Scadrial vs Roshar.

[RShara]

43 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

To kill even one Knight Rashek has to hit hard enough to both shatter plate and completely obliterate the skull it protects.

He can do that with compounded pewter, compounded steel, and compounded gold. With his bare hands. You seriously don't think a sharpened steel object going faster than the speed of sound wouldn't pulp anyone's armor+head in an instant?

Edited October 14, 2019 by RShara

[Calderis]

@Bigmikey357 we don't know how big a difference there is in "dead" plate. Yes Dalinar caught a chasmfiend claw... But his armor seemed to "glow" at the time, and Szeth took out a shardbearer with a single thrust as he fell atop him.

Give TLR a weapon and I don't see why he can't smash his way through on a run... A run that if Marasi with the Bands is any example breaks the sound barrier. 

TLR pushed on metal inside of a human body. If anyone can push on blades or plate it would be him. Especially with duralumin at his disposal. Flyers beware, whether that's a push or pull. 

He just has such an overpowered and versatile array of abilities that it's stupid. 

Depending on how high the "raw power" threshold is from the Heralds, I'd still give him the advantage if they were present. 

[RShara]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Bigmikey357 we don't know how big a difference there is in "dead" plate. Yes Dalinar caught a chasmfiend claw... But his armor seemed to "glow" at the time, and Szeth took out a shardbearer with a single thrust as he fell atop him.

Give TLR a weapon and I don't see why he can't smash his way through on a run... A run that if Marasi with the Bands is any example breaks the sound barrier. 

TLR pushed on metal inside of a human body. If anyone can push on blades or plate it would be him. Especially with duralumin at his disposal. Flyers beware, whether that's a push or pull. 

He just has such an overpowered and versatile array of abilities that it's stupid. 

Depending on how high the "raw power" threshold is from the Heralds, I'd still give him the advantage if they were present. 

A strong Steelpush with Duralumin can affect Shardplate and Shardblades. I linked the WoB earlier. TLR is as strong as it's possible for a Mistborn to be short of being the Shard.

It's harder to Soulcast things that are invested. The Lord Ruler held the power of Ascension. He's considered a Sliver. And while compounding, burning, and tapping, he's going to have so much investiture flowing through him that I'm just going to really wish any Soulcaster some serious luck in order to manage to Soulcast him.

Edited October 14, 2019 by RShara

[StanLemon]

23 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Atium misting puts a knife through the viewslit of Radiant armor. Radiant heals damage in eyeblink. Fight continues.

 

If they survived. And even then it would use a decent amount of Stormlight I imagine. A resource that depletes even when they are not using it.

23 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

If Rashek shows up in their midst then sure, nothing they can do. But as invested as TLR is as well as his OPness, I cannot imagine a scenario where they don't see him coming for miles away. Even if they aren't looking through the CR and seeing the disturbance in the force, they have superior scouts in the Windrunners. F-steel is negated in air battles, any Windrunners worth her salt will be able to outfly him, and if they're flying high enough He may not even notice he's being observed. 

It doesn't matter if they see him from a mile away. He can move faster enough that a casual pace is still considered faster than the speed of sound which by the way would still be considerably faster than the Windrunners.

23 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

As for Kandra being outed, I don't see the Knights bringing anyone to this battle who isn't Invested, either as a Knight or a squire. A sprenless Kandra would stand out like a sore thumb. But even if they brought servants, wouldn't a Truthwatcher see through the guise almost immediately?

This is a big assumption on the Truthwatchers, neither of their Surges as far as we know would make it immediately obvious to them that someone was a Kandra. Also, they likely would bring servants, armies need more than soldiers.

23 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Dalinar supercharged a couple Radiants and was exhausted...as a 3 Oath Bondsmith. Kaladin/Syl would have issues with an Atium misting...as a 3 Oath Windrunner with no one to guide him in what is possible for him and his surges. The problem is one of projection. We know what Rashek is capable of already. We don't know what a Full 5 Radiant will be able to do, we can only project based on what we've seen so far. We both agree that the ceiling for any Radiant is significantly lower than Rashek, so much so that a couple hundred Radiants should pose only minimal problems for him. But what will we see when there are over 1000 of them, 20% of those being Full 5 and all but a few are armored? Every one of those suited characters are likely twice as strong as any Thug and far faster than something that big should move. The non awakened version of this armor jumps 40 ft chasms and can take a hit from a multi-ton chasmfiend without cracking. Invested Variable weaponry even for those with no armor?

A couple issues here, while you are right that we don't know what a full 5 Ideal Radiant will be like, but your assumption on how many there would be is greatly exaggerated. So far only Nale and maybe a couple of other Skybreakers over the course of millennia have achieved it so I doubt it's been achieved by more than a dozen people at any given time when you put all the Orders together. Additionally, your comment on Dalinar is not likely something that was common for Bondsmiths to be able to do as it's something that took everyone, including Odium who know Dalinar was an Bondsmith and what Bondsmiths could do, by surprise and Odium even said that it was impossible. I'll admit maybe he thought it was impossible because Honor was dead but I think it's more likely a trait unique to Dalinar. 

