Hoid RoW epilogue

[morphee]

Hi, 
 

It's my first post, I specifically created an account so I could talk about it.

During the RoW epilogue, a detail struck me as weird. After Hoid got his memory Breaths modified by TOdium, the dialogue seems more neat the second time.

Quote

How does it feel to know that Dalinar bested you ?

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How does it feel to know that Dalinar, a simple mortal, has gotten the best of you ?

When we repeat a speech, we tend to add words, to emphasize our meaning. 

It feels to me like Wit knew what was happening. He just couldn't resist improving his speech the second time.

 

I know it's a long stretch but please debate

[Infinity Sliver]

I think it's a general consensus that TOdium manipulated the Breaths so that Hoid wouldn't be aware that he was a different person. Before the modification,you can see that Hoid becomes wary because Odium is acting different,so Odium changed his memories to start again so he could act more in line with how Hoid expected him to act

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, morphee said:

It feels to me like Wit knew what was happening. He just couldn't resist improving his speech the second time.

I don't think so, because we see his confusion at what the hell's going on, and him forgetting things (for example, forgetting he did the coin trick, and forgetting that he sent Design off). But that's an interesting point!

[Brian_a_mul]

Just finished the RoW yesterday, its possible TOdium has adjusted more then this specific memory regarding their brief meeting. Other functions like hand/ eye coordination could have been accidently impacted, such as dropping the coin. Will be very interesting to see if Hoid has any other deficiencies (such as speech, limp etc) in book 5 and beyond. Could be the start of a motor neuron or Alzeimers like condition for a lead character from TOdiums meddling. 

Also asks the question if TOdium has now found a way to use Hoid as a pawn in his plans! Hoid can move anywhere in the Cosmere, if TOdium can direct Hoid around the cosmere, it could be more powerful than having Dalinar as his minion!! Implications could be seismic

[Weltall]

Welcome to the Shard, morphee and Brian_a_mul!

10 minutes ago, Brian_a_mul said:

Just finished the RoW yesterday, its possible TOdium has adjusted more then this specific memory regarding their brief meeting. Other functions like hand/ eye coordination could have been accidently impacted, such as dropping the coin. Will be very interesting to see if Hoid has any other deficiencies (such as speech, limp etc) in book 5 and beyond. Could be the start of a motor neuron or Alzeimers like condition for a lead character from TOdiums meddling.

Odium messed with Hoid's Breath stores by removing a little bit of what he had, which affects his memory because he's using them in some way to help deal with accumulating far more memory than a human would normally ever have to deal with and it affects his pitch because that's just what Breaths do and alterations to them could mess with that depending on how many he's currently holding onto. We've known Breath can affect memory in some way since Warbreaker. There's no reason to assume Hoid will experience any other long-term effects (and we see no evidence of them in his chronologically later appearances in MB2) and anything like that would probably violate the terms of the agreement to not harm Hoid that Taravangian had to loophole his way around.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Weltall

[hskeeter]

This is a big play between Todium and Hoid,  Never underestimate Hoid!  He is very crafty and while he does not know what Todiim exist at the end of the book he most likely will figure it out quckly.

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, hskeeter said:

He is very crafty and while he does not know what Todiim exist at the end of the book he most likely will figure it out quckly.

I've seen theorizing that Hoid may have deliberately engineered things so that he would be able to tell after the fact if something strange happened during his meeting with Odium, based on the fact that he apparently had exactly enough Breath that Taravangian excising a small bit of it was enough to drop him below the Second Heightening  Hoid might not know why his memories were tampered with but he could at least have a warning sign afterwards that something important happened that he's unable to remember. Given that he practiced that speech, it's possible he even has some mnemonic trick where he intended to say things exactly one way and if he goes over his recollection afterwards and sees that he didn't, he might have some idea where in the conversation things didn't go according to plan. That's just a thought.

As for why he'd still be so worried during that scene if he'd planned for the possibility of something funny happening, well, the fact that Odium is no longer held by the person Hoid knows so well and whose actions he can comfortably predict would be reason enough to freak out even if he's certain he can't be seriously harmed regardless.

[ElMonoEstupendo]

There's another disturbing implication in the very last line:

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After all, Wit's first face-to-face meeting with Odium in over a thousand years had gone exactly as he had imagined.

Odium's been bound up on Braize for 4,500 years, since Aharietiam. Did Wit visit him there?

Ulim mentions the Everstorm has been building up for centuries. Nale believes a bridge like that would be impossible without some Connection between worlds. Did Rayse pull a similar trick to Taravangian? Is Hoid the thread that allowed the Everstorm to ever-so-slowly build up?

Admittedly it's probably just a turn of phrase, but you usually use that phrasing when it's somewhere close to but above the number you say.

[Bejarden]

31 minutes ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Did Rayse pull a similar trick to Taravangian? Is Hoid the thread that allowed the Everstorm to ever-so-slowly build up?

Rayse was not as smart  as Taravangian and never would have been able to trick Hoid into doing that

Hoid would be to cautious and he is very smart

[Infinity Sliver]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Rayse was not as smart  as Taravangian and never would have been able to trick Hoid into doing that

Is it that Rayse wasnt as smart as Taravangian or that Rayse had just been too warped by Intent of the Shard

[Bejarden]

Either way

One thousand years wouldn’t make a difference  anyway probably 

[gokucauthon]

That coin, something about it.....maybe he just gained connection to Odiums investure.  Another one off the list now how-to utilize it? Hmmmmmm

[Awakened Cremling]

I can't remember who mentioned it in another post and couldn't find it after a brief search to give them credit  but I think Hoid has a backup for his memories. Namely he somehow got access to feruchemy copper and the coins are where he stores them. This wouldn't stop Todium from messing with short term memories that Hoid seems to store in breath but I think Hoid is crafty enough to have a backup for his most important long term memories.

On 4/30/2021 at 5:40 PM, Weltall said:

I've seen theorizing that Hoid may have deliberately engineered things so that he would be able to tell after the fact if something strange happened during his meeting with Odium, based on the fact that he apparently had exactly enough Breath that Taravangian excising a small bit of it was enough to drop him below the Second Heightening  Hoid might not know why his memories were tampered with but he could at least have a warning sign afterwards that something important happened that he's unable to remember. Given that he practiced that speech, it's possible he even has some mnemonic trick where he intended to say things exactly one way and if he goes over his recollection afterwards and sees that he didn't, he might have some idea where in the conversation things didn't go according to plan. That's just a thought.

Good theory. Hoid is experienced and crafty enough that is he knew manipulating or stealing someone's breath were possible it would make sense to keep the amount in his person just above a threshhold to be able to detect it. Now, he won't want to be without perfect pitch for long so he'd have some excess breaths stored somewhere. That leads to an interesting question, can an object store two different kinds of investiture at once? Such as memories and breath?

[Weltall]

42 minutes ago, Awakened Cremling said:

That leads to an interesting question, can an object store two different kinds of investiture at once? Such as memories and breath?

Brandon has said that it's possible to Awaken a coppermind so while it's not quite the same thing there's no reason to think that if you can shove Breath into something to Awaken it that there should be any difference with simply shoving Breath into something as a form of storage, which we know can be done. So yeah, I imagine it would be possible in theory for Hoid to store Breaths in a F-Copper medallion or somesuch if he wanted to be super-redundant with his memories.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Weltall