The Ghostblood's motives regarding Amaram

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I've been thinking about the Ghostblood's dealings with Amaram, and I'm completely stumped as to what they might want with him, other than using his information to get to Urithiru.

 

In WoK, Amaram assumes that it was the Ghostblood's trying to assassinate him, when Mraize says that Heleran had sought out the Skybreakers (WoR Chapter 88 The Man Who Owned the Winds.) And there's other evidence that shows the Ghostbloods weren't trying to hurt him or have him assassinated:

 

 

For the first time since she'd entered, she saw Mraize smile, though he didn't look toward her. "Do not harm Amaram, little knife," he warned. His life belongs to another. Do not alert anyone or bring suspicion. Tyn is to investigate and return. Nothing more. 

WoR Chapter 43 The Ghostbloods. 

 

Later in chapter 88, we have the attack on Amaram:

 

 

Amaram started, freezing in place, as he saw something in the Herald's fingers. A small dart, the tip dripping with some clear liquid. 

Amaram glanced at the opening, which spilled sunlight into the room. A small figure there made a puffing sound, a blogun held to lips beneath a half mask that covered the upper face.

WoR 88

 

Clearly this is Iyatil. But I don't think the intention was for the dart to kill Amaram.

 

 

Mraize passed his blowgun to the side. The short, masked girl was there, holding the cremling that Mraize had speared along with a dead mink, a blowgun dart in its neck. No, its leg twitched. It was merely stunned. Some poison on the dart then?

WoR  Chapter 54, Veil's Lesson

 

I think it's a safe assumption that it was a similar poison on the dart shot at Amaram. Granted Shallan only assumes the poison isn't killing the mink slowly, and just stunning it, but considering the first quote on Amaram, I doubt it was a lethal poison. 

 

So why are the Ghostblood's so interested in Amaram? His connection to the Sons of Honor and their motives? More importantly, why were they trying to kidnap him? And what does Mraize know about Amaram's death? Who is it that he's referencing to, and why does Amaram's life belong to them?

 

 

Edit: I just realized that I made this post when my reputation level was Ghostblood. Unintentional win!

Edited May 6, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Left]

Ghostbloods and the Sons of Honor do Not get along well. I mean look at Heleran, the Ghostbloods sent him to take him down in the middle of a border skirmish. Amaran is high up in the ranks of the SoH and he has a lot of knowledge.

[Moogle]

Ghostbloods and the Sons of Honor do Not get along well. I mean look at Heleran, the Ghostbloods sent him to take him down in the middle of a border skirmish. Amaran is high up in the ranks of the SoH and he has a lot of knowledge.

Helaran was a Skybreaker, not a Ghostblood.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Ghostbloods and the Sons of Honor do Not get along well. I mean look at Heleran, the Ghostbloods sent him to take him down in the middle of a border skirmish. Amaran is high up in the ranks of the SoH and he has a lot of knowledge.

 

No, Mraize heavily implies that's the skybreakers, I should have just included that quote as well. Here it is:

Because you are ignorant." Mraize stepped closer to her, towering over her. "You don't know who we are. You don't know what we're trying to accomplish. You don't much of anything at all, Veil. Why did your father join us Why did your brother seek out the skybreakers? I have done some research, you see. I have answers for you."

WoR Chapter 88

 

(Ninja'd by Moogle. Probably because he's so tiny and white, he just blended into the screen.)

[Left]

He is? I could have sworn he was a ghostblood. I guess it does make more sense though, like why would you join the same secret society as your father that you hate.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Unless Mraize is wrong, or a different Davar brother joined the Skybreakers, but both seem unlikely.

[hoser]

Not to disagree, but to suggest another possibility.

I've been thinking about the Ghostblood's dealings with Amaram, and I'm completely stumped as to what they might want with him, other than using his information to get to Urithiru.

 

...I think it's a safe assumption that it was a similar poison on the dart shot at Amaram. Granted Shallan only assumes the poison isn't killing the mink slowly, and just stunning it, but considering the first quote on Amaram, I doubt it was a lethal poison. 

