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Theory: The Thrill is like Ruin's Touch - WARNING Mistborn Spoilers


Elusive Fehler

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Ok, so we keep seeing in tWoK that many differenty characters experience a type of euphoria during battle.  They hardly talk about it and Dalinar seems to imply that it is something of a taboo subject.  The important scene is a few times when Dalinar looses the Thrill in the middle of battle and is disgusted by what he sees around him.

This reminds me VERY strongly of Marsh's viewpoints in Hero of Ages.  When Ruin is controlling him he loves the sight and smell of the blood and destruction.  When Ruin wanders off and Marsh can have some control it horrifies him.

So is there a Shardholder out there who is influencing the fighting men of the world to ENJOY battle?  From what we can see there is an awful lot of war going on, maybe this is the direct result of them being compelled into fighting and loving it? 

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I wonder if it's something specifically to do with using a shardsword, because I think we've only heard it from shardbearers.

Maybe most shardswords are in some way corrupted, remember Syl's hatred of them?

This makes so much sense.

I'd argue that the Thrill is like Ruin's touch and Shardblades are like Hemalugic spikes.  I'd guess this is specifically to do with Odium.  It fits too well.

Hmm, might finding out about this have anything to do with Radiants abandoning the Shardblades?

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((I moved this topic to General Theories because of both Stormlight Archive and Mistborn spoilers. Sorry, it's kind of vague what forums things should go. Basically, multi-world stuff should probably go here))

Hmm, might finding out about this have anything to do with Radiants abandoning the Shardblades?

You kind of just blew my mind there. I'm not totally sure. There needs to be meditation on the subject.

At the very least, if Shardblades were of Odium, it would fit with the idea that humanity enslaves things.

I'm uncertain whether the Shardblades are in fact of Odium. Why would the Almighty want so badly for Dalinar to "return to men the Shards they once bore" if they were tools of the enemy? I like to think that Dalinar's visions come from a reliable source. If they were Odium in disguise, I really don't see any way that Odium could ever be defeated. He would just be too powerful.

Let's suggest for a second that the spren are of Cultivation. I think this is reasonable--spren are "cultivated" where there are strong emotions, etc. around. Syl might just be reacting that the Shardblades are not of the same Shard as spren. The Shardblades, while destructive, don't have to be of Odium. If they were of Odium, and the Voidbringers and whatever monsters lived during the Desolations, why would the Almighty give the Heralds Dawnblades and the Knights Radiant Shardblades?

Unless the Dawnblades are of the Almighty, and the Shardblades are of Odium.

I'm not convinced yet.

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See, I'm not convinced the Voidbringers are necessarily of Odium.  They might just be used by him to wreck everything every so often.  Also, the Radiants and Heralds might have been grasping for any possible advantage without knowing that the Shardbadles were different from the Dawnblades, like how in the Mistborn series everybody thought the Inquisitors were Mistborn until Hemalurgy got out of the bag.

I'd be hesitant about trusting the Almighty's journal, Odium might have messed with it, possibly in the same way Ruin messed with the Feruchemist's memory metalminds.  Ati and Leras had no scruples about that kind of thing, and Rayse (assuming he's Odium) is supposed to be worse.

@rjl: Szeth has been getting some battle rages lately though.

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((I moved this topic to General Theories because of both Stormlight Archive and Mistborn spoilers. Sorry, it's kind of vague what forums things should go. Basically, multi-world stuff should probably go here))

Yeah, now that I think about it, this has more general speculation and implications to the cosmere in it then just on Roshar.

I like the idea that the Shardbearers are being influenced, but is it really as limited as that?  Kaladin's fly over the world seemed to show almost the entire world in one war or another.

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http://www.17thshard.com/forum/index.php/topic,144.0.html

that thread^^ has some reasons why Jezrien probably needed to make some sort of deal with Odium so the Heralds could walk away.

My hypothesis (I guess I won't call it a theory before I've heard responses) is that the deal he cut was to give Odium some sort of power over the shardblades (possibly with some of the thinking being "hey no need for desolations if wars over the shardblades will do even more damage".

This would explain why the knights radiant then walked away from them (evil stuff in their weapons made them think the almighty had abandoned them) and would also explain why Syl reacts negatively to the shardblade now, while before the knights radiant were pretty much THE surgebinders. Also, the apparent contradiction between the knights radiant being good and also their words making Kaladin stronger, versus the shardblades feeling evil to kaladin and syl. i.e. "Radiants were good, but modern blades are bad" becomes possible.

Also the line return to men the "shards they once bore" seems pretty odd, since just about all the shards still are being used by men, but if what he meant by it was "return the shards-untainted-by-odium that they once bore" then it makes more sense (i think)

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Also the line return to men the "shards they once bore" seems pretty odd, since just about all the shards still are being used by men, but if what he meant by it was "return the shards-untainted-by-odium that they once bore" then it makes more sense (i think)

I think he means the Dawnshards.

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Also the line return to men the "shards they once bore" seems pretty odd, since just about all the shards still are being used by men, but if what he meant by it was "return the shards-untainted-by-odium that they once bore" then it makes more sense (i think)

I think he means the Dawnshards.

oh yeah haha i forgot about those. good thing that part wasn't integral to my idea. Where are the dawnshards do you think?