As far as how strong the Radiants are, people seem to overestimate them. They live on a planet with only three quarters the gravity of Scadrial so there feats of strength would be easier on Roshar than many other worlds. 

23 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Inquisitors only have a slight advantage against Squires. A Knight with Armor? Let him try that weak sauce against Division, they'll burn him until only his spikes are left.

And Steel Inquisitors with their refined Steel/Iron sense could shoot tiny pieces of metal through eyeslits forcing the Radiant to use all their Stormlight to heal. Plus Atium would warn them of any dangers. We haven't really seen Division in play to ascertain what it can and can't do yet. Additionally, Inquisitors could use Brass/Zinc to mess with a Radiant's emotions which would have stronger effects on how well a Radiant would be able to fight than most people consider

23 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I still contend that Rashek is gonna need more Fullborn if he hopes to win vs. Roshar. By himself he can kill a lot of people but he's the only one who can. Scadrians don't have a weapon that can harm a Knight for long. Coins bounce off armor like a particularly annoying hailstorm, obsidian shatters, and unless an Inquisitor can punch as hard as a chasmfiend or thunderclast then they'll only get a broken hand for their trouble. If Shallan can heal a crossbow bolt through the skull a knife through the viewslit should pose only mild inconvenience. To kill even one Knight Rashek has to hit hard enough to both shatter plate and completely obliterate the skull it protects. Any weapon he could use shatters in his hands either from the force he uses to weild it or the force he applies to the target. He'd have to do it by hand or by coinshot tricks, but every push, every hit has to be of duralumin fueled strength to break armor and only he could manage it. Unarmored foes can be murdered by the thousands, hell dead Shardblades and unpowered armor was good for at least a couple hundred per battle. Armor foes will be harder. Personally I think it takes Rashek 2 punches per Knight, one to puff off the helm and another to ruin the skull. Even with F-steel it will take time. Atium obviously helps but it ain't Cadmium Bendalloy.

Think about just how powerful Vin was when she was absorbing the mists. She casually destroyed a city. Rashek is likely of comparable strength. He was able to Sooth tens of thousands of people strongly enough that it took burning Copper or having your emotions Rioted (which Vin described as like banging against a wall) to be able to not be crushed by the despair. He could do that to the entire force of Radiants and likely Riot them with equal strength to cause chaos in their ranks. His other Allomantic abilities are all likely of comparable strength. Then on top of all that he has his Compounding. The Lord Ruler along with Nightblood are considered the most powerful non Shards in the Cosmere for a reason.

[RShara]

So to summarize.
 

TLR can move faster than the speed of sound. With a moderately sized steel object, he can crush through Plate and smash the Radiant inside into juice. Not just crushed like Renarin, but turned into splatters on the ground. Not enough left to heal. With gold compounding, he's not even going to feel it. He can heal from anything and everything, including Shardblade wounds. With compounded zinc, he's going to be able to think faster than everyone around him combined. With steelsight, he can see the actual trace metals in everything; ergo, he's not going to be affected by illusions.

He's so invested that Soulcasting him is going to be almost impossible. He won't need to eat, or sleep nor will he ever feel tired.

The speed of sound is approximately 340m/s. Anyone feel up to calculating the force and momentum that a person+weapon would carry going at that speed? Blind guess: It's A LOT.

This is the description of someone with zero Allomantic and Feruchemical ability tapping unsealed metalminds of all of the basic metals.

Quote

Marasi clutched the spearhead in two hands.

And tapped everything.

Power flooded into her, lighting her up like an inferno. Snow hung motionless in the air. She stood up and reached to the belt of one of her captors, removing one of his vials of metal. She took them all, several from each guard, and drank them. She was tapping a metalmind, letting her move at a speed so fast that when she lifted her hand, she could briefly see the pocket of vacuum left behind. She smiled.

Then she burned her metals. All of them.

In that one transcendent moment, she felt herself change, expand. She felt the Lord Ruler’s own power, stored in the Bands of Mourning—the spearhead clutched in her fingers—surge through her, and she felt she would burst. It was as if an ocean of light had suddenly been pumped into her arteries and veins.

Blue lines exploded from her, first pointing at metals, then multiplying, changing, transforming. She saw through it all, everything in blue. There were no people or objects, just energy coalesced. The metals shone brilliantly, as if they were holes into someplace different. Concentrated essence, providing a pathway to power.

She was using the reserves with startling quickness. She slowed her speed, and for some reason the people beside her jumped, holding their ears. She cocked her head, then PUSHED.

The Push flung the guards a good fifty feet. That left her facing Suit and Telsin, who regarded her with horrified expressions. They were glowing energy to her, but she recognized them. They had spikes inside of them.

