Oltux72

Looking at the strategies of both sides for ending a desolation

34 posts in this topic

We know what starts a desolation: Heralds returning to Roshar or staying on Roshar for too long. We have no similar idea when it ends. Yet the heralds knew.
The present desolation has one new feature in the form of the Everstorm. In past desolations killed Fused would return in the next desolation only.

So who has which interests after it is sufficiently clear who will win? Let's look at the actors:

The Heralds

They really do not want a desolation to formally end. For them the best possible world would be one where they do little to no fighting, but are allowed to stay on Roshar. The distinctions is important. They want to win the war, but not end it. A bit like mercenaries.

The living Fused

That depends on patriotism. From an individual biew point being alive on Roshar looks better than ghosting around on Braize. They might continue some kind of guerilla. If you want the SIngers to prosper, the next Desolation cannot come soon enough.

The dead Fused

They want the next desolation. For that the Heralds have to break. For them to break they need to be tortured. For them to be tortured they must be forced to return to Braize. If there is no longer a realistic chance of winning, it is better to give up and try again. The sooner, the better.

Odium

His view is likely close to a dead Fused. As soon as his forces are defeated and have done all the damage they can reasonably do on Roshar, it is better to withdraw for the next round to come quickly

.

Where does this leave us in terms of strategy? I am afraid I now need to ask you to liberate your inner psychopath and drop all hints of ethics. Let me look at Odium. After the first few desolations he has understood that he is in a war of attrition. Hence he will shift his focus from the field forces of Honor's troops to the population, as soon as he is losing. While you are winning captured population is good. They will make your supplies, perhaps you can even press some of them into your service. But you lost all prior desolations. You need to prepare to lose this one and be ready to switch. First you want to destroy any institutions that keep civilization working: hospitals, places of learning, port facilities, ship yards, mines, mills, forges ... But at some point this runs into diminishing returns. Then your next target become the people itself. If there are fewer Rosharans, you will face fewer soldiers the next time. And they will have a harder time getting civilisation running again.
So whom do you target? Women and children, especially older girls. The factor (food aside) that sets a limit to the growth of a mammalian population is the availability of fertile females. Hence women and older girls (younger girls is not so good, because child mortality, which will be high, as you are confiscating food, would render a part of your job futile). Disgusting, but wars are not nice. Your enemy will try to stop you by means of fortifications. Warfare is sieges and assaults on fortresses, followed by a dash to catch retreating forces, then surpressing the people of the area you took. And once you are being beaten back, you slaughter civillians.

And once you are beaten so much that the damage you do is no longer worth the time you are giving the Heralds, you retreat to Braize to start over.

So, what, mechanically speaking, ends a desolation and forces the Heralds back to Braize? I have three candidates:

  • The number of Fused on Roshar is getting too low (It cannot be zero or the Heralds would have tried capturing some, bashing their heads in and keeping them alive in a coma with Progression - yes, war is gruesome.)
  • Fused cease to come to Roshar (This is unlikely, as it would allow the Fused to come, keep running and make Heralds return, leaving the Rosharans alone to fight. And you are not going to catch all armies of flying Fused)
  • Odium turns off the tap of Voidlight - I think that is really the end of a desolation (and I would speculate that that was the reason Gavilar acquired spheres of Voidlight for experiments)

The most important conclusion I am drawing is that the Heralds don't end a desolation. Odium does so, forced but deliberately.

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2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

So, what, mechanically speaking, ends a desolation and forces the Heralds back to Braize? I have three candidates:

  • The number of Fused on Roshar is getting too low (It cannot be zero or the Heralds would have tried capturing some, bashing their heads in and keeping them alive in a coma with Progression - yes, war is gruesome.)
  • Fused cease to come to Roshar (This is unlikely, as it would allow the Fused to come, keep running and make Heralds return, leaving the Rosharans alone to fight. And you are not going to catch all armies of flying Fused)
  • Odium turns off the tap of Voidlight - I think that is really the end of a desolation (and I would speculate that that was the reason Gavilar acquired spheres of Voidlight for experiments)

The most important conclusion I am drawing is that the Heralds don't end a desolation. Odium does so, forced but deliberately.

