FictionSpren Posted October 12, 2019 Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 So here's a thought in the case that two separate orders of Knight Radiants who would win? Stoneward or Edgedancer? Windrunner or Bondsmith? I want to hear your thoughts on this and your reasoning as to why they would win. Cheers, FictionSpren2019 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionSpren Posted October 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 I reckon an Edgedancer would win versing a Stoneward. Think, If they were both below the third ideal and didn't have shardplate the Edgedancer could 'Slick' the stoneward and the said stoneward would end up head over heels. Anyone have other thoughts? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos Posted October 12, 2019 Report Share Posted October 12, 2019 The big thing about any type of match is that it isn't just about who can do what, its about how skilled they are and the environment they are in. Assuming all things being equal, equal strength and equal skill and equal amounts of whatever resources are needed for any given power, a lot of the time it would come down to the environment, or who attacked first, and how abilities interact. As we don't know the full range of powers of each order yet - for example, I'm convinced Windrunners also have telekinesis via pressure, but that isn't confirmed, and Bondsmiths seem to have the ability to boost other Knight's powers, so they might also be able to negate them - this sort of discussion becomes difficult. Still, taking that into account, I think Bondsmiths can defeat any other order except possibly Truthwatchers due to both seeming to have key leadership roles, and so probably can either weather or nullify the abilities of the others, as well as having exceptionally strong abilities themselves. Stonewards vs Edgedancers probably would go to Stonewards in a rocky, outdoors environment due to the difficulty on sneaking up on them as well as the irregular surfaces making sliding around more difficult, and giving the Stonewards a lot of material to reshape and so allow them to cut off the Edgedancers means of attack, but to Edgedancers in a more structured three dimensional environment due to their greater movement abilities, which would negate the Stonewards ability to trap them. Elsecallers teleportation and ranged soulcasting would likely be very effective against other Radiants, though the Radiants would likely resist the soulcasting to the point where it would be impossible to use it to hurt them, but they would have the ability to affect the environment around other Radiants, so that would still be an advantage. Lightweavers probably have the ability to fire lasers, so that would also be an advantage. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted October 13, 2019 Report Share Posted October 13, 2019 On 10/12/2019 at 1:04 PM, Ixthos said: telekinesis via pressure I personally think that it is more like airbending in avatar but yeah. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionSpren Posted October 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2019 Well on the point of the stonewards environment I think it would come down to how much a stoneward can manipulate the things around them and how fast. I haven't really seen a stoneward in action and am wondering if they could just... liquify. What would that do to an edgedancer? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 19, 2019 Report Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) The Orders of the Knights Radiant are constructed in a way that direct power cannot really be used to determine who might come out to the top in case of an altercation. It would depend on the nature and duration of the conflict, the battlefield itself, who gets the drop on whom, how much Stormlight is available, individual battle prowess etc. There are factors that can be used to determine which Orders have specific advantages though - Mobility: Windrunners, Skybreakers, Edgedancers, Dustbringers, Elsecallers The Surge of Gravity, granting flight to the Orders of the Windrunners and Skybreakers is the best in mobility. In addition to providing an entire new direction of attack, speed and stealth for retreat or reconnaissance, it can also serve to hinder opponents' mobility. Edgedancers' and Dustbringers' manipulation of friction to slide away from opponents' grasp (as well as, I suspect, increase friction for better grip) also gives them great mobility advantage. The Surge of Transportation doesn't seem to grant teleportation sadly but acts as a miniature personal Perpendicularity, that still makes it great for getaways though. One-hit: Dustbringers, Skybreakers, Lightweavers, Elsecallers The Surge of Division seems to be the most battle-oriented of the Surges. It is much faster and doesn't need as much preparation as Soulcasting, and besides that one certain character seems to make Soulcasting look easier than it really is. Soulcasting itself is very dangerous on the field, especially if the opponent is getting low on Stormlight. I am putting the Division Orders ahead because they also have the mobility advantage to go along with their touch-of-death. Battlefield control: Windrunners, Stonewards, Willshapers, Lightweavers, Elsecallers, Skybreakers Aside from using Gravitation to make most forms of fortification redundant, Windrunners and Skybreakers can also reorient opponents' gravity as well as make nearby objects very hazardous. Adhesion, as the Surge of Pressure and Vacuum can be used to create a low pressure area, i.e. a localized storm. The Surge of Cohesion for shaping the battlefield and the Surge of Tension for strengthening fortifications make Stonewards great battlefield controllers. Transportation