Convenient. Those spikes resisted Pushes, but not enough to bother Marasi now. She lifted a hand and flung both of them away by the very metals they’d used to pierce themselves.

All around, guards grabbed guns and turned on her. She swept them backward, then lifted herself off the ground, Pushing on the trace minerals in the stone beneath her.

She hung there, and was surprised to see something spinning around her. Mist? Where was it coming from?

Me, she realized.

She hovered in the sky, flush with power.

This is what Marasi could do, with a set of metalminds that could fit in her hands, and a few metal vials. She's clearly seeing more than the Physical Realm at this point. TLR with plenty of metalminds and a substantial amount of metals is going to outperform this by a LOT.

His emotional Allomancy powers are ridiculously strong. He could Soothe tens of thousands of people at once. A couple hundred Radiants shouldn't be a problem. If he did that with duralumin, he'd Soothe all of them into terminal passivity or riot them into Plate-staining fear.

On top of all of that, TLR is the most powerful possible Mistborn, short of a Shard. That means with duralumin, he would be able to Push and Pull on Shardplate and Shardblades.

Quote

Questioner

Would Allomancy affect Shardplate or Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson

It cannot affected Shardblades. Well, "cannot" is a strong word. Things with innate investiture are much more difficult to affect with any of the magics at all. Which is why it's very hard, for instance-- Szeth is not able to bind people, or Lash people wearing Shardplate to the ceiling. In the same Allomancy would not be able to Push on it without some help. Duralumin and a really strong [Steel]Push could probably do it. 

Questioner

I was just wondering if it's actually metal.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yes. It is metal-ish... it is metal enough for Allomancy to work on it.

Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014)

I just don't see a defense against this. Heck, compound enough weight and with enough iron and duralumin, he could pull an asteroid or a moon down on everyone and walk away from it without a scratch.

And I haven't even touched on atium.

Edited October 14, 2019 by RShara

[Calderis]

Not to mention that that breaking the sound barrier and seeing the vacuum behind it was Marasi just casually moving her arm. Turn that into a run. 

Then you also have just as many unexplained abilities on his end as we do on the radiants that he can compound to who knows how great of an effectiveness. 

I for one, would be super interested in what he can do with determination, or connection, or heat via compounding. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Calderis

[StanLemon]

Basically it sums up that any scenario that The Lord Ruler is in play is a win for Scadrial against...well...just about anyone. The fight gets a lot more even if he stays in Luthadel during this fight though. But Scadrial has waves after waves of soldiers and Koloss to send so I'm not sure who would win. The Radiants would have an overwhelming advantage individually but against those numbers it would probably depend on how much Stormlight they had and if "living" plate regenerates faster than "dead" plate.

[RShara]

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Basically it sums up that any scenario that The Lord Ruler is in play is a win for Scadrial against...well...just about anyone. The fight gets a lot more even if he stays in Luthadel during this fight though. But Scadrial has waves after waves of soldiers and Koloss to send so I'm not sure who would win. The Radiants would have an overwhelming advantage individually but against those numbers it would probably depend on how much Stormlight they had and if "living" plate regenerates faster than "dead" plate.

Yeah the last count at the end of HoA had like, 200,000 koloss or so?

[Bigmikey357]

Rashek moves at the speed of sound with F-STEEL. What weapon could he possibly wield that could stand up to the force he himself exerts? In Era 1? Nothing. Even if there were a weapon that could withstand his own force that weapon gets soulcasted away as soon as an Elsecaller becomes aware. At that point he's only able to use his own body as a weapon. Quite formidable, I don't disagree. 

But I'm still not convinced that Rashek can one hit shatter Plate and Radiant together without leaving enough for Stormlight to heal. I'm not sure how much of an upgrade Live Plate is over Dead Plate, but the jump from a Dead Blade to a living blade is significant enough that I expect a similar upgrade in ability. 

I don't believe someone in Shardplate can be effected by emotional allomancy, or anyone with the protection of a Spren bond. Could be wrong. 

As far as the numbers the Knights can bring to bear, I'm taking the OP premise into account, along with the Feverstone Keep vision. These are pre-Recreance Knights with full complement. At Feverstone about 200 Knights dropped Plate and Blade. 200 Knights of at least the 4th Oath. 2 Orders. Now some Orders will have more than others Obviously. Bondsmiths have a max number of 3 for example. But judging from the numbers at the Recreance when it seemed like membership in the KR was waiting, 1000 people for a worldwide organization seems like I may be lowballing the figure. And we have barely scratched the surface on what a Radiant is capable of. Half trained guys just figuring out the powers they hold are doing amazing things by any standard. At their height they're crushing most anything. 

I don't think I'm exaggerating Truthwatchers. They see. Things that no one realizes, things that are not obvious. The coming of the everstorm. The discovery of the gem archive. Neither of those instances apply to their surges necessarily but they do it anyway. It's likely their resonance.