I dont think anything forces them back to braize. Its just that if the heralds stay on Roshar another desolation will start

Brandon says the heralds do need to leave Roshar to end a desolation

i think i goes like this

-heralds get tortured on braize

-heralds break under torture and get sent back to roshar

-because of the oathpact, odiums forces are delayed a little longer, letting the heralds prepare the humans while they can

-somehow the fused get back fo roshar to lead the forces

-everytime a fused dies they get sent back to Braize(presumably until the next time the heralds break under torture

-once odiums forces are dealt with(or most of them) the herald retreat back to Braize otherwise they will start another desolation over.

 

 

luke.spence (paraphrased)

What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end

darkanimereal1 (paraphrased)

Oh. So they've got a time limit.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again.

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)
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6 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

I dont think anything forces them back to braize. Its just that if the heralds stay on Roshar another desolation will start

Doesn't that count as forcing? Very well, let me be precise, what determines how long a desolation lasts?

6 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

Brandon says the heralds do need to leave Roshar to end a desolation

Well, it would restart. For military purposes that would be the same.

6 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:



i think i goes like this

-heralds get tortured on braize

-heralds break under torture and get sent back to roshar

-because of the oathpact, odiums forces are delayed a little longer, letting the heralds prepare the humans while they can

-somehow the fused get back fo roshar to lead the forces

-everytime a fused dies they get sent back to Braize(presumably until the next time the heralds break under torture

So why do they attack?

6 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

-once odiums forces are dealt with(or most of them) the herald retreat back to Braize otherwise they will start another desolation over.

But when exactly do they need to return? After a set time after the start of the desolation? Or is there an event that starts or restarts the timer?

6 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

luke.spence (paraphrased)

What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end

 

Exactly. The key question is when that "certain period of time that they can be there" starts. The problem with assuming that it is from the start of a desolation is that it would require the Heralds to hunt down the Fused. Roshar is a big place with many islands and high mountains. The Fused can fly. You would have to search a continent with Bronze Age technology. And I need to point out that Odium has spren that can detect the use of Surges, not the other way round. They would not find them in time.

Instead we are getting the prologue where the Heralds know that they have won after a big battle. That makes no sense if the Fused knew that the enemy is in a great hurry. They would just run and wait for the Heralds to have to leave or restart the desolation.

 

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7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. The key question is when that "certain period of time that they can be there" starts

I assume when one of the Herald's yields.  When this happens the fused can return to Roshar and the Heralds must do what they can to mitigate the damage and give society what they can to start over until their time runs out.

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Instead we are getting the prologue where the Heralds know that they have won after a big battle. That makes no sense if the Fused knew that the enemy is in a great hurry. They would just run and wait for the Heralds to have to leave or restart the desolation.

When the Herald's leave the fused cannot be reborn.  As such they once the Heralds have killed most of them they can go back.  Finally I don't think humans had many settlements not connected by oathgates so the fused can only attack one point.

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. The key question is when that "certain period of time that they can be there" starts. The problem with assuming that it is from the start of a desolation is that it would require the Heralds to hunt down the Fused. Roshar is a big place with many islands and high mountains. The Fused can fly. You would have to search a continent with Bronze Age technology.

The fused dont hide around roshar. Their whole point of coming back is to kill humans/heralds for odium

wouldnt be that hard to find

 

and as long as one died and went back to Braize another desolation wouldn’t start and thered be no point in hunting down the remaining fused(not that theyd hide anyway)

Edited by Eternal Khol
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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

The fused dont hide around roshar. Their whole point of coming back is to kill humans/heralds for odium

wouldnt be that hard to find

Nale mentions they sometimes found pockets of Voidbringers after desolations.  The fused are evil and nasty but they are not stupid.  An immideate frontal assault is not generally a good military strategy.

9 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

and as long as one died and went back to Braize another desolation wouldn’t start and thered be no point in hunting down the remaining fused(not that theyd hide anyway)

This begs the question of why all 10 Heralds stayed on Braize instead of doing it in shifts.

Edited by Karger
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2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Nale mentions they sometimes found pockets of Voidbringers after desolations.

I think he was talking about the normal singers 

“What you saw are a few listeners who remain from the old days, ones free to use the old forms. They summoned a cluster of Voidspren. We’ve found remnants of them on Roshar before, hiding.”