 

So why are the Ghostblood's so interested in Amaram? His connection to the Sons of Honor and their motives? More importantly, why were they trying to kidnap him? And what does Mraize know about Amaram's death? Who is it that he's referencing to, and why does Amaram's life belong to them?

Maybe they don't want the SoH to get "Taln."  "His life belongs to another" sort of implies to me that they plan to kill him eventually.  Keeping him alive for now could be about extracting information and kidnapping could certainly help with that. 

 

I think the Ghostbloods have already gotten to Urithiru in the person of Mraize.  While possible (maybe even likely), I don't think it is a "safe assumption" that the Ghostbloods are trying to kidnap Amaram.

 

He is? I could have sworn he was a ghostblood. I guess it does make more sense though, like why would you join the same secret society as your father that you hate.

When Heleran was killed Amaram commented in Kal's presence that Heleran had the tattoo.  I can imagine the eldest son following the father into the Ghostbloods before rebelling and joining the Skybreakers.  With the Skybreakers trying to avert a Desolation and the SoH trying to instigate one, his desire to kill Amaram makes sense.  So maybe Heleran joined the Ghostbloods for a time before the Skybreakers. 

[Numb]

Heleran joining the Skybreakers makes a lot of sense but there is one reason I suspect more is going on. Wouldn't Heleran than have to kill Shallan as she is the one that killed their mother and a KR? That seems to be exactly the sort of thing Nale would use to justify killing a KR. Later on Shallan is guilty of even more with trespassing and killing Tyn along with being an accomplish in the conspiracy to kill Amaram. 

 

Heleran seemed to both love and want to protect Shallan not harm her. Could he have gone to the Skybreakers to try get his father brought to justice then stayed as a kind of "spy" to stop them from killing Shallan? This could explain why Mzaire knows so much about him and the tattoo. 

Edited May 6, 2014 by Numb

[Moogle]

Heleran joining the Skybreakers makes a lot of sense but there is one reason I suspect more is going on. Wouldn't Heleran than have to kill Shallan as she is the one that killed their mother and a KR? That seems to be exactly the sort of thing Nale would use to justify killing a KR.

 

Self-defense is legal in the vast majority of... everywhere. I doubt Shallan has anything to worry about from that particular incident.

 

Killing her father is less clear-cut, but he had already killed and beat so many people that I imagine it might not be illegal. She's also stolen from Jasnah, so there's that. Also: not turning in the Ghostbloods, despite them being murderers. It's rare, but some places do make it illegal not to report certain crimes to the authorities.

 

Regardless, the Skybreakers would have had no ability to kill Shallan as she didn't break laws until the week or two before she left home. Helaran would have had no reason to kill Shallan or protect her from the Skybreakers.

 

One suspects that Shallan's mother was not part of the Skybreakers, though it's possible. A young child like Shallan could have broken no laws and would have been quite safe from them. Shallan's mother also called her "one of them", rather than a Surgebinder or another term Skybreakers would surely know.

 

Radiants are reviled everywhere on Roshar, so it's not like there's anything special about the Skybreakers wanting to kill Surgebinders. There's still a few secret societies we don't know about...

Edited May 6, 2014 by Moogle

[Numb]

Self defence that results in a death is pretty tricky and has quite a few different legal routes. I think with Nales manipulation of the law it's entirely possible for him to use it as an excuse to kill a surgebinder. She also either killed the other man or was inadvertently the cause of his death. We don't know of his man acted as the aggressor or only after Shallan's mother was killed unless I'm remembering the scene wrong.

 

edit: Not reporting a crime is akin to being an accessory to said crime in a lot of cases. At least in my country that is.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Numb

[Moogle]

Self defence that results in a death is pretty tricky and has quite a few different legal routes. I think with Nales manipulation of the law it's entirely possible for him to use it as an excuse to kill a surgebinder. She also either killed the other man or was inadvertently the cause of his death. We don't know of his man acted as the aggressor or only after Shallan's mother was killed unless I'm remembering the scene wrong.