can make pinning down a Willshaper or Elsecaller very difficult. The Surge of Transformation (Soulcasting) can be used to change the very substance of the battlefield. Illumination can be used for battlefield control in an illusory manner but also has the advantage of being less Stormlight-intensive, in addition to its potential to be much more aggressive due to it being, essentially, the manipulation of waveforms (think lasers and sonic attacks) Tank: Truthwatchers, Edgedancers Surgebinding seems to be an eg of a system where Paladins are the Tanks. All Orders can have Shardplate and are all equally capable of using Stormlight to heal themselves. The advantage then goes these Orders as they have the Surge of Regrowth. We have seen an eg of a Truthwatcher healing faster than even other Radiants, fast enough to survive being squished by a Thunderclast. I would say Windrunners have the best chance against any other Orders. This is without considering the fact that they can have more Squires, who are more powerful and have a greater range (can use Stormlight within several miles distance between themselves and their Radiant) I think we can refer to the Surgebinding Chart for this: the Orders at the corner are great for defensive fighting (Windrunner, Stoneward, Lightweaver, Edgedancer), the ones at the sides are great for offensive fighting (Skybreaker, Dustbringer, Elsecaller, Willshaper) Edited October 19, 2019 by Honorless 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionSpren Posted October 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 Well on that point, How would it go two of the same order fighting. We've seen Szeth and Kaladin and we know there has to be a Kaladinh and Moash/Vier battle coming but what would happen when two who could manipulate their surroundings? Would stonewards just contradict each other? And on the point of stonewards they would be rather suted to most environments as they can walk on liquids due to tension or solidify them as well. Could a Stoneward just trap the other orders in solids? (Providing they don't have division and cannot escape) again I would like to know how fast a Stoneward could liquify/solidify objects as this could give a massive edge to them vs other land bound orders. Or even Windrunners/Skybreakers as could they not make a wall verry low viscosity and as they land solidify said wall and trap them? (I wanna know about stonewards) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionSpren Posted October 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 Also can I point out that pretty much all of roshar/shadesmar is rocky outdoors environment. And Edgedancers slide so could a Stoneward not just form a pit & trap them? How much dose gravity effect their sliding whilst 'slick'? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, FictionSpren2019 said: Well on that point, How would it go two of the same order fighting. We've seen Szeth and Kaladin and we know there has to be a Kaladinh and Moash/Vier battle coming but what would happen when two who could manipulate their surroundings? Would stonewards just contradict each other? And on the point of stonewards they would be rather suted to most environments as they can walk on liquids due to tension or solidify them as well. Could a Stoneward just trap the other orders in solids? (Providing they don't have division and cannot escape) again I would like to know how fast a Stoneward could liquify/solidify objects as this could give a massive edge to them vs other land bound orders. Or even Windrunners/Skybreakers as could they not make a wall verry low viscosity and as they land solidify said wall and trap them? (I wanna know about stonewards) I suspect that the ancient Radiants held back or didn't realize their full potential. Or maybe the knowledge on the full range of what they could do, is just lost to that degree or was never made public in the first place. Tension seems like it could also be used for elasticity, if it can alter the rigidity of a structure, it might just be able to do this. Basically, they might be able to use this to augment their mobility by boosting their short range movement to jump by using the very ground as a trampoline. And yeah, agreed they should be able to walk on water. Cohesion definitely can be used to make hard substances act like liquids, instead of using it to create new solid structures, it probably could be used to manipulate the material in that 'in-between' stage. So, yeah your viscosity traps are completely workable. I think the Surge of Abrasion should be able to do more than decrease friction for sliding around. Friction is how sparks are created! This is why I put Dustbringers in front, I believe they might have complimentary Surges (Division and Abrasion) like the Lightweavers with their 'solid illusions' via Illumination and Soulcasting (Transformation) Edited October 20, 2019 by Honorless 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionSpren Posted October 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Honorless said: I suspect that the ancient Radiants held back or didn't realize their full potential. Or maybe the knowledge is just lost. Tension seems like it could also be used for elasticity, if it can alter the rigidity of a structure, it might just be able to do this. Basically, they might be able to use this to augment their mobility by boosting their short range movement to jump by using the very ground as a trampoline. And yeah, agreed they should be able to walk on water. Cohesion definitely can be used to make hard substances act like liquids, instead of using it to create new solid structures, it probably could be used to manipulate the material in that 'in-between' stage. So, yeah your viscosity traps are completely workable. But how FAST could they do this? That radiant in the vision made handholds for Dalinar/warrior person with a wave thingo. Could any Stoneward do this or is it specific level of ideals need to be reached? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, FictionSpren2019 said: But how FAST could they do this? That radiant in the vision made handholds for Dalinar/warrior person with a wave thingo. Could any Stoneward do this or is it specific level of ideals need to be reached? Probably specific level of oaths, in addition to state of mind and level of technical proficiency with the Surge in question Quote Questioner So far there hasn't been a lot of the Stonewards in the books. Are they going to come forward in the next few? Brandon Sanderson ...Yes. One of the reasons I built the structure of The Stormlight Archive the way that I did is because I knew it would be easy to overwhelm with the number of magical abilities, and to let myself get distracted by some of them and not do them justice. So I've been very careful, perhaps more careful than I need to be, and when I show like a Fused using a power, I focus more on the ones you know about and things like this, intentionally to keep the reader's attention on what they know as I expand. Questioner Can they shape stone? In one of the flashbacks they kind of melt it and it becomes sand. Brandon Sanderson Basically, my original pitch to myself on Stonewards, one of their main powers--I mean, everybody has two--but this power you're talking about was the ability to grab matter and just kind of-- like what if the whole world were clay to you. Not just stone, not just rock, but if you could just pick something up and stretch it, whatever it was, that was my original pitch for that order. Questioner So architects or combat engineers fill that order? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, stuff like that, but also, just kind of like you need to get out of a room? Well, let's mash ourselves a doorway here and step through, or just all kinds of stuff. Questioner 2 Can they do that to living flesh? Brandon Sanderson No. That's the general, the more Invested something is the more it resists, and Stoneward powers are highly resisted by things... Even a small amount of extra Investiture is gonna prevent them. Like if you stuck Stormlight in [an object], say a Windrunner did, a Stoneward wouldn't be able to change that. Orem signing (March 10, 2018) that seems to imply that it would also be evem more difficult to Soulcast or use Division on a Radiant than I thought... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionSpren Posted October 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 9 minutes ago, Honorless said: Probably specific level of oaths, in addition to state of mind and level of technical proficiency with the Surge in question that seems to imply that it would also be evem more difficult to Soulcast or use Division on a Radiant than I thought... Well division you could just set fire to the ground below your opponent. However this interests me to Windrunners lashing people and binding them... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 Lashing people, or 'Slicking' people, or Soulcasting them, or applying the Surge of Division against them might be a bit more difficult when those people are themselves Invested like the Radiants are. WoB on Stonewards seems to indicate, or rather validate other WoBs and theories (specifically regarding Nightblood, Forging, Feruchemical metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes) that putting more Investiture into something/someone that is already Invested, especially with a different Intent, is extremely difficult so as to be nearly impossible 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionSpren Posted October 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 However we have seen it happen. Mistings Rioting/soothing other Mistings. This is using investiture is it not? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 23 minutes ago, FictionSpren2019 said: However we have seen it happen. Mistings Rioting/soothing other Mistings. This is using investiture is it not? But it should be more difficult to riot/soot listings when they are actively burning metals. Merely ingesting metals does not mean that you are invested enough to resist other investiture. So in general, during a fights with mistborns or mistings, soothing and rioting should not work. And apart from copper mistings or bronze mistings to some extent, I don’t think people have their metal burning on all the time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionSpren Posted October 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 Don't get me wrong I agree, but we know that two investiture scan go point to point i.e. Fused vs Kaladin they seemed to bash heads without much issue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 20 minutes ago, FictionSpren2019 said: Don't get me wrong I agree, but we know that two investiture scan go point to point i.e. Fused vs Kaladin they seemed to bash heads without much issue. Bashing heads is not the same though. It could still be more difficult for kaladin or the fused to change the direction of gravity for the other or to bond the other... