RoW Chapter 4 & 5 Discussion

[Karger]

9 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

WokPrime spoilers:

Yeah.

9 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

 But then why would Gavilar be so insistent on her marrying Amaram? Wouldn't he try to marry her off to someone who wasn't related to the SoH?

It would also provide a good reason that Amaram always has access to the crown and royal family even after Gavilar's death/was doing whatever he was going to do.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Karger

[Innovation]

If Gavilar married off Jasnah to someone outside the SoH, then that person could potentially discover Gavilar’s goals, being close to the throne. Amaram, as an ally, would be a far safer alternative. 

[theTruthshaper]

1 minute ago, Innovation said:

If Gavilar married off Jasnah to someone outside the SoH, then that person could potentially discover Gavilar’s goals, being close to the throne. Amaram, as an ally, would be a far safer alternative. 

But the argument for Gavilar wanting to marry Jasnah off, was so that she doesn't discover the SoH. Marrrying her to Amaram doesn't help with that.

[Karger]

1 minute ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

But the argument for Gavilar wanting to marry Jasnah off, was so that she doesn't discover the SoH. Marrrying her to Amaram doesn't help with that.

I don't think it helps her.  Yeah she might be able to track that her father and her husband meet more often then normal but Jasnah would probably attribute that to favoritism.  Amaram spends long times away from court and with her married to him she would have had trouble journeying to say Karbranth.  Even if she did find out her being married limits her options and if worst comes to worst he might be relying on Amaram to "control her" as disgusting as that sounds. 

[Innovation]

Good point. Maybe Amaram was to keep her pointed away from the SoH, actively distracting her from their activities? 

[theTruthshaper]

Just now, Karger said:

I don't think it helps her.  Yeah she might be able to track that her father and her husband meet more often then normal but Jasnah would probably attribute that to favoritism.  Amaram spends long times away from court and with her married to him she would have had trouble journeying to say Karbranth.  Even if she did find out her being married limits her options and if worst comes to worst he might be relying on Amaram to "control her" as disgusting as that sounds. 

You misunderstand me. It would be better for Gavilar to marry her off to someone other than Amaram, since that would have limited her even more.

[Karger]

Just now, The_Truthwatcher said:

You misunderstand me. It would be better for Gavilar to marry her off to someone other than Amaram, since that would have limited her even more.

Who?  Jasnah would have eaten your average political hack alive.  If he marries her to someone ambitious or powerful enough to actually have a decent chance of using her, or even cooperating with her, then she is a bigger problem then before not to mention any children they have might be positioned in to mess up the succession. 

[theTruthshaper]

Just now, Karger said:

Who?  Jasnah would have eaten your average political hack alive.  If he marries her to someone ambitious or powerful enough to actually have a decent chance of using her, or even cooperating with her, then she is a bigger problem then before not to mention any children they have might be positioned in to mess up the succession. 

Jasnah also would have(and does) eat Amaram alive, so I doubt that would have worked.

Everything about the Ghostbloods doesn't add up, I suspect that some of information Shallan has is wrong, especially since she has none on Restares

[Karger]

Just now, The_Truthwatcher said:

Jasnah also would have(and does) eat Amaram alive, so I doubt that would have worked.

I think Gavilar would be providing instructions not to mention that he consistently underestimates females.

1 minute ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Everything about the Ghostbloods doesn't add up, I suspect that some of information Shallan has is wrong, especially since she has none on Restares

I don't think any of her information is wrong it is just incomplete and possibly misleading.

[theTruthshaper]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think Gavilar would be providing instructions not to mention that he consistently underestimates females.

I don't think any of her information is wrong it is just incomplete and possibly misleading.

Her information say that Ialai is heading the SoH. This much at least is completely wrong.

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think Gavilar would be providing instructions not to mention that he consistently underestimates females.

This is possible, but unlikely in my opinion. Gavilar is a piece of crem, but he and Navani use to conspire together and Navani speaks of that time with fondness.

Edited August 4, 2020 by The_Truthwatcher

[Starla]

It's interesting that there is no mention of any of the 50 Windrunners having sworn the fourth ideal and gotten shardplate. I know the common theory is that it's something along the lines of letting go of those who can't be saved, but it seems odd that none of the current Windrunners have been able to say that ideal. I can see some Bridge Four members not having a problem with it. Maybe the ideal is not that simple, or perhaps it is difficult to say for other reasons.