And again many of Rashek's speed advantages are negated in the air, especially if a soulcaster removes all easy access metal from the field of battle. He just is not moving as fast or as well as a Windrunner manipulating gravity. That also goes for whatever he's pushing/pulling on. If Rashek increased his weight 100fold, did a duralumin fueled steel push, nothing he pushed using that method will be faster than he could move with F-STEEL. And he could not so in the air with no anchor.

Look, the feats we've seen Rashek perform are impressive in the extreme. There is no Cosmere character that can stand up to him one on one that isn't a God. Not the Heralds, not Susebron, not even Hoid. But we have seen him display his power mostly against mundanes. Slaughtering an army of powerless people is a breeze. A Mistborn would pose hardly any more of a problem. Yet there is a reason he tried very hard to make it impossible for another Fullborn to occur naturally. He was taking precautions against a threat to his power. He was trying to prevent someone rising that could kill him. He's never had to face anything comparable to the power he holds. So 1000 normal humans charging Rashek is massive suicide. 1000 people with Spren bonds will be harder to kill, just by investiture interference alone. 1000 Shardbearers? Harder still. 1000 Radiants with both variable armor and weapons? Some of whom can fly? Weight of numbers is gonna effect him. I don't see him winning alone.

Stormlight limitations are the only way I see Roshar losing. And if the Bondsmiths on hand can pull off the trick Dalinar pulls in Thaylen City then what you get is the equivalent of 1000 Heralds. Not too large an assumption considering that Dalinar is only on Oath 3 and the Bondsmiths on this trip should include at least one Full 5 outta the 3. Good luck Scadrians. Better get to making some Fullborn.

BTW, my personal simplified power scale:

Normal Roshan beats Normal Scadrian

Misting beats NR

Squire beats Misting

Squire beats Koloss

Mistborn/Feruchemist beats Squire

Mistborn beats Radiant up to 3rd Oath

Mistborn equals Radiant with Blade no Plate

Mistborn w/Atium beats Radiant w/o Plate

Radiant w/Plate beats Mistborn  w/Atium 

Fullborn beats Radiant w/ Plate

TLR beats multiple Radiant w/ Plate

.1000 Full Radiants beat TLR alone

TLR + 20 Fullborn beat 1000 Full Radiants

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Bigmikey357

[Knight Oblivion]

13 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Normal Roshan beats Normal Scadrian

 

This would be the opposite. Scadrians are adapted to a world with a lower oxygen content atmosphere and a higher gravity than the Rosharans. Rosharans would be at a severe physical disadvantage in pretty much all environmental situations since Scadrians essentially go through more weight training and high altitude training.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Knight Oblivion
Missed a word.

[Calderis]

23 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

As far as the numbers the Knights can bring to bear, I'm taking the OP premise into account, along with the Feverstone Keep vision. These are pre-Recreance Knights with full complement. At Feverstone about 200 Knights dropped Plate and Blade. 200 Knights of at least the 4th Oath. 2 Orders. Now some Orders will have more than others Obviously. Bondsmiths have a max number of 3 for example. But judging from the numbers at the Recreance when it seemed like membership in the KR was waiting, 1000 people for a worldwide organization seems like I may be lowballing the figure. And we have barely scratched the surface on what a Radiant is capable of. Half trained guys just figuring out the powers they hold are doing amazing things by any standard. At their height they're crushing most anything. 

One of those orders was the Windrunners, which by they're resonance and what we've already seen happening in the books should be the most numerous. Add in that 2/3 of radiants weren't combatants and I don't think this is the force you're implying. 

 

24 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Rashek moves at the speed of sound with F-STEEL. What weapon could he possibly wield that could stand up to the force he himself exerts? In Era 1? Nothing. Even if there were a weapon that could withstand his own force that weapon gets soulcasted away as soon as an Elsecaller becomes aware. At that point he's only able to use his own body as a weapon. Quite formidable, I don't disagree. 

Marasi's clothing held up just fine, so I don't think anything he's holding is going to suffer. Besides that, I still question an Elsecallers ability to do jack to him or his weapons that quickly. 

26 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

And again many of Rashek's speed advantages are negated in the air,

Bleeder was able to run down stairs at speed despite gravity being a constant, which should mean all of his motions would be accelerated, including in the air. 

28 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Stormlight limitations are the only way I see Roshar losing. And if the Bondsmiths on hand can pull off the trick Dalinar pulls in Thaylen City then what you get is the equivalent of 1000 Heralds. Not too large an assumption considering that Dalinar is only on Oath 3 and the Bondsmiths on this trip should include at least one Full 5 outta the 3. Good luck Scadrians. Better get to making some Fullborn.

They can't. Dalinar opening a perpendicularity is a new thing. What Bondsmiths could do in the past is what Dalinar did at the end for Kaladin only he tocluched him and supercharged him with stormlight and it exhausted him. One Radiant. Not an AoE. 

