Ym, the Truthwatcher, why?

[maxal]

Alright.

 

This was a thread that started on the Stormlight Archive main forum. Due to spoiler constraints, it was suggested I re-post my questioning here.

 

Bottom line is we know Ym is, most likely, a Truthwatcher, Some people can argue he was an Edgedancer. Either way, it doesn't matter for this thread purposes. What we do know is he used Progression to heal the young boy which makes him a member of either one of these orders.

 

We also know Ym died at the end of the interlude.

 

We can also guess Brandon included this interlude to give us a perspective on Iri and the One.

 

Now, what I wonder about is why does Ym have to be a Truthwatcher/Edgedancer? We already have one of each (Renarin and Lift). What is the purpose to introduce one character, albeit for a small amount of time, from an already represented order? If the purpose of the interlude was simply to mention Iri, than Ym could have been from any other order we haven't heard of.

 

Why the redundancy?

 

We know there were only a limited amount of sprens that made to Roshar so why is it the Truthwatchers (who appear to be a very secretive, weird and infuriating order with probably only a few members) sent two? And for a story point of vue, what was the goal in writing such a thing?

 

Thoughts?

Edited May 4, 2014 by maxal

[Aleksiel]

Perhaps Ym's spren later formed a bond with Renarin. 

 

Not all spren are prohibited to come to Roshar. So, it's understandable to have only one honorsper, but it's also reasonable to think there will be more than one Edgedancer (for example) because Wyndle was send and it's not stated he'd be the only one. 

 

Ym's interlude is before Lift's, right? May be it was intended to show us re-growth before it was used for awesomeness.Of course, Ym's interlude also served the purpose of getting a better idea who Darkness was.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Aleksiel

[maxal]

I do not think Ym's spren is Glys. Renarin most likely had his spren for a long time, albeit since childhood if I base myself on the discussion we had on him. Therefore, it is not possible for Glys to the be the same spren that bonded Ym. It most be another one. Now knowing Truthwatchers are sort of secretive weirdos, it doesn't make sense to me for them to send more than one spren when all other orders we have met have sent only one...

 

I get the idea of showing us regrowth, but still... He could have made Ym a Willshaper, a Stoneward or a Dustbringer, ie any currently unrepresented order. If the purpose was to introduce Darkness, than Ym could have been a member of any other order.. Unless Brandon wanted a particularly defenseless order, than Truthwatcher makes sense as they have little combat abilities.

 

I am a strong supporter of getting only one character per order for at least the first 5 books, therefore Ym is sort of confusion for me.

[Aleksiel]

I think Renarin doesn't have a bond before WoR. His eyesight heals after the first third of the book, so his bond with Glys is fairly new. 

 

Brandon likes foreshadowing (which is why reviving Szeth took me by surprise), so it's his style to show us re-growth before it solves any problem. It could also be meant to hint there will be a second Truthwatcher/Edgedancer in the next book.

[maxal]

I think Renarin doesn't have a bond before WoR. His eyesight heals after the first third of the book, so his bond with Glys is fairly new. 

 

Brandon likes foreshadowing (which is why reviving Szeth took me by surprise), so it's his style to show us re-growth before it solves any problem. It could also be meant to hint there will be a second Truthwatcher/Edgedancer in the next book.

 

Which leads us back to Lirin being a surgebinder I don't know how I would like this come true.

[Iarwainiel I]

Brandon has said that each of the 10 books will focus on one of the Orders, and that the main PoV character in that book will be from that order.

 

However, there's no reason to think that any given book will contain one-apiece for the 10 KR Orders. I think Brandon will just create whatever characters, in whatever Orders (or non-Orders), that he needs to tell the story best.

 

I think we'll ultimately have dozens if not hundreds, of KRs from each of the Orders, though not all wil be main or PoV characters.