“The Voidbringers are not back. What you saw on the Shattered Plains are simply remnants from millennia ago. Voidbringers who have been hiding among us all this time.”

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

This begs the question of why all 10 Heralds stayed on Braize instead of doing it in shifts.

It was probably a while before they found out that only one of them had to go.

they were all so broken that they couldnt even imagine going back, so they left the one who had no choice in the matter. 

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2 hours ago, Karger said:

Nale mentions they sometimes found pockets of Voidbringers after desolations.  The fused are evil and nasty but they are not stupid.  An immideate frontal assault is not generally a good military strategy.

This begs the question of why all 10 Heralds stayed on Braize instead of doing it in shifts.

They were warned it could have disastrous consequences. I suspect the Everstorm was that consequence. And there was a level of pain sharing that somehow mitigated the torture. The Stormfather mentions this in OathBringer. 

The Everstorm is described as pent up energy, energy that had been building. Likely because no forms of power or Fused were running around using said power. I suspect it could have been fashioned long before it was, but the destruction of the Singer intelligence forestalled it for a long long time. But now that it's here, the Everstorm has invalidated the Oathpact, forcing a final conflict with a semi-neverending army of fused. 

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It seems like the only way to truly end the conflict or what the Radiants should have done after stripping the Singers of their intelligence is completely wiped all of them out. Horrible beyond words, but the alternative is all mankind getting wiped out. I don't see how you beat an enemy that keeps returning after they die. This story is a novel, which is the only reason why I'd suggest such a thing. It in no way reflects my actual morality (before someone gets triggered and tries to hunt me down) 

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6 hours ago, Aminar said:

They were warned it could have disastrous consequences. I suspect the Everstorm was that consequence. And there was a level of pain sharing that somehow mitigated the torture. The Stormfather mentions this in OathBringer. 

Yeah but taking it in shifts would still be smarter.  The Heralds in the best condition could go to braize while others stuck around and prepared mankind.  They could also swap out skills.

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

It seems like the only way to truly end the conflict or what the Radiants should have done after stripping the Singers of their intelligence is completely wiped all of them out. Horrible beyond words, but the alternative is all mankind getting wiped out. I don't see how you beat an enemy that keeps returning after they die. This story is a novel, which is the only reason why I'd suggest such a thing. It in no way reflects my actual morality (before someone gets triggered and tries to hunt me down) 

Or, and I know I sound radical for suggesting, it maybe come to some kind of rapprochement with the singers?  You can't negotiate with the fused or with Odium but you should be able to work with the singers themselves.  That is how most conflicts in human history ended.

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11 hours ago, Karger said:

I assume when one of the Herald's yields.  When this happens the fused can return to Roshar and the Heralds must do what they can to mitigate the damage and give society what they can to start over until their time runs out.

The problem with that is that the Fused acted stupidly under that premise. Suppose you are the Fused commander-in-chief. You have taken losses, not catastrophical losses but significant losses. Your enemy is on a set deadline. What do you do? You go on the defensive. That would put the Heralds in a conundrum. They can attack hastily, which puts them on a disadvantage, as the attack is always more costly and more so if it is ill prepared, they can leave for Braize, abandoning their armies, or they can allow the Fused to resurrect their losses.
There would be no good option left to them. A strategical wet dream.

Yet what do the Fused do as we saw in the prologue? They sought a decisive battle.
That looks to me like a desolation ends when another event, not a Herald breaking, has happened. Obviously that event cannot be under the control of the Heralds, else why would they ever trigger it? If it is under Odium's control, it seems like triggering it harms the Fused's ability to wage war.

11 hours ago, Karger said:

When the Herald's leave the fused cannot be reborn.  As such they once the Heralds have killed most of them they can go back.  Finally I don't think humans had many settlements not connected by oathgates so the fused can only attack one point.

So don't attack cities. Cities need supplies. Scorched earth (well, rock on Roshar). Burn the farms and drive the peasants to the cities as refugees. Exactly as they did to Kholinar. They may be mad, but at least their commanders are not stupid.

2 hours ago, Master Silver said:

It seems like the only way to truly end the conflict or what the Radiants should have done after stripping the Singers of their intelligence is completely wiped all of them out.

That is indeed the only plan that would work without the Singers' cooperation. That is possible. The Listeners did flee from Odium. But it is not guaranteed. It will always have to be on the minds of the human high command.