37 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I don't think I'm exaggerating Truthwatchers. They see. Things that no one realizes, things that are not obvious. The coming of the everstorm. The discovery of the gem archive. Neither of those instances apply to their surges necessarily but they do it anyway. It's likely their resonance.

I think trying to judge what Truthwatchers are capable of based off of Renarin at this point is flawed. 

For reference, a gold ferring could heal a nervous system hit from a shardblade 

Quote

Questioner

If a Shardblade was put through Wayne's eye, would he able to use his ability to [heal the wound]?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he should be able to heal that.

Oathbringer Leeds signing (Dec. 1, 2017)

Not all Radiant had plate even if it was available to them. 

Quote

Argent (paraphrased)

Did all orders of Knights Radiants use Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It was available to all of them, and they could (all) use it. Many Knights (not Orders) chose not to. There were Knights who were not soldiers and had not interest in wearing Shardplate.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 1, 2013)

Which fits right along with what the books tell us about there being more non-combat radiants than fighters. 

Quote

Shallan looked up from poking at the pattern spren. “There were women among the Knights Radiant?”
“A statistically appropriate number,” Jasnah said. “But don’t fear that you will soon find yourself swinging a sword, child. The archetype of Radiants on the battlefield is an exaggeration. From what I’ve read—though records are, unfortunately, untrustworthy—for every Radiant dedicated to battle, there were another three who spent their time on diplomacy, scholarship, or other ways to aid society.”

 

[Pathfinder]

First, personally I do not know why Scadrial gets to have the Lord Ruler at his full power, but Roshar does not get to have the Heralds with their Honorblades at full power when they were able to draw directly on Honor. 

Second, regarding soulcasting the Lord Ruler's metal minds. I am the one that brought that up elsewhere, and the logic was taking Battar, or Shalash, Heralds with honorblades fueled directly by Honor as they were originally, being able to match the level of investiture regarding the Bands of Mourning. That as per WoB, soulcasters are used to pushing through investiture that resists change. So by bringing up the power of soulcasting via honorblades fueled directly by honor, I reasoned it could push through the resistance of another highly invested object such as the bands of mourning

Third, we have WoB confirming the a soulcaster can soulcast a normal metal mind, destroying what is stored. The Lord Ruler's metal minds are not the Bands of Mourning. They are normal metalminds used with compounding. What I presented at the time, was a scenario where the Lord Ruler, unknowing, and minding his own business, while an elsecaller in the cognitive realm soulcasts his metal minds to another metal, and then soulcasts him to smoke. Or to go further, if the Lord Ruler is not actively tapping his metal minds, or burning them, theoretically he could be soulcasted to smoke. A Herald using an honorblade that grants soulcasting and transportation, fueled directly by Honor, to soulcast all his normal metal minds from the cognitive realm I think would be even easier. This is an extremely specific circumstance that would not occur during war, but is theoretically possible based on the example I gave. 

 

Hopefully that clarified things. I will add the WoB I was referencing when I have the chance. 

 

edit: to add further, another point I had made on that other thread is if both combatants were on a plain, facing each other, with a countdown to fight a la Mortal Kombat, then activating powers in Sanderson's universe seem to be at the speed of thought unless otherwise stated. Key word is activation. So a mistborn could activate a steel push with the speed of thought, but the coin still needs to travel right? So if the countdown finished, and the lord ruler activated steel speed at the same time the herald activated transportation to transition to the cognitive realm, then the herald could get to the cognitive realm before the lord ruler raced up and killed the herald. Then the herald in the cognitive realm, fueled by honor, could soulcast the lord rulers metal minds that were being tapped at that time. Potentially with the level of investiture that the herald would have access to, she could possibly soulcast the metals the lord ruler is burning away in his stomach, leaving the lord ruler with nothing to fuel his abilities. And then the lord ruler is soulcasted away. That was the argument I made elsewhere

 

WoB stating Fabrial Soulcasters could soulcast a normal gold metalmind and are used to pushing through investiture

Questioner

Can you Soulcast an Invested object?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it's much harder. But humans are Invested, and you can soulcast humans.

Questioner

So, suppose you had a goldmind that was filled. And you tried to Soulcast into iron. What would happen to the Investiture inside it?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the Investiture would remain in there, but it's keyed to the wrong thing, so you wouldn't be able to get it. It'd be much harder to Soulcast that, by the way. The more Invested, the harder it is. But Soulcasters are used to it, because everything has Investiture, and most of what they're Soulcasting. They deal with this, so it's something they're kind of expert at. So, this is not outside reason, that it could happen. You could give it to your average Soulcaster on Roshar, and they could make it happen. You just wouldn't be able to get the Investiture out of it anymore.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

 

WoB showing Honorblades were originally fueled directly by Honor (his essence) and WoB showing Heralds at access to levels of raw power no radiant ever had

 

Steeldancer

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Steeldancer

Like Vin and Elend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Steeldancer

