Pre shattering human diaspora

[Friendshipspren]

Now we know from secret history that like humans first originated in Yolen . And from arcanum and oathbringer that except for Scadrial and Roshar that humanity on all other planets predates the arrival of shards. So how did humanity spread across the Cosmere , were they technologically advanced and had mastered space travel but the shattering sent them back to pre history levels somehow or did adonalsium help them travel , using shard pools or oathgates or like with better control over the spiritual realm. We suspect that's how humans made it from Ashyn to Roshar. If so , were these humans at least at a mediaval level of tech and then somehow regressed desolation-style . I mean khriss says humanity was at it's prehistory when Devotion and Dominion came to Sel. 

Also why only humans . We know that dragons and some fain things also liver on Yolen and were equal to humans. Yet they didn't spread I think. 

Any thoughts or WoBs or theories ?

Edited August 25, 2019 by PrinceGenocide
Wrong planet

[RShara]

Humanity on Scadrial definitely doesn't predate the Shattering, but we don't know if humans on Roshar/Ashyn do or don't predate the Shattering.

They likely migrated via the Cognitive Realm and perpendicularities after the Shattering. Any sufficient concentration of investiture can form a perpendicularity, so they aren't necessarily limited to planets that have Shards in residence, if they can manipulate things just right.

We don't really know what the dragons and fain life are doing. They might have migrated to places we haven't seen yet.

 

 

[Friendshipspren]

Ah :3

Edited August 24, 2019 by PrinceGenocide
Forgot to quote

[Friendshipspren]

7 hours ago, RShara said:

Humanity on Scadrial definitely doesn't predate the Shattering, but we don't know if humans on Roshar/Ashyn do or don't predate the Shattering.

They likely migrated via the Cognitive Realm and perpendicularities after the Shattering. Any sufficient concentration of investiture can form a perpendicularity, so they aren't necessarily limited to planets that have Shards in residence, if they can manipulate things just right.

We don't really know what the dragons and fain life are doing. They might have migrated to places we haven't seen yet.

 

 

Migrated after the shattering ?? Idk , I mean wouldn't ppl on nalthis ,taldain , Sel ,Threnody or any of the other planets remember or atleast have some lore about Yolen and thier migration.

Also doesn't explain how they went from mediaval to pre history level of social and scientific development.

I'm leaning towards pre shattering migration and the shattering like destroyed thier Connection and Identity and they forgot about Yolen and the migration . Maybe they had some high level of tech but that was lost too

[Elegy]

Yolen doesn't have FTL:

Quote

EliteArcanist

Yolen is one of the oldest worlds. So, did they develop a method of traveling to other worlds like spacefaring?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Good question.

Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018)

Whether or not that means that they never had it is debatable, but to me it didn't sound like they had.

Yolen was the world where Adonalsium first created humans, but not the only one where that happened:

Quote

Zach G

Dunno if you can answer this now, but if everyone is from Yolen way back when, is there a migration story?

Brandon Sanderson

Not all humans originated on Yolen, but the first humans were there. Watch the books for myths that hint at more.

General Twitter 2016 (Jan. 3, 2016)

 

[Scion of the Mists]

23 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

And from arcanum and oathbringer that except for Scadrial and Roshar that humanity on all other planets predates the arrival of shards.

Where exactly does it say that? Rosharan humans are all but confirmed to be pre-Shattering (they were not created by Honor, Cultivation, or Odium). 

 

23 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Also why only humans . We know that dragons and some fain things also liver on roshar and we're equal to humans. Yet they didn't spread I think. 

Probably just a typo, but there definitely wasn’t fainlife on Roshar. 

 

14 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Also doesn't explain how they went from mediaval to pre history level of social and scientific development.

What makes you think that there was a regression to “pre history level”?

[RShara]

14 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Migrated after the shattering ?? Idk , I mean wouldn't ppl on nalthis ,taldain , Sel ,Threnody or any of the other planets remember or atleast have some lore about Yolen and thier migration.

It's been thousands of years since that happened. Look at our own history. We barely have any accurate records from just 1000-2000 years ago, let alone 5000-10000 years ago. We only know as much as we do about several ancient civilizations due to dedicated archaeology, which none of the planets currently have.

