Can Shardblades Cut Aluminum?

[Moogle]

 

“This isn’t the same at all,” Zahel said, waving down one of the ardents walking past. The man was carrying a Shardblade with metal guards over the sharp edges, one of the ones the king provided for training use. Zahel took the Shardblade from the ardent, holding it up. Kaladin nodded his chin at it. “What’s that on the Blade?”

“Nobody’s sure,” Zahel said, swiping with the Blade. “Fit it to the edges of a Blade, and it will adapt to the shape of the weapon and make it safely blunt . Off the weapons, they break surprisingly easily. Useless in a fight on their own. Perfect for training, though.”

 

 

He did so, wincing as it appeared. Shallan pointed at the slot like a keyhole in the wall— acting on a hunch. “See if you can scratch that metal with your Blade. Be very careful. We don’t want to ruin the Oathgate, in case I’m wrong.” Renarin stepped up and carefully—using his hand to pinch the weapon from above —placed the tip of the blade on the metal around the keyhole. He grunted as the Blade wouldn’t cut. He tried a little harder, and the metal resisted the Blade.

 

The Shardblade guards (and Oathgate locks) are not cut by Shardblades. Shardblade guards are apparently very weak, though. Sound familiar? Ralkalest (of The Emperor's Soul) is the unForgeable metal, but it's apparently very easy to smash. Aluminum itself is not a particularly strong metal, so tons of people have theorized that ralkalest is aluminum.

 

I am inclined to suspect that the Oathgate and Shardblade guards are made out of aluminum (which we know can be Soulcast, but is not available on Roshar otherwise due to their low metallurgy tech level).

 

Though, perhaps that's wrong: the interesting 'molding' of Shardblade guards/the Oathgate locks to the Shardblades you place in them implies that they're Cohesion fabrials. Perhaps they also have Tension fabrials or something that lets them resist metal?

 

Anyone have any evidence otherwise?

 

(Also, knowing my luck, this topic has already been brought up. I couldn't find any mentions of aluminum in this subforum, though. Let me know if this is a duplicate!)

Edited April 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Argent]

I know somebody was pioneering the idea that aluminum has special properties on all the Shardworlds (which we have a WoB for, but that person had examples). Shardblade guards and ralkalest were two of the examples brought up, though I don't remember the Oathgate lock being mentioned. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Aluminum can only be soulcast on Roshar. Shallan's necklace from her father was made of aluminum. I'm inclined to agree with you, but I think it not being recognized is a point against the theory.

[Kobold King]

I always assumed that Allomancy didn't work on aluminum because it wasn't magnetic. But I agree that there could be a greater rationale for this in the Cosmere.

Maybe Adonalsium was a conspiracy theorist, and someone stole his hat.

[GeoMancer]

Gold and pewter aren't magnetic either...

[Kurkistan]

Aluminum was also my thought for the Shardblade guards.

 

Here's some WoB, for funzies:

 

Source:

Q. In other worlds, are we seeing any magics already? Like, Allomancy might be in Roshar?

A. You’ve seen people using Allomancy in Roshar before.

Q. You said that on Roshar the only reason they have aluminum is that they can Soulcast it, right? I think you said something like that … maybe?

A. (no answer)

Q. I was wondering how that would work, if an Allomancer were to--

A. Aluminum has some weird properties on all of the magic systems, not just allomancy. It does not have the same effect, but aluminum has some bizarre effects.

 

For instance: Aluminum apparently interacts with Feruchemy:

Kurkistan: What would happen if you shot a Thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife?

-[Editor's note: Brandon initially misunderstands the question, as you shall see.]

Brandon: Ah, that's a good question. And, um.. the wound would not be able to heal _around_ the aluminum, but once the aluminum came out, and was gone from the system, they would be okay.

Kurkistan: Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug?

Brandon: Oh, you're talking about Thu- Oh, okay. Yeah, ummm... It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't really have a huge effect on them.

Kurkistan: Ah, okay. 'Cause Peter was implying that there was some weird aluminum interaction with Thugs.

Brandon: What was he thinking of... There is some weird interaction but-

Kurkistan: <rudely interrrupts> In the wedding scene [in Alloy of Law] Wax thinks that they would have aluminum bullets to deal with Thugs and I was like "oh that's a typo" and Peter was like "oh no it's not..."