The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

 

 

WindRunner88 (paraphrased)

So far during The Stormlight Archive we've seen that the spren bond appears to have some distinct advantages (i.e. armor, more efficient Stormlight consumption, access to a variety of weapons) over what Tanavast via the Oathpact provided the Heralds. With the exception of Nale, and the fact that the Heralds had no need for Stormlight, can you please tell me one way in which a Herald had a distinct advantage over a level 5 Radiant of their corresponding  order?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Rebirth. *pause* The Heralds had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

BookCon 2018 (June 1, 2018)

Edited October 14, 2019 by Pathfinder

[RShara]

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Rashek moves at the speed of sound with F-STEEL. What weapon could he possibly wield that could stand up to the force he himself exerts? In Era 1? Nothing. Even if there were a weapon that could withstand his own force that weapon gets soulcasted away as soon as an Elsecaller becomes aware. At that point he's only able to use his own body as a weapon. Quite formidable, I don't disagree. 

But I'm still not convinced that Rashek can one hit shatter Plate and Radiant together without leaving enough for Stormlight to heal. I'm not sure how much of an upgrade Live Plate is over Dead Plate, but the jump from a Dead Blade to a living blade is significant enough that I expect a similar upgrade in ability. 

 

I still think you're seriously underestimating the Fullborn abilities. I mean Marasi wasn't injured by moving faster than the speed of sound. The gold compounding would heal anything that got past the resistance that steel gives by default.

There was a plane crash back in 1986 or so, where a plane that was carrying 11 passengers crashed into the ground at about 1/2 the speed of sound. Somewhat graphic descrption:

Spoiler

The largest fragment of body they found was a piece of jaw about the size of a man's first thumb joint, with a couple of molars attached. All the other bits and pieces were scattered all over the place. One guy had "people bits" all over his barnyard.

That's less than half the speed Rashek can achieve. And with pewter compounding he can certainly hit with a large enough object.

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

First,

How would they get close enough to catch him? Marasi was seeing beyond the Physical when holding the Bands. TLR should certainly be able to see likewise.

But I don't think any of us are going to convince the other, even though I think you're seriously underestimating Fullborn abilities. We're just going in circles at this point. Agree to disagree.

Edited October 14, 2019 by RShara

[Pathfinder]

46 minutes ago, RShara said:

 

How would they get close enough to catch him? Marasi was seeing beyond the Physical when holding the Bands. TLR should certainly be able to see likewise.

But I don't think any of us are going to convince the other, even though I think you're seriously underestimating Fullborn abilities. We're just going in circles at this point. Agree to disagree.

Marasi saw the preservation and ruin that was in all people and all things on Scadrial. That does not mean she was peering into the cognitive. How would the lord ruler know to dodge around? And dodge away from what? The herald is aiming to soulcast away the metalminds first. When a radiant has stormlight in the cognitive realm, the beads rush towards the radiant because they want stormlight. So the Lord ruler can zip around all he wants in the physical, that does not change that the herald could still get the beads associated with the normal metal minds and soulcast them all away.

Not underestimating the fullborn's abilities. I had just presented a scenario where those abilities are negated. Once you reach a certain power level, it becomes an all or nothing action. There would be no drawn out fight. So I gave an example of the scenario where the lord ruler could not affect the herald, but the herald could affect the Lord Ruler

Regarding the point of my post was to better explain the idea mentioned by Karger. That is was not as far fetched as initially presented because there was real thought, and evidence behind it. You are perfectly entitled to disagree as we do not have anything concrete, but it does have its merit. 

 

edit: further, regarding what is being seen by a holder of the Bands of Mourning, here is what Wax saw when he had it:

Bands of Mourning page 406

The blue lines spread from him as a brilliant web, seeking sources of metal smaller - and farther away - than he could normally sense. At times this seemed to flicker, and for a moment he saw the radiance inside of each person and thing. It felt as if he might be able to move those too

 

WoB regarding that scene:

 

Argent

At the end of The Bands of Mourning, Wax starts seeing what seems like souls, as he’s holding the Bands. He sees lines. He ponders that man/metals they’re same thing. Is he seeing Investiture there?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, to an extent he’s seeing—yes. He’s seeing the Cosmere equivalent of atoms, Investiture, and energy waves all being the same thing.

Argent

Okay, so kind of a building block of things.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it’s almost like he’s seeing the axi, right, the atoms.

Calamity Chicago signing (Feb. 22, 2016)

 

 

No mention of a dark sun, shadows pointed the wrong way, etc which were evident in Secret History. So to me, he was not peering into the Cognitive Realm. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calderis]

@Pathfinder while I get what you're saying, this is a war situation, not a sneak attack... And while the beads do rush towards a soulcast in the Cognitive, those aren't invested objects. Investiture resists Investiture and TLR's combat metalminds are not going to be lightly invested.