2 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Horrible beyond words, but the alternative is all mankind getting wiped out. I don't see how you beat an enemy that keeps returning after they die. This story is a novel, which is the only reason why I'd suggest such a thing. It in no way reflects my actual morality (before someone gets triggered and tries to hunt me down) 

You cannot win under those circumstances. Now, if you mention our world, what do you think the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction is at its core?

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Or, and I know I sound radical for suggesting, it maybe come to some kind of rapprochement with the singers?

You do sound radical, but that is a virtue. At the risk of lecturing, I need to stress this point. In war, successful strategies and tactics are radical.

You have two viable options. Options are good. It makes you unpredictable. Picking among them is a virtue (For those deemed competent enough). Mixing them is fatal. There must be no compromise. If you are willing to negotiate you must be willing to sign a very costly peace deal (unless you are negotiating as a ruse). If you decide to go for genocide, you must wipe them all out, every single woman and child and every human traitor who hides one of them.
That creates the military emphasis on following orders. You cannot placate subordinates by giving them a compromise.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Yeah but taking it in shifts would still be smarter.  The Heralds in the best condition could go to braize while others stuck around and prepared mankind.  They could also swap out skills.

Or, and I know I sound radical for suggesting, it maybe come to some kind of rapprochement with the singers?  You can't negotiate with the fused or with Odium but you should be able to work with the singers themselves.  That is how most conflicts in human history ended.

Smarter with what we know. Not necessarily smarter with what they were told. They didn't learn it was even possible until the final desolation and good people don't usually experiment with the fate of a planet's population on the line. 

Beyond that, we're not going to see the story end in justified genocide. A large portion of the point and tone is that genocidal wars aren't the answer. So of course there will be a deal with the singers. Odium and the Fused are the problem. The fused need to be given their rest. They've been destroyed by immortality as much as the heralds have, but were more hostile to begin with(likely due to Odium's influence on their minds). I would guess they'll end up released by whoever takes up Passion after Rayse is dealt with,or that by sending him away his influence will wain and he'll become a more cosmere-wide problem again. 

Edited by Aminar
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I do think that the humans have a better chance now in many places to strike an accord with the Parshmen now turned singers. Many of them share the same culture of peaceful peoples, like the Aisish. Not only that but by conquering Alethkar, the Singers have a huge empire. The Singers are in a position where they could likely get a peace treaty with great terms at the moment and have the rest of the world build them whatever they want through reparations. 

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21 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

I do think that the humans have a better chance now in many places to strike an accord with the Parshmen now turned singers. Many of them share the same culture of peaceful peoples, like the Aisish. Not only that but by conquering Alethkar, the Singers have a huge empire. The Singers are in a position where they could likely get a peace treaty with great terms at the moment and have the rest of the world build them whatever they want through reparations. 

Yep. And I suspect they'll get fed up with the Fused body-snatching them pretty quickly once the reality is figured out en masse. But we run into the problem we saw with Eshonai. The forms of power seem to invalidate choice on some level. They truly change the Singers into a different person. Eshonai would have fought her way out of that eventually from what the Fused and that Spren said. But it's hard to say how that will resolve. 

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There’s one variable that hasn’t really been discussed yet — that humans fought for odium originally and the singers fought for honor... and the Stormfather says that the fighting wasn’t a black-and-white split in the past, that humans fought for the other side in previous desolations after the shard swap. 

This is purely speculative, but complete genocidal scorched earth could possibly have already been tried in the past by Honor’s forces, aka the Singers. Eshonai/Venli talk about how the Stormfather was a traitor to them in the past. Perhaps there was a Recreance before the “main” Recreance, which caused a shard-flip before the oath pact? The singers decided to try scorched earth/genocide against the invading humans, and in the process of veering off the path of honor, lost access to Honor’s surges/spren? 

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11 minutes ago, joesleepsalot said:

There’s one variable that hasn’t really been discussed yet — that humans fought for odium originally and the singers fought for honor... and the Stormfather says that the fighting wasn’t a black-and-white split in the past, that humans fought for the other side in previous desolations after the shard swap. 

