men were there, but she knew there were men there. She wouldn't have taken Shallan out for the "lesson" if she hadn't known they would be there.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ookla the Confused

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Confused said:

Edit: Also, @Ookla the Frustrated, check my wording. She didn't know those specific men were there, but she knew there were men there. She wouldn't have taken Shallan out for the "lesson" if she hadn't known they would be there.

How would she have known?

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

How would she have known?

 

3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Because she's Jasnah

 

[SomeRandomPeasant she/her]

 

24 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

She has transformation not cohesion, at the beach you have sand that goes down far further but you won't sink an inch.

Her surges do not help as much as you think they do, if she had cohesion, or gravitation she could have done something, transformation is a lot more dangerous than most people give it credit.

Don't worry this will be my last post.

Jasnah doesn't need Cohesion to transform stone into sand and air.  Cohesion doesn't allow you to transform all objects into stone.  It allows you mold stone into a shape of your choosing.

The Surge of Transformation means changing objects into a material of the surgebinder's choice.  This can be done with any material, but it is most easily done with the ten essences like air, smoke, and oil.

She could have easily turned the stone from under the footpads into sand and air, or even oil.  Than when they are submerged, Jasnah can turn the material back into stone.

24 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

You aren't trapped in a pit half your height.

Yes, but once the footpads are in she could easily transform the air back into stone.

Those footpads died becasue Jasnah wanted them to die.  As other people have said, Jasnah had a many ways to not kill a fleeing target.  She is smart enough and experienced enough to do so.

24 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

I will respect that opinion.

I respect your opinion as well.

Edited December 13, 2021 by SomeRandomPeasant

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

Ok, so I've thought about this some more, and I think I may be wrong. But I also may be right!

Let's put it in terms of Intent and Command. When you're using Investiture (at least, in certain ways), both of them matter. I believe the same applies to morality. For example, if you kill somebody who was intending to kill you (the Command), it makes a big difference whether you knew that they were trying to kill you, or if they were doing it for unrelated reasons (the Intent).

This was obviously premediated on Jasnah's front. But I think it makes a difference what she was thinking when she was premediating it. Would she have done this even if she wasn't trying to teach Shallan a lesson? If she would have, then I think it's morally acceptable. Her Command - her murder of the men - almost certainly ended up saving lives (at least, with my limited knowledge of the situation in Kharbranth), and her Intent was, indeed, to save those lives. But if she was just trying to teach Shallan a lesson, her Intent wasn't to save lives, it was to make a confused girl think about things. Which definitely isn't worth the lives of the three men she killed.

Fortunately, with Jasnah flashbacks in the back half, we might get to see her Intent.

Unfortunately, we won't get to see that for at least 17 years.

*sigh*

[ConfusedCow]

@ookla the confused,

               You can't be almost certain killing them saved lives? Maybe you kill them and there's a war to control their turf or more vicious criminals come to replace them.  Maybe the guard captain they worked with retaliates. Maybe you spare their lives and they tell you how someone has been snatching people off the streets.  Maybe mercy helps you get ahead of Taravangian and stop the Veden civil war. 

              Even if you absolutely knew killing someone would save other peoples' lives, that's not sufficient justification to kill them.  See trolley problem, baby hitler, deontology vs utilitarianism.  Also Jasnah says this wasn't about teaching Shallan a lesson and I believe her.  

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, Ookla the Confused said:

 

 

there is a large difference between following the actions of the King, and knwoing where each and every member of a criminal group is at all times.

[NameIess]

9 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Tripping doesn't add 40-60+ some odd pounds of weight onto an individual, and prevent them from using their arms.

Would you like to be put in a straightjacket with 45 pounds of metal strapped to your chest while pushed at six miles an hour straight into a stone floor?

Fine. how about just their legs then? trip them first, then immobilize them afterwards. Or how about she soulcasts ropes around them? She's skilled enough for it.

9 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

So does only transforming part of an object

Does it? I was under the impression that it required more skill, not that more stormlight. Regardless, humans are much more invested than air, rocks, or clothes. Therefore, they are much harder to soulcast than even part of an object.