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, FictionSpren2019 said: Don't get me wrong I agree, but we know that two investiture scan go point to point i.e. Fused vs Kaladin they seemed to bash heads without much issue. That's the great thing about Windrunner Surges: For clashes involving Kaladin and the Fused or Szeth wielding Jezrien's honorblade, most of the time they used their mobility and actual physical fighting skills for the fight. When they did use the Surges, they put their Lashings on other objects to increase gravitational pull of those objects or create adhesive traps. Szeth uses this strategy during his assassinations because Shardplates also make it difficult to apply Surges on their bearer. Quote FictionSpren2019 Bridgeman Posted 7 hours ago · However we have seen it happen. Mistings Rioting/soothing other Mistings. This is using investiture is it not? The Metallic Art of Allomancy is quite Physical though, as was seen when we saw that it could not be used in the Cognitive Realm (you could argue that was just because Kelsier was a Cognitive Entity at the time, but there was also the tidbit about "the souls of men and metal" being "the same thing", and metal as being "the key" through which Preservation's power flows). And as @The traveller said, they weren't actively burning metal at the time. Things that affect the mind aren't really well defined yet. The Lightweavers are also referred to as "providing Spiritual sustenance" by cheering up other Radiants. We also saw that Shallan's use of Stormlight wasn't detected by the strange Voidspren. The only confirmed things about Investiture interference are: that Awakening a Shardblade or Shardplate is nearly impossible, as is Steelpushing it or Forging it. And that it is the same situation with Type IV BioChromatic Entities. And that Radiants would find it difficult to directly apply their Surges on other Radiants if they are holding Stormlight or wearing Shardplate. Edited October 20, 2019 by Honorless sorry about the formatting 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorkel Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 "I am a stick" Stick wins all debates. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionSpren Posted October 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 Can I ask, with Windrunners could Kaladin do his vortexy come-to-me thingo and pull Szeth towards him while in the air? Like he did with those arrows? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, FictionSpren2019 said: Can I ask, with Windrunners could Kaladin do his vortexy come-to-me thingo and pull Szeth towards him while in the air? Like he did with those arrows? With both a Reverse Lashing and Adhesion as manipulation of wind pressure, he definitely could Quote So here's a thought in the case that two separate orders of Knight Radiants who would win? Stoneward or Edgedancer? Windrunner or Bondsmith? I want to hear your thoughts on this and your reasoning as to why they would win. Perhaps, we should also consider a battle of attrition. Elsecallers and Lightweavers would have massive advantage in this with their ability to Soulcast, meaning they wouldn't have to worry about supplies. This, plus a get-out-of-jail-free-card in the form of Elsecalling (the Surge of Transportation) and the Surge of Illumination for misdirection, respectively, means that both Orders would have a massive advantage in an Order vs Order scenario. All the high mobility Orders would have an advantage too, when it comes to managing supply lines. So, Windrunners, Skybreakers, Dustbringers, Edgedancers also have a chance. Edgedancers and Truthwatchers might have less need for supply trains if they prepared right. The Surge of Progression can do more than Regrowth for healing! We saw that it could also be used to help plants grow exponentially, so procuring food might be easier for them. Bondsmiths might have an edge too. Spiritual Adhesion could make negotiations so much easier. Truthwatchers as well, although Brandon has pointed out the Voidbinding chart in reference to Renarin's visions, I think the reference might be less direct... Illumination of Progression might be what allows Truthwatcher visions. The Truthwatchers do see something. In the Urithiru Gem Archive, one Truthwatcher does say "I foresaw this". Just a theory though. Edited October 21, 2019 by Honorless 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionSpren Posted October 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 well in an extended battle/siege I think that an Edgedancer would be a valuable resource. as you said, they can grow the necessities and also travel long distances in a relatively short time. But when you say Elsecallers can 'get-out-of-jail-free' I firmly disagree. We know that to travel between the cognitive realm and the physical it requires a large amount of Investiture. In fact, so much that Elsecallers are the only known people (I think) to be able to travel between them without shardpools which makes me believe that to travel between the realms Elsecallers also would need lots of investiture and therefore would be more of a nucance in that way. To further prove my point Jasnah needed lots of stormlight to get out of shadesmar. Cheers PS stick dosnt win all debates. Jasnah dose. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, FictionSpren2019 said: But when you say Elsecallers can 'get-out-of-jail-free' I firmly disagree. We know that to travel between the cognitive realm and the physical it requires a large amount of Investiture. Yes but I really think that the surge of transportation has to be more than just elsecalling. It should give them teleportation.. and if they have that, then that makes them very difficult to beat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionSpren Posted October 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 Well if that's the case then it still needs to be of a higher ideal than jasnah and we think she has shardplate... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 Yes may be fifth ideal, then. It may be different for willshapers... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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