 

The man acted as the aggressor. He attacked and stabbed Shallan's father, won the fight and had Shallan's father down, and then Shallan's mother came at her with a knife. That was when Shallan summoned Pattern.

 

 

“It started when she found out what I could do.”

She remembered it now. Her mother’s arrival, with a friend Shallan didn’t recognize, to confront her father. Her mother’s shouts, arguing with her father.

Mother calling Shallan one of them.

Her father barging in. Mother’s friend with a knife, the two struggling, the friend getting cut in the arm. Blood spilled on the carpet. The friend had won that fight, eventually holding Father down, pinned on the ground. Mother took the knife and came for Shallan.

And then . . .

And then a sword in Shallan’s hands.

 

As to Nale's "manipulation" of the law, we haven't seen him twist the law at all. He hasn't murdered people on "maybes" or on unclear interpretations of the law. Nalan has murdered someone who was an accessory to murder, working for some sort of criminal organization (which is blatantly illegal), and he's tried to kill a serial thief who helps other thieves break into places they shouldn't be able to by abusing Surgebinding powers (also blatantly illegal).

 

Certainly you can argue thievery should not be punished with death (I would agree, though if Surgebinders are responsible for Desolations, I reserve the right to change my opinion), but he's not taking advantage of unclear laws in the slightest so far as we know.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Moogle

[hoser]

It's complicated .

Heleran joining the Skybreakers makes a lot of sense but there is one reason I suspect more is going on. Wouldn't Heleran than have to kill Shallan as she is the one that killed their mother and a KR? That seems to be exactly the sort of thing Nale would use to justify killing a KR. Later on Shallan is guilty of even more with trespassing and killing Tyn along with being an accomplish in the conspiracy to kill Amaram. 

 

Heleran seemed to both love and want to protect Shallan not harm her. Could he have gone to the Skybreakers to try get his father brought to justice then stayed as a kind of "spy" to stop them from killing Shallan? This could explain why Mzaire knows so much about him and the tattoo. 

IIRC, nobody but Shallan and her father knew that she had killed her mother.  If Heleran didn't know that she was a budding Radiant, he would have had no reason to go after her.  Wit seemed to be surprised at Shallan's evolution and Heleran had communicated with him about the family, so Heleran may not have known about Shallan's Radiance. 

 

If Heleran was with the Skybreakers, that would suggest that Shallan's mother did not communicate with them about Shallan's development.  Could there be another group killing Radiants?

Edited May 6, 2014 by hoser

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Not to disagree, but to suggest another possibility.

Maybe they don't want the SoH to get "Taln."  "His life belongs to another" sort of implies to me that they plan to kill him eventually.  Keeping him alive for now could be about extracting information and kidnapping could certainly help with that. 

 

 

Hmmm, it seems if they had wanted to prevent him getting to Taln the one who refers to himself as Taln, they would've attacked before he opened the wall. I think more likely they were trying to acquire both him and Taln the one who refers to himself as Taln. My interpretation is that Mraize knows something about Amaram and his death, and that his death will play a large part in events to come (Maybe Kaladin? That's my interpretation.) Although I can concede he might make that statement because of someone in the Ghostbloods who wants to do the deed themselves.

 

I think the Ghostbloods have already gotten to Urithiru in the person of Mraize.  While possible (maybe even likely), I don't think it is a "safe assumption" that the Ghostbloods are trying to kidnap Amaram.

 

They have at the end of the book when they are trying to kidnap him, but not when they have Shallan infiltrate his home. They seemed satisfied with the information, but they also had dealings with him before, as evidenced by his statements. All the information that I have found is pointing towards the Ghostbloods not trying to harm him, I'd be very curious to learn of any passages that might refute that, if anyone can point me in the right direction. 