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I like the idea that the Thrill has something to do with Odium, but I'm not so sure it's at all related to the Shardblades. Syl probably got that reaction to Shardblades from Kaladin. Being bonded to Kaladin is changing her and maybe some of his stronger motivations and feelings are being transfered to her, such as his desire to protect and his loathing of the one weapon that he can't protect people from, a Shardblade.

As for returning the Dawnshards, they are significantly more powerful than a Shardblade and are probably the only way of even challenging Odium, let alone defeat him. So it may have nothing to do with the Shardblades being tainted. It may just be that they're too weak to challenge a god, where the Dawnshards are.

Add into the fact that Kaladin may have been influenced by the Thrill during battle, Odium's effect on the world may be caused by something else that we don't know about. Or it may not have a cause at all except that it may be Odium's inherent power over the world, *Mistborn 2 spoiler:much like Ruin was able to alter text in Mistborn.*

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Personally, I don't think Syl's hatred of shardblades is caused by Odium's direct touch.  We know that Syl has fought before, and it seems very likely that she has fought with a shardblade (since all of the Radiants would have had to use them, in order to fight in the desolations).  If you read carefully, at one point, when describing the shardblades, she says that there's something wrong with them.  It's that wrongness that she doesn't like, not the blade itself.

From Dalinar's vision, we know that the blades used to glow.  Something was lost when the Radiant's abandoned their blades and plate.  Here's my theory:

The blades were given to men who were then put under oath to use them in defense of the world (something like the oathpact).  This oath unlocked powers (you can see them in Kaladin), while imposing restraints.  To a Honorspren, a spirit drawn to honor and binding oaths, what could be more disturbing than seeing the symbol of the greatest oaths ever made, being used by those who hadn't taken the oaths and used them in ways antithetical to the original purpose.  I imagine it must be something like having the body of a good friend dug up and hauled around like a trophy.  It doesn't mean that she doesn't like what the shards can be (well, any more than her natural dislike of violence, anyway), but it does mean that she doesn't approve of their current state.

(It's late, so I haven't cited.  Maybe I'll edit in the citations tomorrow).

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  • 3 weeks later...

No idea.

It's also possible that he's NOT talking about the Dawnshards, since he does imply that they're gone.

I just assumed that it was returning the shards to certain people who have shown that they are eligible to be knights radiants (the are bonded by spren). I thought that maybe some special ritual was needed, like saying the oaths, and then the bond between spren and knight would help cleanse any taint on the shardblade/plate and return it to its original status, with glowing glyphs.

Oh course, I never thought about the Dawnshards. Secretly, I want all the Heralds to still be alive, and while that was the case, the dawnshards couldn't be used, but that is, I think, an unrealistic fantasy. Maybe it applies to both the Dawnshards and Shardblade/plate. First you find 9 new heralds (assuming Taln remains a herald) and then you reestablish the orders of knights radiant.

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  • 1 year later...

One thing we have to remember is the way we have seen humans created on Shardworlds before. On Scadrial (MB) humans are the result of both Ruin and Preservation working together, meaning humans had both a piece of Ruin and a piece of Preservation within them. This sets our precedent. On Sel (Elantris) it would makes sense that Aona (Her shard is a synonym of love) and Skai (Dominion) worked together to a similar end. On Nalthis (WB) we do not know because only the Shard of Endowment is shown to be present. Perhaps there was a second shard here before, or Endowment has the ability to create human life on its own. Extrapolating, we must assume the humans on Roshar (WoK) were created by the shards we find there. If Odium and Honor created humanity on Roshar (Most likely with Cultivation as well, though we require more information about the past to be sure) than it would make sense that humanity would have a piece of both Odium and Honor within them. This would allow Odium to influence humanity in at least some small way, that way being the Thrill.

This would also lend evidence to beings such as the Parshendi being creatures of only Honor. We see that, in battle, the Parshendi sing together, as if they are all hearing or being influenced by one song. They also behave in ways that are more honorable and in keeping with the shard of honor than the Alethi in general. While not confirmed, it does make for interesting musing.

The importance of this, however, is not that humanity has a piece of Odium within them, but that humanity has a piece of honor in them as well. If humans (or creatures in general) are susceptible to the power of a shard that contributed to its creation than humans have the possibility to be redeemed by honor or even overcome their influence at the hands of Odium altogether. Much in the way that Mistborn snap by overcoming Ruins influence within them, perhaps humans on Roshar can fight to overcome Odium.

This theory assumes that A) humanity on a particular shardworld is created by the shards drawn to that specific world, B. that humanity contains a piece of each shard used in its creation, and C) that the influence of a shard can be overcome. We will ned more evidence to confirm this, but i see it as the strongest case for what the Thrill is, why it exists, and how it will play into the future of humanity on Roshar.

Edited by TheStephenRay
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I just assumed that it was returning the shards to certain people who have shown that they are eligible to be knights radiants (the are bonded by spren). I thought that maybe some special ritual was needed, like saying the oaths, and then the bond between spren and knight would help cleanse any taint on the shardblade/plate and return it to its original status, with glowing glyphs.

Oh course, I never thought about the Dawnshards. Secretly, I want all the Heralds to still be alive, and while that was the case, the dawnshards couldn't be used, but that is, I think, an unrealistic fantasy. Maybe it applies to both the Dawnshards and Shardblade/plate. First you find 9 new heralds (assuming Taln remains a herald) and then you reestablish the orders of knights radiant.

The heralds are all still alive, I can't remember what the source for that is, but Brandon has commented that we would be surprised how many of them appear in WoK.

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