[The Ryshadium]

I really hope they don't switch to one chapter a week. 7 and 8 would be hard to get through. 

[Lightspine]

I don't think the traitor feeding Dalinar's info to the SoH is among the upper ranks. They're able to inform them about his plans, but obviously Shallan's offer of fabrial diagrams was outside of their reach. This means they're almost definitely not one of the scholars/ardents who works with Navani, so we can rule out that contingent of people. Taravangian is an option, but he's such a higher-up in the coalition that I'm pretty sure he could have provided the fabrial technology the SoH. Could be one of the Highprinces, though.

Restares is suspiciously missing, but I think it would be an interesting twist if Ialai was Restares all along. (Cue astronaut meme?)

One last thing I have on my mind is that Honorspren which hasn't bonded anyone. I saw somebody else here suggesting it's Phendorana trying to claim Kaladin because she's more "senior" than Syl. I like that idea, but there's another possibility on my mind:

Quote

“Of course I do,” she said. “Not wanting us to be more doesn’t mean I stopped caring.” He glanced at her, then had to turn away because he could see genuine concern in her face. Their relationship hadn’t been right. He knew that as well as she did, and the pain he felt wasn’t for the end of that. Not specifically.

It was simply one more thing weighing him down. One more loss.

Quote

Leshwi’s spear was lined with a silvery metal that resisted Shardblade cuts. More importantly, it was set with a gemstone at its base. If the weapon struck Kaladin, that gemstone would suck away Kaladin’s Stormlight and render him unable to heal—a potentially deadly tool against a Radiant, even one infused by Dalinar’s perpendicularity.

Somebody had to have experienced being stabbed by one of those spears the first time, right? As the number of Windrunners grows, the chances of one of them dying increases as well. I think it's possible that a Bridge 4 Windrunner died and left behind the unbonded spren Kaladin mentions, and that's one of the things weighing heavily on Kaladin. As for the theory that they're after Rock, I don't think that's the case. His beliefs might keep him from combat, but he obviously has no problem with surgebinding, so I'm more inclined to the idea that he belongs to another order. He would fit the Edgedancers (interaction with Rlain during Oathbringer POV) or Stonewards (can't think of someone more dependable) quite well.

[Gilphon]

Come to think of it, Mraize referred to the SoH as 'Restares' cronies' at one point, didn't he? So if Shallan doesn't know about him, then Mraize has deliberately mislead her about the SoH's leadership.

[Innovation]

Or he was killed or captured during the time skip. 

[Lightspine]

4 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Or he was killed or captured during the time skip. 

Possible, but it would be immensely disappointing for an important character whose literally been built up since the prologue of WoK.

[Clarity-Art]

Hello, Radiants! As usual, I've decided to show up three hours late to interrupt your regularly scheduled discussions with my own observations about the new chapters. I've blasted through Season 3 of The Expanse and my college course is coming to a close soon, but I still haven't started my entire Stormlight reread. Is that bad? I have no idea. Anyways, without further ado, here are my takeaways from Chapters Four and Five:

1. I'm not entirely sure if this is an actual Easter egg or me being sleep-deprived, but the Arnist method sounds like it's named after the honorable Alice Arneson. I could be wrong, though after the mentions of Isasik (Isaac Stewart) and frequent appearances of Lyn (Lyndsey Luther), I wouldn't put it past Brandon.

2. I find it interesting that Mraize's goal to get rid of the Sons of Honor coincides with Dalinar's goal to tie up the Sons as a loose, but dangerous end. Initially, I was concerned that Shallan/Radiant/Veil would have a hard time serving multiple causes. However, it's satisfying to watch her kill two chickens with one stone. It's interesting that the Sons decided to name Ialai their leader, although I will note that after Oathbringer, they were probably short on viable candidates. Also, what happened to Shallan's quest to recruit Sja-anat? I have a feeling we aren't finished with that subplot yet. 