This is purely speculative, but complete genocidal scorched earth could possibly have already been tried in the past by Honor’s forces, aka the Singers. Eshonai/Venli talk about how the Stormfather was a traitor to them in the past. Perhaps there was a Recreance before the “main” Recreance, which caused a shard-flip before the oath pact? The singers decided to try scorched earth/genocide against the invading humans, and in the process of veering off the path of honor, lost access to Honor’s surges/spren? 

There was a big discussion on this a few days ago. I suspect it was more Odium betraying the Humans he brought to Roshar in creating the Fused than Honor betraying the Singers. The Fused were the Kings of the Singers at the time the Heralds crossed. If they were suddenly suffused with Odium's hate they could easily see Honor not siding with them as a betrayal. ~5 Millenia of the Telephone game later what people believe is bound to be twisted. 

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7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That looks to me like a desolation ends when another event, not a Herald breaking, has happened. Obviously that event cannot be under the control of the Heralds, else why would they ever trigger it? If it is under Odium's control, it seems like triggering it harms the Fused's ability to wage war.

I agree.  We are missing something.  Perhaps the fused think like Odium.  They just want to kill as many humans as possible to make the Herald's job more difficult next time?  But that still does not explain some things...

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

So don't attack cities. Cities need supplies. Scorched earth (well, rock on Roshar). Burn the farms and drive the peasants to the cities as refugees. Exactly as they did to Kholinar. They may be mad, but at least their commanders are not stupid.

I think the supplies are around the city.  There was an old map that only showed the 10 kingdoms capitals.  I think it was like that with settlements right around them.

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That creates the military emphasis on following orders. You cannot placate subordinates by giving them a compromise.

I really hope we get some kind of large scale Singer surrender in book 4 and that Dalinar offers them good terms.

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1 hour ago, joesleepsalot said:

The singers decided to try scorched earth/genocide against the invading humans, and in the process of veering off the path of honor, lost access to Honor’s surges/spren? 

Honor has no problem with scorched earth, well rock. Remember how the Stormfather reacting to Rathalas.

18 minutes ago, Karger said:

I agree.  We are missing something.  Perhaps the fused think like Odium.

Odium does not think like that. He has patience. We can be pretty sure of that. We have to reliable and honorable a witness.

18 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think the supplies are around the city.  There was an old map that only showed the 10 kingdoms capitals.  I think it was like that with settlements right around them.

There are dawn cities without oath gates. And aren't they more than 10? Even without counting Aimiah and Natanatan

18 minutes ago, Karger said:

I really hope we get some kind of large scale Singer surrender in book 4 and that Dalinar offers them good terms.

  1. They just finished off Herdazian resistance. They are winning.
  2. Which army does Dalinar have they could surrender to? The rests of the Alethi armies are Jasnah's or Adolin's or whoever is the new Sadeas or Sebarial's or other High Prince's.
  3. That is not Dalinar's decision alone. He may be able to promise conditions in the field, but he cannot sign a treaty.
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32 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Honor has no problem with scorched earth, well rock. Remember how the Stormfather reacting to Rathalas.

That was the stormfather the spren of the highstorm.  He was not Honor who died defending mankind.

33 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Odium does not think like that. He has patience. We can be pretty sure of that. We have to reliable and honorable a witness.

Exactly.  As long as they are doing damage they have a win condition.  They don't just want to break civilization they want to kill humanity.

34 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

There are dawn cities without oath gates. And aren't they more than 10? Even without counting Aimiah and Natanatan

Both of hose had oathgates.  Only Karbranth was different and I personally think that was a singer settlement until much later in Rosharan history.  Kharbrath as a modern kingdom was only founded more recently.  Apparently it started as an pirate and smugglers enclave.

36 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

They just finished off Herdazian resistance. They are winning.

For now.  But in battle you can't expect them to win every engagement.

36 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:
  • Which army does Dalinar have they could surrender to? The rests of the Alethi armies are Jasnah's or Adolin's or whoever is the new Sadeas or Sebarial's or other High Prince's.
  • That is not Dalinar's decision alone. He may be able to promise conditions in the field, but he cannot sign a treaty.

He has considerable power and influence.  The Azish would love a compromise, Jasnah would uphold his word, Taravangain can't afford to break his public persona.  In short I do not think this would be a major problem.  During Gavilar's conquest for example surrendered soldiers were sometimes brought into the King's army.