 

When Heleran was killed Amaram commented in Kal's presence that Heleran had the tattoo.  I can imagine the eldest son following the father into the Ghostbloods before rebelling and joining the Skybreakers.  With the Skybreakers trying to avert a Desolation and the SoH trying to instigate one, his desire to kill Amaram makes sense.  So maybe Heleran joined the Ghostbloods for a time before the Skybreakers. 

I

'm fairly sure you are referring to this section:

 

 

"...why Thaidakar would risk this?" Amaram was saying, speaking in a soft voice. "But who else would it be? The Ghostbloods grow more bold. We'll need to find out who he was. Do we know anything about him?"

"He was Veden, Brightlord," the stormwarden said. "Nobody I recognize, but I will investigate."

WoK Chapter 51 Sas Nahn

 

No mention of a tattoo, just Amaram assuming it was the Ghostbloods. The tattoo isn't mentioned until the spanreed conversation between Shallan and her brothers. 

 

 

Also, not to be rude, but there are plenty of threads that discuss Nalan and the legality and morality of his actions, even if it has shifted to Shallan, I'd prefer not to derail the thread onto him and the Skybreakers, I enjoy it as a topic, but it's very much off subject in this thread. There's some good information on Heleran and the Skybreakers in this thread: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7106-was-heleran-a-surgebinder/ As for the Shallan morality discussion, I don't think that has been officially created, so a new thread could be started, if you wanted to continue discussion.

 

 

Edit: Sorry Meg, just too slow on the draw.      Have an upvote anyways!

Edited May 6, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Meg]

1.

Not to disagree, but to suggest another possibility.

Maybe they don't want the SoH to get "Taln."  "His life belongs to another" sort of implies to me that they plan to kill him eventually.  Keeping him alive for now could be about extracting information and kidnapping could certainly help with that.

I agree (though I thought, "another" would/could be Iyatil or Kaladin).

 

I think the Ghostbloods have already gotten to Urithiru in the person of Mraize.

To which point in time does this sentence refer?

 

When Heleran was killed Amaram commented in Kal's presence that Heleran had the tattoo.

If I'm not (again) totally wrong there was not the talk of a tattoo in this situation.

 

Amaram was talking to one of his stormwardens, a middle-aged man with a square beard and robes of deep black.

“…why Thaidakar would risk this?” Amaram was saying, speaking in a soft voice. “But who else would it be? The Ghostbloods grow more bold. We’ll need to find out who he was. Do we know anything about him?”

“He was Veden, Brightlord,” the stormwarden said. “Nobody I recognize. But I will investigate.”

TWoK Chapter 51 Sas Nahn

Tattoos were mentioned for Luesh (steward of Shallan's father) and Kabsal.

2.

... rebelling and joining the Skybreakers.

and

Heleran joining the Skybreakers makes a lot of sense but there is one reason I suspect more is going on.

You say Helaran "joined" the Skybreakers. Am I the only one who is staggered by this wording?

If Helaran "joined" the Skybreakers that would mean or at least imply that this order of Radiants is established again. It might not necessarily mean that he's a (an upcoming) Knight Radiant himself, but that could be implied, too.

Are there other Orders yet re-established?

3.

Shallan's mother also called her "one of them", rather than a Surgebinder or another term Skybreakers would surely know.

 

Shallan once told Jasnah that the women of the rural Veden houses aren't as educated as one might think, given they are lighteyes.

And we no near to nothing about her mother: she might have seen her as different, but in regard to which standard we don't know. She might have been superstitious (thinking Shallan's abilities bring back the Voidbringers or that Shallan would be a Voidbringer) or she knew how Shallan would develop and feared this.

So "one of them" could refer to different "groups".

edit:

...

I'm definitely too slow with my posts. Edited May 6, 2014 by Meg

[Aleksiel]

I'm skeptical whether it really was the Ghostbloods with that poisoned dart. It looks too sloppy for their style or at least not how I imagine them. On the other hand, the way they tried to kill Jasnah lacked style as well. 