3. The phrase "you sweet soft breeze" made me snicker. It reminds me of the "oh, you sweet summer child" phrase from A Song of Ice and Fire, but this take feels very unique to Roshar. The mere use of weather phenomena as curses and emotional expressions fits the worldbuilding well. (Edit: apparently, "sweet summer child" has been around for at least two centuries and GRRM doesn't have a monopoly on the phrase.)

4. What the crem? The Sons of Honor have a spy that's close to Dalinar? I strongly suspect it's one of the highprinces or someone close to the Knights Radiant, or even someone from the coalition of monarchs. 

5. Ash serving as a source of information about the Fused is unexpected, but not unwelcome. I guess this means she's recovered from whatever shock she suffered at the end of Oathbringer, upon realizing that Jezrien was dead. A lot must've happened in the year-long gap between Oathbringer and Rhythm of War, and I was under the impression she'd be in a coma or something. I'm glad she's fully awake and aiding the Radiants, though. It makes me wonder if Taln has recovered as well, even if thousands of years of torture in Damnation can't easily be erased with a snap of stormlight-infused fingers.

6. At this rate, the Windrunners will easily be the most prominent and largest order of Knights Radiant on Urithiru. I'm not particularly sure why there aren't willing honorspren that can initiate the Nahel bond between Kaladin's prospective Windrunners, but I think it comes down to two reasons. Firstly, there's a limited number of honorspren, perhaps far more than the spren of the other orders, because they're Splinters of Honor. Secondly, they must still be wary of bonding with humans after the Recreance happened, and though the Stormfather himself has bonded with Dalinar, the honorspren must be hesitant to trust people again. 

7. How often can Dalinar open perpendicularities? I'm fairly sure there's a limit on how often he can open a perpendicularity, but I guess this power is one of the perks of being a Bondsmith. It implies he can create his own perpendicularities instead of relying on the ones from the Shards, which is fascinating. 

8. I spy another cameo from a team member of Dragonsteel: Kara (Kara Stewart)! Again, maybe I'm sleep-deprived, but Brandon wasn't too subtle about this one. 

9. The reason why Ash can provide information about the Fused is because Jasnah has been interviewing her and Taln? That's intriguing! I think this certainly falls in line with Jasnah's character, since she pursues knowledge and scholarship. Despite her known heresy, she wouldn't pass up the chance to speak with millenia-old Heralds about the past and whatever information they have on Odium's forces. 

10. Sassy Syl is best Syl. There is no contest. Given enough time and training, she'll be insulting people like Wit in no time. 

11. Teft's concern for Kaladin shows how far that Teft has come as a character. I think everyone was moved by his storyline in Oathbringer, regardless of their opinion on the overall book, and seeing him as a fully-fledged Windrunner in action is inspiring. For real, though, Kaladin actually needs to rest. Lopen and Teft have a point: it seems like after Oathbringer, Kaladin hasn't been in the best state of mind, and he's beginning to become burned out by his leadership of the Windrunners. His depression is probably taking a significant toll as well.

12. Aww, it's sweet that Adolin and Shallan (and Pattern, because he's the "chaperone") are working together to bring down the Sons of Honor. So far, we haven't had any cute married-life interactions between them, but I sincerely hope we see them have a conversation in the next few chapters. Adolin seems very supportive and embraces Veil and Radiant as well, though I wonder if their collaboration is actually more of a risk-filled contingency rather than a cute couple activity. 

13. For the Stormfather's sake, Kaladin, PLEASE TAKE A BREAK. You can't fight the Fused and Leshwi if you haven't gotten enough storming sleep. Someone please get this poor man a bed and some hugs. He needs rest now, more than ever. 

14. I think it's endearing and kind that Lyn decided to check on him, but again, Kaladin takes it the wrong way and reacts like he did to Teft and Lopen's inquiries. I genuinely feel bad that their relationship didn't work out, even if it was for the best. Kaladin bears an immense burden of responsibiilty for everything that's gone wrong in his life, taking the loses personally even if it isn't his fault. It's adding to the mental and physical drainage he feels, though I suppose it's also foreshadowing his path to potentially swearing the Fourth Ideal. 

15. WHOA WHOA WHOA, slow your ROLL. CORD WAS IN AIMIA?! I know we'll probably get our answers to this far sooner than we think, with Dawnshard on the way, but stormwinds. My guess is that Cord will probably be a central character of Dawnshard and might get her Shardplate during that novella, though I'm probably off the mark. 