 

Look at the Wheel of Time: you had gobs of Aes Sedai from every ajah - I think it'll be something like that, once the conflict intensifies and Surgebinders start popping up everywhere ... there'll be too many for Darkness to nip all of them in the bud. :-)

 

The only Order that we "know" had a limited number of members historically (from the Chapter 44 epigraph) is Bondsmiths. I say "know" because we don't really know if the in-world Words of Radiance book is reliable or not.

 

There are several other threads where folks are thinking that there can only be one character for a particular Order, @maxal, so you're not alone in your reasoning, & maybe I'll be proven wrong.

 

Oh - and I like your idea re: Lirin!! It would be too sweet if that was part of the Stormfather's meaning when he called Kaladin a "Child of Honor."

Edited May 5, 2014 by old aggie

[maxal]

Brandon has said that each of the 10 books will focus on one of the Orders, and that the main PoV character in that book will be from that order.

 

 

This cannot be.

 

We know book 4 is about Eshonai, but whereas there as strong arguments for her to become a KR, there are also strong arguments for her not to become one. She is Parshendi and Parshendi have previously not been allowed to become KR. I know Brandon said it may change, but still. Eshonai as KR certainly isn't confirmed and it's a medium shot. We also have to considered all the bad things she indeed do.

 

I am not also convinced Szeth will become a "real" Skybreaker. He may be a law follower to the bone, but he is crazy and a cold blooded murderer. I would rather he dies for real at the end of book 3 and have some unknown character for a Skybreaker.

 

As for the last 5 books, I keep reading different things, but one option is to have a book on Mr T. I think we can all agree that Mr T will never be a KR. Besides, if Eshonai indeed is a KR and if she indeed is a Willshaper as most theories about her think, than our last order would be the Dustbringer. Even if there were the slightest possibility that Mr T would become a KR (how anti-climatic and awful would that be), he most certainly wouldn't be a Dustbringer.

 

Therefore, I can only conclude it is not given the flashback in a book will be about the KR from the featured order.

 

Wheel of Time is not a good example... I think we can all agree there were far too many Aes Sedai.

[Lightsworn Panda]

i reckon Brandon added the interlude to show us the goal and lethality of Bent Nale (He he. It's pronounced in my mind as Bent Nail). It was probably also to show us that even KR can die.

 

 

 

Wheel of Time is not a good example... I think we can all agree there were far too many Aes Sedai.

Yep. Waaay too much.

 

Edit: Oh yay! My 100th post!

Edited May 5, 2014 by Lightsworn Panda

[Frostlander]

That's a good question, and I suspect that it is a combination of introducing Nalan/showing regrowth before Lift used it and wanting to preserve some mystery about the remaining orders. We know something about or have been introduced to Windrunners, Lightweavers, Bondsmiths, Elsecallers, Truthwatchers, and Edgedancers.

 

We'll be learning a lot more about Skybreakers (who for now are mysterious) in the next book. Dustbringers, Willshapers, and Stonewards are the only three that he still has in his pocket by the end of WoR. From a narrative standpoint, he would lose the ability to surprise us with those remaining orders if he spent another one on a single interlude. I think it actually makes more sense to do it this way. 

[PorridgeBrick]

Brandon has said that each of the 10 books will focus on one of the Orders, and that the main PoV character in that book will be from that order.

I don't believe he's ever confirmed that exactly. He's more said that each book will be themed about one of the orders. It could be that each main character will be from that order, but he's never outright said that.

Edit: Oh, and Maxal, the only confirmed MCs for the second half of Stormlight are Jasnah, Renarin, Lift and Taln. Mr. T is a pretty unlikely candidate for that last spot. Brandon has talked a little in the past about another Herald being one of the last five, but it's unknown if that's still happening. If it is, then that last Herald would pretty much have to be Chach.

Edited May 5, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Eri]

Actually… how sure are we that Renarin really is a Truthwatcher? He says so, yeah, and he has some powers, sees the future… since when seeing the future is a KR ability? It seems to belong more to another kind of magic users… And we never see his spren. Or what's in the box.