Brandon: No no... That would just be- it's like I said: healing it until the bullet is gone. It's just the same as the Bloodmaker.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Kurkistan

[name_here]

It seems odd you'd be able to Soulcast aluminum if it's immune to investiture, although I suppose it might be that it only gains that immunity after the soulcasting is finished. However, the way the lock and guards reshape strongly implies they're fabrials or fabrial-like. I really doubt Ralkast is aluminum; cosmere books generally use the real-world names for materials. Also, aluminum isn't as strong as steel but it's not exactly what you'd call fragile. I've seen it used as a frame material for buildings.

[Moogle]

However, the way the lock and guards reshape strongly implies they're fabrials or fabrial-like

 

But this doesn't mean they aren't made of aluminum as a base. Other fabrials don't seem to be particularly immune to Shardblades, though I suppose we haven't seen any Soulcasters get thwacked with a Shardblade.

 

An idea: We could conceivably model the behavior of ralkalest/Shardblade guards (assuming they're made of the same thing) as aluminum having an abnormally strong 'identity' or be spiritually stable. It doesn't want to be changed - so it's unForgeable, and you can't cut it's spirit with a Shardblade because it's so strong.

[name_here]

We know fabrials can be made to resist Shardblades; halfshards demonstrate that.

[PorridgeBrick]

But this doesn't mean they aren't made of aluminum as a base. Other fabrials don't seem to be particularly immune to Shardblades, though I suppose we haven't seen any Soulcasters get thwacked with a Shardblade.

 

An idea: We could conceivably model the behavior of ralkalest/Shardblade guards (assuming they're made of the same thing) as aluminum having an abnormally strong 'identity' or be spiritually stable. It doesn't want to be changed - so it's unForgeable, and you can't cut it's spirit with a Shardblade because it's so strong.

Or it could be some remnant of an Adonalsium-based magic system that is causing the strange behavior. After all, Yolish Lightweaving still works after the Shattering, so perhaps if Aluminum played a role in the magic those properties would be retained.

[Kobold King]

Gold and pewter aren't magnetic either...

Oh, right. Remind me not to talk about chemistry again. Or physics.

 

Do we know if aluminum can be Awakened? It would be interesting to know whether the metal could be imbued with Breaths or not.

[Moogle]

We know fabrials can be made to resist Shardblades; halfshards demonstrate that.

 

This is true, but halfshards are modern inventions using captured spren. We know of no similar thing the Radiants had besides Shardplate, and it seems likely that Shardplate resists Shardblades because it's highly Invested, not because it's using any fabrial science or Surges to do it.

 

The Radiants seem to have been limited to fabrials that use the ten Surges. We've seen Regrowth (Dalinar's vision)/Transformation (Soulcasters)/possibly Illumination (through Nalan's darkness trick)/Transportation (Oathgate), and other magical Radiant fabrials like Shardblade guards and the Oathgate locks might use Cohesion to mold around the Shardblade. To resist Shardblades, it seems plausible that they Soulcasted lumps of aluminum.

 

I could be wrong, though - maybe the Oathgate locks and Shardblade guards are just super super Invested, like Shardblades/Shardplate?

Edited April 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Argent]

This is true, but halfshards are modern inventions using captured spren. We know of no similar thing the Radiants had besides Shardplate, and it seems likely that Shardplate resists Shardblades because it's highly Invested, not because it's using any fabrial science or Surges to do it.

 

On the contrary, I think Shardplate resists the cut of the Blades because of an augmenter fabrial or something that behaves similarly. I say this because Shardplate resists not only Shardblade, but all forms of damage. It's not "resistant to Shardblade," it's just "really really durable."

 

 

Do we know if aluminum can be Awakened? It would be interesting to know whether the metal could be imbued with Breaths or not.

 

That's exactly what I was wondering above.

 

EDIT: Apparently I was wondering about this so hard, I forgot to write it down...

Edited April 22, 2014 by Argent

[name_here]

The gate locks are part of the Oathgate, so being incredibly invested is reasonably plausible.

 

As for the guards, I don't think they're actually invulnerable to shardblades. No one has strapped one of the guards to a stick and used it to parry a shardblade, which seems like something people would do if it worked. I think it just clamps tightly to the shardblade and the cover never actually touches the sharp portion.

[Moogle]

On the contrary, I think Shardplate resists the cut of the Blades because of an augmenter fabrial or something that behaves similarly. I say this because Shardplate resists not only Shardblade, but all forms of damage. It's not "resistant to Shardblade," it's just "really really durable."

 

And yet, no matter how durable something is (stone, for example), Shardblades cut it like it isn't there. I'd say it's "resistant to Shardblades via Investiture" and "really really durable", and that the two things are very distinct.

 

I have said before that I think that Shardplate's strength could be due to use of the Tension Surge, so I did communicate poorly in my post, I think. I should have made my thoughts more clear.