 

It's unclear if Amaram knew about them when he was almost killed by Helaran. He didn't consider them, but it might hint they used to be allies. But they had little prior knowledge of Amaram's plan before Shallan spied on him.

 

Amaram speaks of having an understanding with Sadeas about the goal and the use of honorableness methods for it. However the Ghostbloods showed no interest in Sadeas.

 

For now, I think their interest isn't because of Amaram himself, but they aim to weaken someone else through his death. Perhaps that what-was-his-name man Amaram wrote to before he went to get Taln. So, the Ghostbloods want to take the Sons of Honor out of the equation. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I'm skeptical whether it really was the Ghostbloods with that poisoned dart. It looks too sloppy for their style or at least not how I imagine them. On the other hand, the way they tried to kill Jasnah lacked style as well. 

 

 

The description of the person firing the blow gun matches Iyatil, and Mraize was using one in both meetings that Veil attended, which might have been Iyatil training him on it, since she's the one who performed the hit. Also, it would have worked if it wasn't for Taln the one who refers to himself as Taln catching the darts. Also, are you referring to Kabsal, or Tyn's men? Kabsal I thought had flair, and was quite clever, but I agree with hiring Tyn's men. 

 

 

 

 

It's unclear if Amaram knew about them when he was almost killed by Helaran. He didn't consider them, but it might hint they used to be allies. But they had little prior knowledge of Amaram's plan before Shallan spied on him.

 

 

Didn't know about who? He flat out accuses the Ghostbloods, and links Thaidakar to them as well, who is the first person Gavilar suspects of assassinating him. We also have no idea what they did and did not know before Shallan. It seems they've had dealings before. 

 

 

 

Amaram speaks of having an understanding with Sadeas about the goal and the use of honorableness methods for it. However the Ghostbloods showed no interest in Sadeas.

 

 

"Sadeas and I agree that the means we choose to reach an honorable goal are allowed to be distasteful. Your father and I agree on what that goal should be-a better Alethkar, a place without all of this squabbling. It is a matter of perspective. . ."

WoR Chapter 37 A Matter of Perspective  (That worked out neatly.)

 

He shares a goal with Dalinar, and a methodology with Sades. We know from Sadea's perspective that he's only playing on the level of kingdoms, and not on the world scale like the Sons of Honor and Ghostbloods seem to play. Sadeas is inconsequential. 

 

 

 

For now, I think their interest isn't because of Amaram himself, but they aim to weaken someone else through his death. Perhaps that what-was-his-name man Amaram wrote to before he went to get Taln. So, the Ghostbloods want to take the Sons of Honor out of the equation. 

Restares...interesting..also note that he is another person that Gavilar thought could be behind his death. But I'm still convinced they wanted to kidnap Amaram, and not kill him. 

[Aleksiel]

...

 

Ah, I forgot he mentioned the Ghostbloods after Helaran's death, my bad.

 

If the Ghostbloods want to weaken Restaras, kidnapping Amaram to interrogate him works even better than killing him on the spot if they don't have enough intelligence on Restaras/the Sons of Honor. They seemed too interested in Amaram's plans and actions to simply want to murder him, so I agree with you.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Numb]

You say Helaran "joined" the Skybreakers. Am I the only one who is staggered by this wording?

If Helaran "joined" the Skybreakers that would mean or at least imply that this order of Radiants is established again. It might not necessarily mean that he's a (an upcoming) Knight Radiant himself, but that could be implied, too.

Are there other Orders yet re-established?

 

 

When we talk about the Skybreakers we aren't talking about the actual bonded  KR. Instead talking about the assumed secrect society that Nale seems to be the head of. The reason for this is that Nale tells Szeth he's to join the Skybreakers but we know of no bonded spren and the other minions of Nale's seem to use deadspren blades much like Helaran did. Don't think anyone is implying he was actually a Skybreaker or that real Radiant Skybreakers are back. 