He's a compounder of everything. He could easily, with a year's prep, have every one of his metalminds invested to the the point of the bands. Calling them "normal metalminds" when he has a year to prep is... Not really fair. A compounder metalminds in general are typically not "normal metalminds" because they aren't limited in storage. 

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Pathfinder while I get what you're saying, this is a war situation, not a sneak attack...

I totally agree. In my post, I explained that the original intention was a one on one battle. As I said the purpose of my post, was the explain the mechanics and thought behind the idea. To explain that the concept is not far fetched. Not meaning to give Karger a hard time, but basically I felt the concept was misrepresented and I sought to clarify that. 

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And while the beads do rush towards a soulcast in the Cognitive, those aren't invested objects.

Although true, a Herald, theoretically fueled by an honorblade, would be invested enough to still attract an invested object such as a metal mind

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Investiture resists Investiture and TLR's combat metalminds are not going to be lightly invested.

Here is where we slightly disagree. To me, are the Bands monumentally invested? Sure! They are granting the user not only the storage, but the abilities. Very strong versions of the abilities. So yes I would say the Bands are greatly invested. I still think a herald fueled directly by honor via their honor blade could potentially soulcast it, but now regarding the Lord Ruler's metal minds. I will go over compounding (not because I think I need to explain it to you, nor that you misunderstand something regarding it. You probably know and understand it far better than me. I am only going over it, to make sure we are going off the same premises.)

1. take a normal hunk of gold

2. store health into the gold. Could be 1 second of health. Doesn't matter so long as it is now registered as a gold metal mind of health

3. burn the metal mind to get a preservation fueled health 100s of times more than what you stored.

4. either use that health that is being burned right at that time, or store it into other metal minds

5. those other metal minds holding that health that you burned is a normal metal mind, no different than any other metal mind that a feruchemist could make.

 

The only thing that makes those metal minds unique is that they are:

1. filled to the brim

2. the amount is gotten for "free" from preservation as it were

 

But we also know all metal minds have a limit to what they can hold. Which is why you wear multiple bracers, rings, etc. So unless The Lord Ruler is carrying around a hunk of metal the size of a building (which I acknowledge he could do with his strength lol), then the metal minds on the Lord Ruler's person are the average metal mind that any feruchemist with enough time could make. The WoB I referenced regarding a normal fabrial soulcaster soulcasting a full metal mind. 

 

So my logic is it would not matter if the Lord Ruler had one metal mind, or one hundred. They could still be soulcasted away, by a fabrial no less. Now creating a scenario where that could be done without the individual getting killed by the Lord Ruler is something completely different. I presented one I think is possible. I do not think that could work out in the war as described because there would be additional variables. Just explaining that there was a logic, and reason behind the statement that a soulcaster could soulcast away the Lord Ruler's metal minds. 

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

He's a compounder of everything. He could easily, with a year's prep, have every one of his metalminds invested to the the point of the bands. Calling them "normal metalminds" when he has a year to prep is... Not really fair. A compounder metalminds in general are typically not "normal metalminds" because they aren't limited in storage. 

The reason I call them normal, is because they are. We did not see him use nicrosil. Could he have? Sure! But the metal minds he had on him when he went against Vin did not include nicrosil, so those metal minds would still be the same type of metal minds any other feruchemist could make. According to that WoB, a fabrial soulcaster could soulcast away a full gold metal mind. Size of metal mind determines storage capacity. Unless he carries around giant hunks of metal, there is going to be a limit to how invested those metal minds are. Again, not counting nicrosil, which we did not see him have, nor use. 

[Calderis]

@Pathfinder eh. I personally don't think there's anything irregular about the bands. The Investiture storages drain, per Wax's words. Which is why I've lways contended that they are a medallion that grants only one power. Nicrosil Feruchemy. The rest is just storage of the abilities. 

If it's just storage in Nicrosil... Then that's primarily just a "normal metalmind" filled to the brim. 

Edit: for reference. 

Quote

His resources were diminishing. Not merely the metals inside of him, but the reserves stored inside the Bands. Stores that changed his level of Investiture.

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Calderis

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Pathfinder eh. I personally don't think there's anything irregular about the bands. The Investiture storages drain, per Wax's words. Which is why I've lways contended that they are a medallion that grants only one power. Nicrosil Feruchemy. The rest is just storage of the abilities. 

If it's just storage in Nicrosil... Then that's primarily just a "normal metalmind" filled to the brim. 

Edit: for reference. 

 

I reread your prior post and I just want to ask for some clarity in case there is something fundamental I was misunderstanding prior on the mechanics of compounding. 

I always thought that feruchemy is like having a large jug of water and you pour it into a water bottle for use. Because of the large jug is "limited" you can only fill so much of the water bottle at a time and only so many water bottles

That compounding conversely is like filling up a water bottle from a hose. You can fill it up to the brim easily and fill up as many water bottles as you want. 