[Sylveris]

@Eri,

All we know for sure is that Honor was bad at seeing the future, and that Odium and Cultivation where likely better than him at it. If Truthwatcher are indeed more Cultivation oriented than Honor oriented, than it makes sense that from all the orders, Truthwatchers will be able to see the future.

The whole thing about seen the future being of Odium is likely more of a religious superstition, since in-world WoR did say that Truthwatchers were secretive, while voidbinding=futuresight was more of a common knowledge (be it true or false)

[Sphinx]

I get the idea of showing us regrowth, but still... He could have made Ym a Willshaper, a Stoneward or a Dustbringer, ie any currently unrepresented order. If the purpose was to introduce Darkness, than Ym could have been a member of any other order.. Unless Brandon wanted a particularly defenseless order, than Truthwatcher makes sense as they have little combat abilities.

 

I am a strong supporter of getting only one character per order for at least the first 5 books, therefore Ym is sort of confusion for me.

 

 

See, I kind of interpreted this interlude as being meant to show us that there are Nahel bonds forming all over Roshar, and that not all spren are the sole representatives of their kind. (Though we do know Syl's the only honour spren currently). That Ym's spren is a duplicate of either Glys or Wyndle is revealing, and tells us something different than if Ym's spren had not been a duplicate. We can therefore assume that Brandon wanted this revealed, and that Brandon is not a strong supporter of getting only one character per order for at least the first 5 books.

 

If Ym had been, say, a Willshaper, we'd have all sorts of theories floating around about what it meant that "the" Willshaper had been killed, if that was going to be a problem, what that would mean for the other orders and Odium, if his spren was going to bond someone else, if he had somehow secretly survived, if he would be showing up again, etc, etc. We'd have even more people shutting down the idea that x can be a member of the same order as y using the anomalous Syl and an argument from silence as their basis. Having confirmation that there are spren groups with multiple representatives redirects our speculations, reveals the possibility of more duplicates showing up, leaves certain unknown orders still mysterious, and gives us more options to speculate as to which order x will become a part of.

 

It would have been nice to get more information about an order we don't know very much about. Clearly that's not what Brandon wanted to do with Ym's interlude.

 

 

Brandon has said that each of the 10 books will focus on one of the Orders, and that the main PoV character in that book will be from that order.

 

The closest WoB we have for this is:

Q:  Are the rest of the books in the Stormlight Archive going to be different colors?

A:  They are, and you can actually match the color to the order of the Knights Radiant.  That's the Windrunners[WoK], that's the symbol of the Windrunners, that's the color. That's the Lightweavers[WoR], and that's the symbol of the Lightweavers, which is the same, and the color.

Which confirms the first half of the sentence. The second half is entirely speculation, unless you have a WoB to back it up. We know each book has a main PoV character, each book focuses on an order, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that PoV character is from that Order. So far that has been the case, but we know that Eshonai and somewhere between 0 (if Taln =/= Taln) and 2 (if Taln is Taln + other main Herald) of the Heralds were at one point being considered for flashback characters. Under what definition of Skybreaker Szeth counts as a member of the Order is also still being debated.

[Bloodfalcon]

This cannot be.

 

We know book 4 is about Eshonai, but whereas there as strong arguments for her to become a KR, there are also strong arguments for her not to become one. She is Parshendi and Parshendi have previously not been allowed to become KR. I know Brandon said it may change, but still. Eshonai as KR certainly isn't confirmed and it's a medium shot. We also have to considered all the bad things she indeed do.

 

I am not also convinced Szeth will become a "real" Skybreaker. He may be a law follower to the bone, but he is crazy and a cold blooded murderer. I would rather he dies for real at the end of book 3 and have some unknown character for a Skybreaker.

 

As for the last 5 books, I keep reading different things, but one option is to have a book on Mr T. I think we can all agree that Mr T will never be a KR. Besides, if Eshonai indeed is a KR and if she indeed is a Willshaper as most theories about her think, than our last order would be the Dustbringer. Even if there were the slightest possibility that Mr T would become a KR (how anti-climatic and awful would that be), he most certainly wouldn't be a Dustbringer.