[Moogle]

When we talk about the Skybreakers we aren't talking about the actual bonded  KR. Instead talking about the assumed secrect society that Nale seems to be the head of. The reason for this is that Nale tells Szeth he's to join the Skybreakers but we know of no bonded spren and the other minions of Nale's seem to use deadspren blades much like Helaran did. Don't think anyone is implying he was actually a Skybreaker or that real Radiant Skybreakers are back. 

 

There is this WoB, which suggests something slightly different:

Q: Does Szeth have any Surgebinding powers . . . losing the honorblade?

A: He would not have any after losing the honorblade. However, he has been approached by a member of one of the orders. And so, it's entirely possible that you would see him going somewhere with that. He also has a very special sword, that does very special things.

(source)

 

I would find it not-out-of-character for the Skybreakers to still be around. Jasnah talks to the highspren (likely the Skybreaker spren) who have plenty of pre-Recreance knowledge, despite the fact that most spren died in the Recreance. One of the orders practiced great deception, apparently, and if I had to guess as to a Radiant Order that didn't break their oaths, I'd look at Szeth and say Skybreakers.

 

I'm also a fan of the theory (forget who came up with it) that the Skybreakers didn't break their oaths, but killed their spren. They avoid the Desolations, but stayed organized and still follow their oaths. Just... with dead spren.

 

Amaram's Blade did not have a known history behind it. It had to come from somewhere. I wonder if Nalan has a cache or something...

Edited May 6, 2014 by Moogle

[Meg]

@ Numb: Thanks for clarification.

Though I don't want to seem unappreciative, re-reading this thread (especially post #4 and it's quotes) one might say the Skybreakers are kind of re-established yet though Nale's minions seem to be "squires" not Radiants.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Once again, not trying to be rude, but this is all off topic. There is great discussion about Heleran and the Skybreakers along these lines here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7106-was-heleran-a-surgebinder/  I have my own theory in there as well, very similar to Moogle's but this isn't the place for that discussion, as much as I enjoy the mystery of Helaran (the only questions I asked Brandon when I met him were on the subject of Helaran and his blade being unique,) this thread is about the Ghostbloods and Amaram. 

[Numb]

Hmm sounds more like an issue with naming then. Do we call the Skybreakers a radiant order if they no longer have nahel bonds? I read that WoB as more Nale inherently being part of the Skybreaker order as he's a Herald not that the order itself exists as a Radiant order. The Highspren being around suggests that the Skybreakers in fact didn't break their oaths and instead died out naturally. This would mean their spren survived. Another possible explanation is that many of them died before the actual Recreance happened. The difference with a combat order(Skybreakers) vs non-combat(Lightweavers) may account for different in spren deaths.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Numb

[Meg]

My guess is that the Ghostbloods think that Amaram still has some knowledge which is wanted by the Ghostbloods. In addition they might have other goals than Amaram even if either of them are searching for Urithiru. Kidnapping him for interrogation doesn't necessarily exclude that they wouldn't kill him when he's of no more worth for them.

[pdavidc222]

Heleran joining the Skybreakers makes a lot of sense but there is one reason I suspect more is going on. Wouldn't Heleran than have to kill Shallan as she is the one that killed their mother and a KR? That seems to be exactly the sort of thing Nale would use to justify killing a KR. Later on Shallan is guilty of even more with trespassing and killing Tyn along with being an accomplish in the conspiracy to kill Amaram. 

 

Heleran seemed to both love and want to protect Shallan not harm her. Could he have gone to the Skybreakers to try get his father brought to justice then stayed as a kind of "spy" to stop them from killing Shallan? This could explain why Mzaire knows so much about him and the tattoo. 

I wonder which organization Shallan's mother was part of, that she had such extreme views as to justify killing Shallan. Was she a skybreaker?

[maxal]

I wonder which organization Shallan's mother was part of, that she had such extreme views as to justify killing Shallan. Was she a skybreaker?

 

Which law did little Shallan broke that would warranty her an execution by a Skybreaker?