[Scion of the Mists]

23 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

And from arcanum and oathbringer that except for Scadrial and Roshar that humanity on all other planets predates the arrival of shards.

Where exactly does it say that? Rosharan humans are all but confirmed to be pre-Shattering (they were not created by Honor, Cultivation, or Odium). 

 

23 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Also why only humans . We know that dragons and some fain things also liver on roshar and we're equal to humans. Yet they didn't spread I think. 

Probably just a typo, but there definitely wasn’t fainlife on Roshar. 

 

14 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Also doesn't explain how they went from mediaval to pre history level of social and scientific development.

What makes you think that there was a regression to “pre history level”?

[Elegy]

9 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Where exactly does it say that? Rosharan humans are all but confirmed to be pre-Shattering (they were not created by Honor, Cultivation, or Odium). 

That's actually what he stated in that sentence, although the phrasing is a bit confusing. Except I misunderstand you and you're asking for the source for those being the only planets, that's in the Scadrial essay, stating that there are only two worlds where mankind doesn't predate the Shattering, one being Scadrial (and the other, as you said, Roshar).

[Friendshipspren]

9 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Where exactly does it say that? Rosharan humans are all but confirmed to be pre-Shattering (they were not created by Honor, Cultivation, or Odium). 

Well khriss says except Scadrial and Roshar , humans were already there on other planets BEFORE the shards arrived. Which means they were all there preshattering or that the shards created them but sent them through first. Idk sounds pretty convulated.  Why not settle the planet and then create Humans .

I really do believe that except Scadrial , all other humans originated from Yolen , one way or another. 

Oh wait no , no. U agree with me. Ok I misunderstood u , I get it now  , see khriss says that Scadrial and another planet were the only ones where the shards predated humanity . I guess since humans were originally found on Ashyn And honor , cultivation settled on roshar before they migrated , it means Roshar was the second planet . The two shards settled on roshar when only singers were there. Read the essay on Scadrial in arcanum unbounded. That's where khriss says it. I'm not saying rosharan or Ashyn humans were created by the shards. Only that they migrated to roshar After the shards settled there .

9 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Probably just a typo, but there definitely wasn’t fainlife on Rosha

Also yeah that was a typo. I meant Yolen not Roshar. 

9 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

What makes you think that there was a regression to “pre history level”?

Well I'm guessing the humans on Yolen were at least at mediaval level of tech right ? I guess the same level of development held once they migrated to other planets. Yet it's been atleast 10,000 years since the shattering and nearly all the planets are still stuck at mediaval tech ( With the exception of Scadrial of course , and the dark side of taldain , but even there only gunpowder and the scientific method are the only breakthroughs).  Ashyn can be explained away , I mean they literally destroyed thier planet , roshar can be explained as well due to the desolations but the rest , u can't explain how they are still stuck at mediaval , there are also several clues ( atleast on SEL , where it's mentioned the shards d and d , were alive and died when humanity was still in it's prehistoric phase. ) that humanity collectively regressed on all planets ( probably due to the shattering ) or that adonalsium played some joke or experiment just seeding planets with primal humans ??? 

[Weltall]

5 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Well I'm guessing the humans on Yolen were at least at mediaval level of tech right ? I guess the same level of development held once they migrated to other planets. Yet it's been atleast 10,000 years since the shattering and nearly all the planets are still stuck at mediaval tech ( With the exception of Scadrial of course , and the dark side of taldain , but even there only gunpowder and the scientific method are the only breakthroughs).

Brandon has said on multiple occasions that humans on Yolen pre-Shattering were a Bronze Age society. While this could change when it's rewritten, right now that's what we're working with and it's what the excerpts from Dragonsteel Prime establish. Humans are aware of iron and steel but aren't able to produce it in quantity, though the Sho Del are.

As for technology levels, these really depend on the planets and in many cases the applications of Investiture naturally skew the development of technology in one way or another. Scadrial had guns and steam power before Rashek's Ascension and even after he forced society to drop a few rungs on the tech tree (except in carefully chosen areas that fit with his long-term plans) the planet still has a much more advanced understanding of metallurgy than the general level of technology would sugest, because of how important it is to the Metallic Arts. In other words, they've advanced, regressed and are now advancing again.