 

Therefore, I can only conclude it is not given the flashback in a book will be about the KR from the featured order.

*sigh*..... It can be. Very easily. You've convinced yourself that you prefer a different outline, but it is very possible that Eshonai becomes a KR. In fact, Brandon is deliberately including phrases that indicate no Parshendii has been a KR before, but it is possible. He mentions that every time someone asks on this subject. If anything it indicates that she most likely will be a Radiant. And I don't have the quote that explains what each book will focus on, but if Eshonai has a book and each book's main character is from an Order of KR, then we are fooling ourselves if we think she won't be a Radiant. 

It's very possible, it's just not what you would prefer.

 

Wheel of Time is not a good example... I think we can all agree there were far too many Aes Sedai.

Wheel of Time is an excellent example. Brandon draws a lot of inspiration from it, and more than that, each story expressly stated that in the times leading up to the [big event], a massive influx of [magic users] would occur. There weren't too many Aes Sedai, there were just too many named Aes Sedai that we wanted to keep track of but just couldn't. If there were 2000 Knights Radiant and we were only ever meant to keep track of 20 of them, that would be fine. 

[Pathfinder]

Ok, this is killing me, and apparently is all in my head, but I could have sworn Renarian mentions Ym at some point. I thought it was at the end of WoR, but I did a search for Ym in my nook and nothing came up in that regard. I thought Renarian said that Ym mentioned something about what is happening. If this isn't some crazy thought in my head and is actually reality then that is why I think Ym was mentioned. That in a way he trained Renarian a bit at some point and that will be brought up if Renarian gets a flash back book. Does anyone know the scene I am referring to?  I need to look more in depth to see if I can still find it, but so far I found nothing and I could have sworn that it did in fact happen. 

[maxal]

*sigh*..... It can be. Very easily. You've convinced yourself that you prefer a different outline, but it is very possible that Eshonai becomes a KR. In fact, Brandon is deliberately including phrases that indicate no Parshendii has been a KR before, but it is possible. He mentions that every time someone asks on this subject. If anything it indicates that she most likely will be a Radiant. And I don't have the quote that explains what each book will focus on, but if Eshonai has a book and each book's main character is from an Order of KR, then we are fooling ourselves if we think she won't be a Radiant. 

It's very possible, it's just not what you would prefer.

 

Wheel of Time is an excellent example. Brandon draws a lot of inspiration from it, and more than that, each story expressly stated that in the times leading up to the [big event], a massive influx of [magic users] would occur. There weren't too many Aes Sedai, there were just too many named Aes Sedai that we wanted to keep track of but just couldn't. If there were 2000 Knights Radiant and we were only ever meant to keep track of 20 of them, that would be fine. 

 

I am not convinced of anything, I am merely speculating. It is true I have some wishes as for the outlay of the series, who doesn't? We all have our favorite theories and characters.

 

However, based on the clues we have, we cannot, at this stage, conclude without a doubt that Eshonai will be a Radiant. It is likely, but not firm. There are a lot of cons. After, if you go back and read what people thought would happen in WoR, at least half of it is wrong. In fact, it would be pretty damnation predictable if Ehsonai became the Willshaper as everyone thinks.

 

It is not confirmed either that Szeth will truly be a Skybreaker. We know the next book is about him and we know the next book will talk about Sybreakers, but will that mean Szeth will be one of the ten persons in Dalinar's vision? No. There is also a strong case against him. It is true I do not like him and that I have a preferred plot, but again who doesn't?

 

Also, if the last book is still unknown than we cannot draw any conclusions. As far as I know, we have still have unknowns as to who our "main" Willshaper, Dustbringer, Skybreaker and Stoneward (Taln won't be our main Stoneward, he is a Herald) will be. The others are all pretty set.