In both situations the water bottle still can hold the same amount and a water bottle filled to the brim slowly from the jug is the same as a water bottle filled to the brim quickly from the hose.

You said the compounders metal minds are different and limitless. Do you mean they could fill that water bottle more than normal, or do you mean because they can refill it as many times as they want to the bring without issue?

Because if it is because they could give better quality/more storage/greater investiture than normal, then I have been looking at this wrong all this time and could you show me where this is the case so I can correct my misunderstanding?

If it is because they can  fill it to the brim as many times as they want with no issue, then I go back to the WoB that state a fabrial soulcaster could soulcast a filled gold metal mind because they are used to pushing through the resistant investiture 

[Calderis]

@Pathfinder the bottle is the same no matter who's filling it... But due to there natural limitations, most metalminds from a ferring are nowhere near full. Wax is able to detect and push on most normal metalminds. He can still detect the unkeyed goldminds that Wayne gets, but barely and think it's probably the most "full" metalmind that he's ever seen. Then Marasi says this specifically about the Bands themselves.

Quote

It lay right beside her, where the guard had dropped it. Waxillium had called it aluminum because he couldn’t sense it, but he hadn’t looked closely enough.
If he had, he’d have seen it was made of different interwoven metals, wavy, like the folds forged into the blade of a sword. He couldn’t Push on it, not because it was aluminum.
But because it was a metalmind, stored with more power than any they’d ever seen.

A compounder has no need to weaken themselves to fill their metalminds so they are going to be able to be more "full" then a ferring can manage. 

[Pathfinder]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Pathfinder the bottle is the same no matter who's filling it... But due to there natural limitations, most metalminds from a ferring are nowhere near full. Wax is able to detect and push on most normal metalminds. He can still detect the unkeyed goldminds that Wayne gets, but barely and think it's probably the most "full" metalmind that he's ever seen. Then Marasi says this specifically about the Bands themselves.

A compounder has no need to weaken themselves to fill their metalminds so they are going to be able to be more "full" then a ferring can manage. 

Ok, I understand better now, and I would agree with you if it was marasi, wax, jasnah, or kaza said that a fabrial soulcaster could soulcast a full metal mind. Because as you said, they would be limited in what they thought "full" was. But it's a WoB. The questioner asked about a full metal mind, and brandon said a normal soulcaster on roshar could do it. So I would term full to an author as fully full (for lack of a better way of saying it). So to me, that is saying a goldmind filled to the brim, which is to the limit of what even a compounder can do with a hunk of metal, can still be soulcasted by a fabrial

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Ok, I understand better now, and I would agree with you if it was marasi, wax, jasnah, or kaza said that a fabrial soulcaster could soulcast a full metal mind. Because as you said, they would be limited in what they thought "full" was. But it's a WoB. The questioner asked about a full metal mind, and brandon said a normal soulcaster on roshar could do it. So I would term full to an author as fully full (for lack of a better way of saying it). So to me, that is saying a goldmind filled to the brim, which is to the limit of what even a compounder can do with a hunk of metal, can still be soulcasted by a fabrial

Fair enough, but I have to wonder then why a soulcaster couldn't soulcast a shardblade when a "full" metalmind could block one.

Always more questions. 

[NameIess]

But if TLR stayed behind at first, I can imagine the KR sending a strike force of elsecallers to assassinate him, they could group up in the cognitive realm, about two dozen or so, and soulcast his atium minds away, then he dies of old age. also, his normal metalminds are not filled to the brim, as Vin was able to see lines to all of them except the ones he pierced to himself, so he might be overconfident and not store up enough attributes until right before the battle, leaving him "easy" to assassinate.

@Calderis A shardblade is alive and intelligent, as well as being made of investiture, so I imagine that has something to do with it

Edited October 14, 2019 by Llstml

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Llstml said:

But if TLR stayed behind at first, I can imagine the KR sending a strike force of elsecallers to assassinate him, they could group up in the cognitive realm, about two dozen or so, and soulcast his atium minds away, then he dies of old age. also, his normal metalminds are not filled to the brim, as Vin was able to see lines to all of them except the ones he pierced to himself, so he might be overconfident and not store up enough attributes until right before the battle, leaving him "easy" to assassinate.

If they have no information on the other side, how would they know to do that at all? 

[NameIess]

They could hear about him from the soldiers they captured in the preliminary conflicts and skirmishes.

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Llstml said:

They could hear about him from the soldiers they captured in the preliminary conflicts and skirmishes.

No one in TFE outside a select few Terris knew about Feruchemy. No one beyond TLR himself knew about his atium minds. And with a year to prepare for a battle, I doubt he's going to be in his casual and securely ruling over a world that accepts him as an immortal God mode from the book. 

5 minutes ago, Llstml said:

@Calderis A shardblade is alive and intelligent, as well as being made of investiture, so I imagine that has something to do with it

Doesn't stop people from being soulcast. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Calderis