Roshar's undergone frequent apocalyptic events that potentially wiped the board clean back to Stone Age levels, and even with time to rebuild their advancement is both hindered and helped by Roshar's Cruel And Unusual Meteorology, and the ambient Investiture. Gunpowder for instance isn't likely to be developed easily there since the higher oxygen content makes experimenting with things that burn just a bit riskier than it already is in the real world. Medical knowledge is both helped by things like rotspren (which let you see when there's an infection and whether your treatment is working) and hindered by the fact that all that ambient Investiture makes people healthier on average so there's less reason to dig too deeply into the mechanics of disease. Case in point: They see the common cold as a terrifying plague outbreak.

Other examples of advanced technology we've seen include the Mainlanders on First of the Sun having steam power, Taldain having gunpowder (and random bits of advanced technology stuck in the background of the graphic novels...) and Threnody also having gunpowder even if it's very dangerous to use and it's implied they had even more advanced technology in Homeland but being forced to flee and live in the Forests of Hell has caused them to lose some of what they had and makes it really hard to develop new technology.

Oh, and the city of Elantris was really advanced when it was functioning, using AonDor for things like light, heat and transportation. There's not much need to develop pure technology when you have one of the most flexible magic systems in the Cosmere.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Weltall

[RShara]

8 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Well khriss says except Scadrial and Roshar , humans were already there on other planets BEFORE the shards arrived. Which means they were all there preshattering or that the shards created them but sent them through first. Idk sounds pretty convulated.  Why not settle the planet and then create Humans .

Actually, what Khriss says is,

Quote

It is one of only two places in the cosmere where humankind does not predate the arrival of Shards...

So Scadrial is one of the places where humans don't predate the Shards. She never says Roshar is the other.

[Karger]

24 minutes ago, RShara said:

So Scadrial is one of the places where humans don't predate the Shards. She never says Roshar is the other.

No but I think it extraordinarily unlikely that she knows about Scadrial but not about Roshar(considering the existence of caravans between them) and her scientific background would tell her that humans are not native to that planet(no shells) so it seems likely that it is Roshar that she is referencing there.

[Elegy]

Khriss knows about the cataclysm on Ashyn and I don't think a polymath like her would even have to watch Roshar too closely to determine that the humans don't belong on that world. It can't be determined whether or not the origin of mankind on Roshar is common Silverlight knowledge, but I think it's safe to say that Khriss would have figured it out by now. As far as we know, she most definitely meant Roshar by that. And mankind arriving there some time after the Shattering is completely unambiguous, at that.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Elegy

[Friendshipspren]

5 hours ago, RShara said:

Actually, what Khriss says is,

So Scadrial is one of the places where humans don't predate the Shards. She never says Roshar is the other.

She never says it outright , but seeing as Roshar was already settled by honor and cultivation before humans ever came there. I think it's safe to assume she meant roshar. But yeah it's ambiguous , maybe the Singers had gods but like not real ones and then they saw the shards coming with the humans and were like ,yeah these must totally be our gods ??? 

I find that unlikely tho.

[RShara]

You can assume what you want, but she never actually says it, so it's all an assumption rather than fact.

[Friendshipspren]

8 hours ago, RShara said:

You can assume what you want, but she never actually says it, so it's all an assumption rather than fact.

True enough

[Friendshipspren]

18 hours ago, Weltall said:

Brandon has said on multiple occasions that humans on Yolen pre-Shattering were a Bronze Age society. While this could change when it's rewritten, right now that's what we're working with and it's what the excerpts from Dragonsteel Prime establish. Humans are aware of iron and steel but aren't able to produce it in quantity, though the Sho Del are.

As for technology levels, these really depend on the planets and in many cases the applications of Investiture naturally skew the development of technology in one way or another. Scadrial had guns and steam power before Rashek's Ascension and even after he forced society to drop a few rungs on the tech tree (except in carefully chosen areas that fit with his long-term plans) the planet still has a much more advanced understanding of metallurgy than the general level of technology would sugest, because of how important it is to the Metallic Arts. In other words, they've advanced, regressed and are now advancing again.

