Can Shardblades Cut Aluminum?

[Shaggai]

I doubt it, mainly because the guards adapt to the Blades. How could aluminum manage that? Maybe they're aluminum with some special properties, but I would expect Blades to be able to cut ordinary aluminum.

Yes, but is 'durability' a physical thing or is it a Spiritual/Cognitive thing that can be enhanced/manipulated via fabrial? Just increasing the durability of a piece of paper to make it like steel shouldn't change whether or not a Shardblade can cut it, but if you did something to its Spiritual makeup or reinforced its Cognitive perception of itself, then a Shardblade might have issues with it.

Not necessarily. If the cutting power of Shardblades is due to them being really, really sharp and strong, as opposed to direct magic, durability would still work.

[Moogle]

If the cutting power of Shardblades is due to them being really, really sharp and strong, as opposed to direct magic, durability would still work.

 

If that's the case, I'm curious as to how Shardblades can cut a limb and not have it fall off.

[Shaggai]

If that's the case, I'm curious as to how Shardblades can cut a limb and not have it fall off.

Oh, right. Maybe discretionary magic? The whole "they cut inanimate objects, but not living things" bit is confusing. If they don't cut living things, why would they cut inanimate objects? And if they cut inanimate objects, why not living things?

[Moogle]

Oh, right. Maybe discretionary magic? The whole "they cut inanimate objects, but not living things" bit is confusing. If they don't cut living things, why would they cut inanimate objects? And if they cut inanimate objects, why not living things?

 

There's something special about living things that makes Shardblades 'tug' on them slightly. I'd guess that every living thing has a spiritweb of some kind, made of Investiture. Shardblades probably always cut the Spiritual part of an object, but for a "living" object the spiritweb protects the body part in question until the Shardblade severs it fully, at which point the underlying Spiritual part can be cut cleanly. For a rough (and terrible) analogy, consider trying to cut a stale loaf of bread. The crust is really hard (spiritweb) and your knife has a harder time cutting it than the fluffy inside.

[Argent]

The whole "they cut inanimate objects, but not living things" bit is confusing. If they don't cut living things, why would they cut inanimate objects? And if they cut inanimate objects, why not living things?

 

It has to be that. How that works, that's another thing entirely, but it probably has to do with how much influence spren have across the realms. The Blade does blur when it passes through living flesh after all, so it doesn't cut with its physical aspect.

[Shaggai]

There's something special about living things that makes Shardblades 'tug' on them slightly. I'd guess that every living thing has a spiritweb of some kind, made of Investiture. Shardblades probably always cut the Spiritual part of an object, but for a "living" object the spiritweb protects the body part in question until the Shardblade severs it fully, at which point the underlying Spiritual part can be cut cleanly. For a rough (and terrible) analogy, consider trying to cut a stale loaf of bread. The crust is really hard (spiritweb) and your knife has a harder time cutting it than the fluffy inside.

I see.

[Jaaxter]

As far as the OP's question regarding aluminum as a material for the shardblade guards, it is worth noting that what we think of as "aluminum" is actually an alloy much closer to duralumin from the Mistborn series. Pure aluminum is exceptionally soft- it gives at 7-11MPa of force. Copper, for example, doesn't give until 70MPa and bone resists until over 100MPa.

 

Additionally, aluminum is more likely to crumple than to shatter, and the latter is (if I recall correctly) what is described as happening in WoR to the shardblade guards.

[Thought]

It seems odd you'd be able to Soulcast aluminum if it's immune to investiture, although I suppose it might be that it only gains that immunity after the soulcasting is finished. However, the way the lock and guards reshape strongly implies they're fabrials or fabrial-like. I really doubt Ralkast is aluminum; cosmere books generally use the real-world names for materials. Also, aluminum isn't as strong as steel but it's not exactly what you'd call fragile. I've seen it used as a frame material for buildings.

 

Who said it is immune to investiture? We know that Allomantic pushes and pulls don't work on it, nor do riots or soothings, but Feruchemists can still store "identity" in it, and an aluminum spike can still steal allomantic enhancement powers. Curiously, it seems that aluminum is resistant to external forms of allomancy, but not internal ones: that is probably just the result of sample bias, though if we expand the "principle," aluminum might not be able to be lashed, but perhaps it could be used in half-shards.

 

 

The gate locks are part of the Oathgate, so being incredibly invested is reasonably plausible.

 

As for the guards, I don't think they're actually invulnerable to shardblades. No one has strapped one of the guards to a stick and used it to parry a shardblade, which seems like something people would do if it worked. I think it just clamps tightly to the shardblade and the cover never actually touches the sharp portion.

 

Well, it's noted that the guards are brittle when they aren't attached to a shardblade: presumably, that means a shardblade can easily cut a guard that is not attached to another shardblade (and even if not, a normal sword would certainly do that in).

 

Curiously, though, if the guards are brittle, then either there were a lot extra produced back in the day, or they are a more recent creation (brittle means they don't survive the long years of history overly well, especially if enough are breaking for people to realize that they break when off a blade but not on one).

[Wherethewindgoes]

Yes, but is 'durability' a physical thing or is it a Spiritual/Cognitive thing that can be enhanced/manipulated via fabrial? Just increasing the durability of a piece of paper to make it like steel shouldn't change whether or not a Shardblade can cut it, but if you did something to its Spiritual makeup or reinforced its Cognitive perception of itself, then a Shardblade might have issues with it.