[Argent]

As for the guards, I don't think they're actually invulnerable to shardblades. No one has strapped one of the guards to a stick and used it to parry a shardblade, which seems like something people would do if it worked. I think it just clamps tightly to the shardblade and the cover never actually touches the sharp portion.

 

I believe it was strongly implied that the guards are used not only for transportation, but also for lighteyes to use when they want to practice Shardblade dueling - they would put the guards on their Blades and duel safely without the need of Plate. 

[PorridgeBrick]

I believe it was strongly implied that the guards are used not only for transportation, but also for lighteyes to use when they want to practice Shardblade dueling - they would put the guards on their Blades and duel safely without the need of Plate.

 

But in that instance, both sides would have the guards on: you're not hitting the guard with a Blade, you're hitting the guard with another guard.

[name_here]

I believe it was strongly implied that the guards are used not only for transportation, but also for lighteyes to use when they want to practice Shardblade dueling - they would put the guards on their Blades and duel safely without the need of Plate.

 

 

But in that instance, both sides would have the guards on: you're not hitting the guard with a Blade, you're hitting the guard with another guard.

 

Yeah, both of them would have guards. Of course, banging them together would push the guards towards the blades, but if they fit tightly enough and are sufficiently inflexible when attached they'd bounce instead of deforming.

 

Also, halfshards use a strengthening fabrial like the ones in Grandbows, so even though physical strength can't stop a Shardblade investiture used to boost physical strength seems to be more effective at blocking them than investiture that isn't.

Edited April 22, 2014 by name_here

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I think viewing the reaction the guards have when being attached, we can assume that at the very least, it could draw on the Shardblade's investiture to provide the strength, which could explain why it is flimsy detached from a Blade.

[Cromptj]

But there is a good chance that the artifabrians have no idea why half-shards can block shardblades, and they think that it is the augmented strength which increases their durability and not the amount of investiture.

[name_here]

But there is a good chance that the artifabrians have no idea why half-shards can block shardblades, and they think that it is the augmented strength which increases their durability and not the amount of investiture.

 

Then why haven't we heard that shardblades can't cut infused gemstones? The halfshard can't be more invested than the gemstone powering it.

[Moogle]

Also, halfshards use a strengthening fabrial like the ones in Grandbows, so even though physical strength can't stop a Shardblade investiture used to boost physical strength seems to be more effective at blocking them than investiture that isn't.

 

Are you sure that Shardbows/halfshards have fabrials increasing their physical strength? It seems to me that it might be a fabrial increasing 'spiritual connectedness', so Shardbows won't deform as easily and Shardblades can't sever the soul for halfshards.

 

Then why haven't we heard that shardblades can't cut infused gemstones? The halfshard can't be more invested than the gemstone powering it.

 

No, there won't be more total Investiture, but it's possible the Investiture of the gemstone is incredibly concentrated along the surface of a halfshard shield, and there's just a very thin layer. I think it's the concentration that determines whether something can be cut. It would be odd if it wasn't.

 

Consider having one Breath put in a boulder and put in a pebble; it would make sense that the pebble could not be cut while the boulder could be (with some small resistance).

Edited April 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Vasteel]

Then why haven't we heard that shardblades can't cut infused gemstones? The halfshard can't be more invested than the gemstone powering it.

 

Maybe because infused gem stones only have storm light in them, whereas half-shards probably have spren trapped inside of the gemstones, similar to how the heating fabrials have flamespren trapped in them. Maybe it adds some durability?

[name_here]

Are you sure that Shardbows/halfshards have fabrials increasing their physical strength? It seems to me that it might be a fabrial increasing 'spiritual connectedness', so Shardbows won't deform as easily and Shardblades can't sever the soul for halfshards.

 

Ars Arcanum says they've got augmenter-type fabrials that enhance durability, attached to a sheet of metal to make halfshards. That might not technically be the primary effect, but it's definitely part of the effect.

Edited April 22, 2014 by name_here

[Moogle]

Ars Arcanum says they've got augmenter-type fabrials that enhance durability, attached to a sheet of metal to make halfshards. That might not technically be the primary effect, but it's definitely part of the effect.

 

Yes, but is 'durability' a physical thing or is it a Spiritual/Cognitive thing that can be enhanced/manipulated via fabrial? Just increasing the durability of a piece of paper to make it like steel shouldn't change whether or not a Shardblade can cut it, but if you did something to its Spiritual makeup or reinforced its Cognitive perception of itself, then a Shardblade might have issues with it.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Moogle