Roshar's undergone frequent apocalyptic events that potentially wiped the board clean back to Stone Age levels, and even with time to rebuild their advancement is both hindered and helped by Roshar's Cruel And Unusual Meteorology, and the ambient Investiture. Gunpowder for instance isn't likely to be developed easily there since the higher oxygen content makes experimenting with things that burn just a bit riskier than it already is in the real world. Medical knowledge is both helped by things like rotspren (which let you see when there's an infection and whether your treatment is working) and hindered by the fact that all that ambient Investiture makes people healthier on average so there's less reason to dig too deeply into the mechanics of disease. Case in point: They see the common cold as a terrifying plague outbreak.

Other examples of advanced technology we've seen include the Mainlanders on First of the Sun having steam power, Taldain having gunpowder (and random bits of advanced technology stuck in the background of the graphic novels...) and Threnody also having gunpowder even if it's very dangerous to use and it's implied they had even more advanced technology in Homeland but being forced to flee and live in the Forests of Hell has caused them to lose some of what they had and makes it really hard to develop new technology.

Oh, and the city of Elantris was really advanced when it was functioning, using AonDor for things like light, heat and transportation. There's not much need to develop pure technology when you have one of the most flexible magic systems in the Cosmere.

Wow that was beautiful. I learned so much . damnation Scadrial was almost on the verge of hitting 18th century level tech. Noice. I didn't know that. I knew about the guns and gunpowder but thought they were like in the 11th century level. 

 

And about elantris. Sure the Elantrians don't have much incentive to fuel technology but they are just one city and the magic is endemic to the city alone.  There are other places , Teod , svorden , the fjordell empire , the rose empire , the unknown third great civilization. Hell , even the rest of Arelon itself can't benefit from Elantrian magic to varying extents . Sure some of  these places have thier own places have thier own magic systems but they are extremely limited compared to thier Elantrian kin and again endemic to a small region.

And they are all stuck in a transition period bw mediaval and modern. The svordish seem to be making great headway tho.

 

[Scion of the Mists]

1 hour ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Wow that was beautiful. I learned so much . damnation Scadrial was almost on the verge of hitting 18th century level tech. Noice. I didn't know that. I knew about the guns and gunpowder but thought they were like in the 11th century level. 

It's very difficult to try to compare the Cosmere worlds to the different Earth technology eras.  Technology just isn't going to develop in the same way, because the presence of Investiture/magic systems alters the incentives to research in various areas.  @Weltall lists a bunch of ways that the various Cosmere worlds are more/less advanced than the corresponding Earth eras.  Also, remember that the different civilizations on Earth didn't all develop in the same order/pace.  

 

13 hours ago, Elegy said:

Khriss knows about the cataclysm on Ashyn and I don't think a polymath like her would even have to watch Roshar too closely to determine that the humans don't belong on that world. It can't be determined whether or not the origin of mankind on Roshar is common Silverlight knowledge, but I think it's safe to say that Khriss would have figured it out by now. As far as we know, she most definitely meant Roshar by that. And mankind arriving there some time after the Shattering is completely unambiguous, at that.

Remember that Roshar can refer to the continent, the planet, or the whole solar system.  If I was a Silverlight scholar, I would not count humans hopping to an adjacent planet in the same solar system as being one of the "only two places ... where humankind does not predate the arrival of Shards."  Not that she says "places" rather than "planets."

 

P.s. @PrinceGenocide Double posting is against the site rules.  You can use the edit button to add additional thoughts to your previous comment.  

Edited August 26, 2019 by Scion of the Mists

[Elegy]

23 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Remember that Roshar can refer to the continent, the planet, or the whole solar system.  If I was a Silverlight scholar, I would not count humans hopping to an adjacent planet in the same solar system as being one of the "only two places ... where humankind does not predate the arrival of Shards."  Not that she says "places" rather than "planets."

But in that sentence, she's referring to Scadrial as a planet, not to the Scadrian system. In this case, the planet is the place. So that's the scale she's using at that point. If she'd said "The Scadrian System is one of only two places", I would agree, but she means the planet as a place, so it's safe to say that, by the measures she's using with this statement, Roshar as a planet would be one place and Ashyn as a planet would be another place.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Elegy