Edited May 5, 2014 by maxal

[maxal]

See, I kind of interpreted this interlude as being meant to show us that there are Nahel bonds forming all over Roshar, and that not all spren are the sole representatives of their kind. (Though we do know Syl's the only honour spren currently). That Ym's spren is a duplicate of either Glys or Wyndle is revealing, and tells us something different than if Ym's spren had not been a duplicate. We can therefore assume that Brandon wanted this revealed, and that Brandon is not a strong supporter of getting only one character per order for at least the first 5 books.

 

If Ym had been, say, a Willshaper, we'd have all sorts of theories floating around about what it meant that "the" Willshaper had been killed, if that was going to be a problem, what that would mean for the other orders and Odium, if his spren was going to bond someone else, if he had somehow secretly survived, if he would be showing up again, etc, etc. We'd have even more people shutting down the idea that x can be a member of the same order as y using the anomalous Syl and an argument from silence as their basis. Having confirmation that there are spren groups with multiple representatives redirects our speculations, reveals the possibility of more duplicates showing up, leaves certain unknown orders still mysterious, and gives us more options to speculate as to which order x will become a part of.

 

It would have been nice to get more information about an order we don't know very much about. Clearly that's not what Brandon wanted to do with Ym's interlude.

 

 

This makes sense. If Ym had been a Willshaper (for example), we would have wondered about his spren. Now we don't or not so much. I suppose it also means my pet theory about getting only one character per order until book 6 is false. Oh well.

[Bloodfalcon]

I am not convinced of anything, I am merely speculating. It is true I have some wishes as for the outlay of the series, who doesn't? We all have our favorite theories and characters.

 

However, based on the clues we have, we cannot, at this stage, conclude without a doubt that Eshonai will be a Radiant. It is likely, but not firm. There are a lot of cons. After, if you go back and read what people thought would happen in WoR, at least half of it is wrong. In fact, it would be pretty damnation predictable if Ehsonai became the Willshaper as everyone thinks.

 

It is not confirmed either that Szeth will truly be a Skybreaker. We know the next book is about him and we know the next book will talk about Sybreakers, but will that mean Szeth will be one of the ten persons in Dalinar's vision? No. There is also a strong case against him. It is true I do not like him and that I have a preferred plot, but again who doesn't?

 

Also, if the last book is still unknown than we cannot draw any conclusions. As far as I know, we have still have unknowns as to who our "main" Willshaper, Dustbringer, Skybreaker and Stoneward (Taln won't be our main Stoneward, he is a Herald) will be. The others are all pretty set.

Exactly my point. Don't say things cannot be when they clearly can be. We have unknowns.

[maxal]

Exactly my point. Don't say things cannot be when they clearly can be. We have unknowns.

 

Hum, I failed to see where I said that. Really. We are just discussing here and it is clear anything anyone says is up for grab unless it is supported by either canon or Brandon    Someone mentioned each book will feature one character from each order. I mentioned we did not know that for sure, in fact there is a strong chance it won't which was the essence of my argumentation.

 

You can agree or disagree, but I what I feel here is some sort of anger and it puzzles me. It shouldn't be

[Pathfinder]

This cannot be.

 

We know book 4 is about Eshonai, but whereas there as strong arguments for her to become a KR, there are also strong arguments for her not to become one. She is Parshendi and Parshendi have previously not been allowed to become KR. I know Brandon said it may change, but still. Eshonai as KR certainly isn't confirmed and it's a medium shot. We also have to considered all the bad things she indeed do.

 

I am not also convinced Szeth will become a "real" Skybreaker. He may be a law follower to the bone, but he is crazy and a cold blooded murderer. I would rather he dies for real at the end of book 3 and have some unknown character for a Skybreaker.

 

As for the last 5 books, I keep reading different things, but one option is to have a book on Mr T. I think we can all agree that Mr T will never be a KR. Besides, if Eshonai indeed is a KR and if she indeed is a Willshaper as most theories about her think, than our last order would be the Dustbringer. Even if there were the slightest possibility that Mr T would become a KR (how anti-climatic and awful would that be), he most certainly wouldn't be a Dustbringer.

 

Therefore, I can only conclude it is not given the flashback in a book will be about the KR from the featured order.