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3 hours ago, Aminar said:

Yep. And I suspect they'll get fed up with the Fused body-snatching them pretty quickly once the reality is figured out en masse. But we run into the problem we saw with Eshonai. The forms of power seem to invalidate choice on some level. They truly change the Singers into a different person. Eshonai would have fought her way out of that eventually from what the Fused and that Spren said. But it's hard to say how that will resolve. 

And in my humble opinion Eshonai was one of the best listeners. She was by all accounts on her way to becoming Radiant. I sort of think that Radiancy is the only true way for the Listeners/Singers to protect themselves against the Everstorm, void spren and forms of power. I think the strategy has to be to help the Singers who want to remain free resist Odium's influence. No matter what happens it will be a blood bath. Or in Kaladin's words, "it will be messy".

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22 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

And in my humble opinion Eshonai was one of the best listeners. She was by all accounts on her way to becoming Radiant. I sort of think that Radiancy is the only true way for the Listeners/Singers to protect themselves against the Everstorm, void spren and forms of power. I think the strategy has to be to help the Singers who want to remain free resist Odium's influence. No matter what happens it will be a blood bath. Or in Kaladin's words, "it will be messy".

Exceptional among the Listeners. But like the other Radiants, there will be hundreds of others among the Singers. 

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3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Honor has no problem with scorched earth, well rock. Remember how the Stormfather reacting to Rathalas.

Odium does not think like that. He has patience. We can be pretty sure of that. We have to reliable and honorable a witness.

There are dawn cities without oath gates. And aren't they more than 10? Even without counting Aimiah and Natanatan

  1. They just finished off Herdazian resistance. They are winning.
  2. Which army does Dalinar have they could surrender to? The rests of the Alethi armies are Jasnah's or Adolin's or whoever is the new Sadeas or Sebarial's or other High Prince's.
  3. That is not Dalinar's decision alone. He may be able to promise conditions in the field, but he cannot sign a treaty.

Not sure I agree that Honor has no problem with Scorched Earth. Executing women and children—- or a solitary incompetent king for the greater good??? Syl and Kaladin’s conversations on this are relevant I think.... plus we have “The Patriot” where even the Torry tells Revolutionary War Lucius Malloy that “there is no honor in this” when ordered to burn the church full of civilians. 

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Not sure if this would go here, but it is big level strategic stuff. How much more of their investiture did Cultivation and Honor pour into Roshar and fighting the endless wars against Odium. It was a 2v1 so originally it must have been very lopsided. But they must have kept getting weaker or something otherwise Honor would not have been killed. Doing that would have exposed Odium, but for some reason Odium was able to shatter Tanavast without Cultivation doing the same thing to him

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On 29/05/2020 at 5:41 AM, Master Silver said:

Not sure if this would go here, but it is big level strategic stuff. How much more of their investiture did Cultivation and Honor pour into Roshar and fighting the endless wars against Odium. It was a 2v1 so originally it must have been very lopsided. But they must have kept getting weaker or something otherwise Honor would not have been killed. Doing that would have exposed Odium, but for some reason Odium was able to shatter Tanavast without Cultivation doing the same thing to him

That raises the big question? Why the Oathpact? Honor and Cultivation wanted to keep Odium in the Rosharan system. Why?

If you cannot answer that question, I see no point in speculating about their strategy.

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I think Odium must have convinced Honor (Tanavast) to have a contest over the Roshar system, agreeing to remain bound in the system until he won. Odium knew he couldn't win in a direct confrontation 1 vs 2, so he used honor against Honor, knowing Honor would want to protect the other shards, some of whom were likely his friends. So then the cycle of desolationa started. Honor and Cultivation put systems in place to win the contests at the cost of more investiture. As more and more spren awoke, this further weakened Honor and Cultivation. Syl says spren are a little piece of Honor's and Cultivations power. Well, that isn't a ton of power when there are only a couple hundred, but once their are 10s of thousands of spren, think of how much weaker the Shards would be. eventually there was a tipping point allowing Odium to kill Honor. Even if Odium is being drained in the same way Honor and Cultivation are, if Odium started making void spren much later than them, and creates them at a slower rate with long breaks in between making them, he still would get stronger comparatively. Once he kills and shatters Cultivation, he can destroy the Roshar system and reclaim his investiture. 

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