Regardless, you say that once your life is threatened, you gain the right to use deadly force until the situation ends. Well, Jasnah killed the person who threatened her life. The situation was over. She can't kill people who didn't threaten her life, while they are not threatening her life but fleeing. Someone threatening to murder me does not give me the right to shoot their friend in the back as he runs away. Besides that, self defense sometimes requires you to do everything you can do escape the situation besides violence. Jasnah did the opposite.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Fine. how about just their legs then? trip them first, then immobilize them afterwards. 

That runs into the same problem making blocks of stone around them caused.

3 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Or how about she soulcasts ropes around them? She's skilled enough for it.

Ropes are

1. composed of organic substances
2. Very far removed from any of the essences.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Does it? I was under the impression that it required more skill, not that more stormlight. Regardless, humans are much more invested than air, rocks, or clothes. Therefore, they are much harder to soulcast than even part of an object.

Not neccesarily it would be about equal.

6 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Regardless, you say that once your life is threatened, you gain the right to use deadly force until the situation ends. Well, Jasnah killed the person who threatened her life. The situation was over. She can't kill people who didn't threaten her life, while they are not threatening her life but fleeing. Someone threatening to murder me does not give me the right to shoot their friend in the back as he runs away.

They were all threats, they had commited the crime together, and were all armed.

Even on purly legal standards they planed it together so anything one of them does they are all guilty for.

8 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Besides that, self defense sometimes requires you to do everything you can do escape the situation besides violence. Jasnah did the opposite.

That depends on your state, and again is legal, not moral

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

That runs into the same problem making blocks of stone around them caused.

Not really. They can catch themselves with their arms. Highly unlikely that they would die.

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Ropes are

1. composed of organic substances
2. Very far removed from any of the essences.

Fine. Chains. My point is that Jasnah could easily have captured them instead of killing them.

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

They were all threats, they had commited the crime together, and were all armed.

Even on purly legal standards they planed it together so anything one of them does they are all guilty for.

"Guilty for" does not mean "you can kill all of them if one attacks". Let's put it this way. If Jasnah had killed one of those men, two of the others had fled, and one of them had dropped his knife, fallen on his knees crying, and begged for mercy, would she be justified in killing him?

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

That depends on your state, and again is legal, not moral

Why do we have laws? To prevent and punish immorality. If you think legality is entirely separate from morality, why do you care about self defense? Self defense is a legal term. 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Not really. They can catch themselves with their arms. Highly unlikely that they would die.

No but their legs would likely break

2 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Fine. Chains. My point is that Jasnah could easily have captured them instead of killing them.

Chains are a lot worse, now you have a lot of bruises, hairline fractures, and probably a broken rib/arm.

3 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

"Guilty for" does not mean "you can kill all of them if one attacks". Let's put it this way. If Jasnah had killed one of those men, two of the others had fled, and one of them had dropped his knife, fallen on his knees crying, and begged for mercy, would she be justified in killing him?

Entirely depends on whether she still deems him to be a threat, if she ingnores him he is in an excelent position to jump her.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

Why do we have laws? To prevent and punish immorality.

Please take a look at the people making those laws and tell me if they work.

5 minutes ago, Ookla the unintelligible said:

If you think legality is entirely separate from morality, why do you care about self defense? Self defense is a legal term. 

Because that is litterally exactly what happened.

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Chains are a lot worse, now you have a lot of bruises, hairline fractures, and probably a broken rib/arm.

 

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated said:

No but their legs would likely break

Neither of these kill the men, both of them incapacitate them. Jasnah can take them in to the authorities, express her discontent with the city guard for allowing criminals such as this to run free. Criminals get executed immediately, crooked guard captain takes a major political blow at best, gets fired or demoted at worst.

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Entirely depends on whether she still deems him to be a threat, if she ingnores him he is in an excelent position to jump her.

Ah yes. Self defense. Killing someone because if I ignore them, they will be in a good position to kill me. Yes, those are the only two options. killing the blubbering mess, or turning your back and leaving yourself completely open to attack. Not like you could simply lock him to the ground, then walk away.

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Please take a look at the people making those laws and tell me if they work.

Yes, the laws work. They may have flaws, but they work.