 

Emphasis mine. Doesn't leave much room to be considered an opinion

[Bloodfalcon]

Hum, I failed to see where I said that. Really. We are just discussing here and it is clear anything anyone says is up for grab unless it is supported by either canon or Brandon    Someone mentioned each book will feature one character from each order. I mentioned we did not know that for sure, in fact there is a strong chance it won't which was the essence of my argumentation.

 

You can agree or disagree, but I what I feel here is some sort of anger and it puzzles me. It shouldn't be

Emphasis mine. Doesn't leave much room to be considered an opinion

 

Yeah that might be the easiest turn around on a quote i've ever seen. There you have it.

[maxal]

Emphasis mine. Doesn't leave much room to be considered an opinion

 

 

Yeah that might be the easiest turn around on a quote i've ever seen. There you have it.

 

I understand you do not like my phrasing and I honestly do not see why you find it so offensive. Yes, it is written in a decisive way, but this is how I organize my thoughts, this is how I write. I would even go as far as saying this is how I am, as a person. Therefore, I have found your intervention rather unpleasant and yes slightly hurtful. It was not my intention to write something disruptive. It is my understanding that any post express, by default, an opinion as we are talking about book and books are subjective. Now if I were writing that V does not equal RI than you could have scold me for writing something completely untrue as we would then be talking facts.

 

I confess I am not as good a writer as many of you nor I am as good a debater as many of you, but I like to bring some thoughts and arguments to support it at times. The idea each book's flashback had to be about the described order is one I given some thoughts on.

 

Honestly, I do not want to start a quarrel over this and we should probably let the matter drop, but I wanted to you know how I felt about it as I took it rather on a personal level.

 

Peace

[shawnhargreaves]

I am not also convinced Szeth will become a "real" Skybreaker. He may be a law follower to the bone, but he is crazy and a cold blooded murderer.

 

Boy, you are really down on Szeth, huh?

 

Murderer, sure.  But cold blooded, absolutely not!   Throughout WoK he went out of his way to obey his orders in whatever way would cause the least carnage.  When explicitly ordered to cause maximum carnage, this tore him up and drove him crazy.  He tried not to let his masters realize just how powerful a weapon he was, and was distraught midway through WoK when he fell into the hands of someone who already understood this and would use him to maximum potential.  He hears the screams of those he killed on endless replay inside his head, tormenting him and further messing with his already broken sanity.

 

I love Szeth.  He has an insanely strong moral code, which unfortunately prioritized "obey the holder of your truthstone" over "don't kill massive numbers of people".   He doesn't LIKE that he killed these people, but he did what his code demanded.  To me that makes an interesting character.

[kaellok]

 

I love Szeth.  He has an insanely strong moral code, which unfortunately prioritized "obey the holder of your truthstone" over "don't kill massive numbers of people".   He doesn't LIKE that he killed these people, but he did what his code demanded.  To me that makes an interesting character.

Oh, I hate Szeth.  But he's a very interesting character, and I kind of love how much I hate him.  Storming Sanderson makes it hard to not care a great deal (whether good or ill) about his characters, particularly in SA.

 

Also, I haven't yet seen that a large part of the storytelling reason why we see Ym is so that we will feel true fear for Lift.  When Jasnah was killed, I did not believe it (perhaps I just never got out of the denial stage of grief).  Lift, though, I liked her.  And that shadowy monster had already killed a kindly old man not that long ago, and now here he is again!  Up until the point Lift actually lived, I just kept imagining the many terrible, horrible, awful ways she was going to be killed--and hating it.  The end...when, and how, she managed to live--I literally whooped in joy (one of, as I recall, four times I did that in WoR.) 

 

So, really, from a storytelling perspective, that's why Sanderson introduced a Surgebinder just to kill him.

[shawnhargreaves]

Oh, I hate Szeth.  But he's a very interesting character, and I kind of love how much I hate him. 

 

I bet you 5 upvotes that you won't still feel this way after his flashbacks in SA3...