Windrunners, Fused, perpendicularities, Sons of Honor. These chapters were jam-packed with everything I've been looking forwards to in RoW. I enjoyed the new information and plot details immensely, and the characterization was amazing. Keep the hype train going, Radiants! This show is just beginning, and it's swiftly shaping up to be a blast. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by Clarity-Art

[Gilphon]

7 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Or he was killed or captured during the time skip. 

I feel like that would at least warrant a mention. Shallan's talking like Amaram was their leader, which as far as we understand was never true.

What this scene kind of feels like is reducing the SoH from an organization to one or two characters, so that after Ialai and Restares are dealt with we don't have to go 'but what about all the other SoH that presumably existed?'

[Karger]

55 minutes ago, The_Truthwatcher said:

Her information say that Ialai is heading the SoH. This much at least is completely wrong.

We don't know that Ialai is not heading this particular contingent.

6 minutes ago, Clarity-Art said:

3. The phrase "you sweet soft breeze" made me snicker. It reminds me of the "oh, you sweet summer child" phrase from A Song of Ice and Fire, but this take feels very unique to Roshar. The mere use of weather phenomena as curses and emotional expressions fits the worldbuilding well. 

Sweet summer child as a phrase is from the 1840s.

[psc92]

So do we think that the Sons of Honor are actually a bunch of chumps? Or is this misdirection from Brandon? Either way I'm withholding judgement until we finally meet Restares. I don't think they're as 'in the know' or necessarily as competent as the Ghostbloods, but I think they have to be a bit more of a threat than these chapter's have lead us to believe.

[Karger]

1 minute ago, psc92 said:

So do we think that the Sons of Honor are actually a bunch of chumps?

Amaram was one of their leaders.  I expect around that level of competency.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Karger

[Clarity-Art]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

We don't know that Ialai is not heading this particular contingent.

Sweet summer child as a phrase is from the 1840s.

I was not aware of that. Thank you for bringing it to my attention! Nice to know GRRM doesn't have a complete monopoly on the phrase, ahaha. 

[Gilphon]

6 minutes ago, psc92 said:

So do we think that the Sons of Honor are actually a bunch of chumps? Or is this misdirection from Brandon? Either way I'm withholding judgement until we finally meet Restares. I don't think they're as 'in the know' or necessarily as competent as the Ghostbloods, but I think they have to be a bit more of a threat than these chapter's have lead us to believe.

A bit of both. I'm thinking they're mostly chumps with some genuinely dangerous individuals mixed in. 

But, like, anyone who thinks that causing a desolation is a good plan can't be all that competent. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by Gilphon

[Innovation]

Agreed, there is something we aren’t seeing here. Gavilar sent his “box” to Braize. That would require at least some help, and definitely not from this particular group of incompetents. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by Innovation

[Zelly]

1. "cremling with dark purple colorings"  yeah we see you

2. Love Shallan selling them a fake device to see through illusions. 

3. Interesting turn around with Mraize, since last we saw he seemed interested in, but also a bit dismissive of Sadeas.

4.  Was the ruby Dalinar used to catch Neragoul was infused at the time?  Didn't Lil Larkin eat it? Or did it get infused after Dalinar did his Unity bit?

5."They’d learned much about the Fused from the Herald Ash."  ..........BRANDON SIR don't you dare dangle single sentences like that!!

6."He hadn’t expected to find honor among the enemy."  I feel like there's potentially a lot going on in that statement.  Could the Fused be different from before and not realize it? Or is it just this particular type?  Or is it a really clever lure to catch the off guard?  The Fused don't care about dying.  So if they repeatedly convince Windrunners they only fight 1-1 and then use that expectation against them...

7."Leshwi’s spear was lined with a silvery metal that resisted Shardblade cuts. More importantly, it was set with a gemstone at its base."  Aluminum and.....what?  Have we seen any gems that steal Stormlight? Could it be some sort of Voidgem? They don't mention it's color at all, which seems deliberate.

8. What's wrong with my precious cinnamon roll Kaladin?!??!?! Depression we know, but nightmares? DON'T YOU HURT HIM.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Zelly