 

I think this explanation makes the most sense--perhaps Shardblades, being spren, don't affect the physical aspect of an object but the cognitive, and living things have two cognitive identities, one of the living being and one of the actual physical parts it is made up of. The guards, and the half-shards, somehow have strengthened cognitive aspects. The fabrials the half-shards use are augmenting fabrials, but they aren't necessarily augmenting their physical durability--perhaps they augment an object's cognitive aspect, reinforce its sense of identity.

[Shaggai]

I think this explanation makes the most sense--perhaps Shardblades, being spren, don't affect the physical aspect of an object but the cognitive, and living things have two cognitive identities, one of the living being and one of the actual physical parts it is made up of. The guards, and the half-shards, somehow have strengthened cognitive aspects. The fabrials the half-shards use are augmenting fabrials, but they aren't necessarily augmenting their physical durability--perhaps they augment an object's cognitive aspect, reinforce its sense of identity.

 

Ooh! That would be interesting. So when it cuts, it alters the Cognitive identity of the spren to be "the same thing, but with a cut in it", and when it severs it, the spren splits in two?

[Moogle]

I think this explanation makes the most sense--perhaps Shardblades, being spren, don't affect the physical aspect of an object but the cognitive, and living things have two cognitive identities, one of the living being and one of the actual physical parts it is made up of. The guards, and the half-shards, somehow have strengthened cognitive aspects. The fabrials the half-shards use are augmenting fabrials, but they aren't necessarily augmenting their physical durability--perhaps they augment an object's cognitive aspect, reinforce its sense of identity.

 

While there might be some Cognitive stuff going on, I'm pretty confident we've had it confirmed that Shardblades sever the 'soul' from this WoB:

 

Q:  What if Hoid got cut by a Shardblade?

A:  The Shardblade cuts the soul and what Hoid does heals the soul.

 

So, it seems that Shardblades cut the Spiritual aspect of a person.

 

However, we know from the Feruchemical Table that identity is a Spiritual aspect of the person, so a 'reinforced identity' being what fabrials do to increase a half-shard's durability vs. Shardblades is definitely a possibility.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Moogle

[woolhead]

If aluminium couldn't be cut by shardblades, and people knew this and made shardblade safeties out of them, why wouldn't they use aluminium armor (or aluminium plated armor)? It would be incredibly effective on the battlefield. A unit of elite troops equipped with it could easily neutralize a shardbearer. 

 

Edit: Since we see no evidence of this, either the guards aren't made of aluminium, or people don't know that they are. But the brittleness point raised above indicates that they're possibly something commonly manufactured in present day Roshar, so they're probably not made of aluminium. I like the idea that they clamp to the flat of the blade without ever touching the edge, lastclap style. 

Edited April 23, 2014 by woolhead

[Moogle]

If aluminium couldn't be cut by shardblades, and people knew this and made shardblade safeties out of them, why wouldn't they use aluminium armor (or aluminium plated armor)? It would be incredibly effective on the battlefield. A unit of elite troops equipped with it could easily neutralize a shardbearer. 

 

Aluminum is rather weak, and not something you'd want your armor made out of. If a Shardbearer saw troops in aluminum, he could just call in help from his fellow soldiers and they'd be taken care of easily because they were stupid enough to wear such weak armor. And also, just because they can't be easily killed by Shardblade doesn't mean they can breach Shardplate, or handle hits from the Shardbearer if he's wielding a warhammer.

 

I admit that a thin layer of aluminum on top of normal armor would be a good way to handle things, though, in the event that the theory is true. That's still likely to be expensive and not add much value, though.

 

Aluminum is also just about as expensive as gold, if not more so; it has to be Soulcast. Do you think the ardentia would be eager to Soulcast large amounts of aluminum to help kill Shardbearers?

 

And also: people don't necessarily know Shardblades can or can't cut aluminum, given its rarity. Why would you ever try to destroy something made of aluminum, given its value? It would be like me setting priceless paintings on fire just to see whether or not they're fireproof. Perhaps not so drastic, but I wouldn't want to try to cut up my nice aluminum cutlery just for funsies.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Moogle

[woolhead]

Aluminum is rather weak, and not something you'd want your armor made out of. If a Shardbearer saw troops in aluminum, he could just call in help from his fellow soldiers and they'd be taken care of easily because they were stupid enough to wear such weak armor. And also, just because they can't be easily killed by Shardblade doesn't mean they can breach Shardplate, or handle hits from the Shardbearer if he's wielding a warhammer.

 

It's also just about as expensive as gold, if not more so; it has to be Soulcast. Do you think the ardentia would be eager to Soulcast large amounts of aluminum to help kill Shardbearers?

 

And also: people don't necessarily know Shardblades can or can't cut aluminum, given it's rarity. Why would you ever try to destroy something made of aluminum, given its value?

 

It's definitely possible that they just don't know about aluminium's properties, particularly if it's so expensive. It seems a bit unlikely to me that no one stumbled on the fact in all these years, but it's certainly possible. 

 

Assuming they did know about it's properties though, a thin layer of aluminium on the surface of armor would be a huge advantage against a Shardbearer. You rightly point out that it doesn't help with regular troops, nor with the abilities shardplate provides, but given that one of the only recognized tactics for bringing down a shardbearer is to mob him (against which the sweeping blows of a shardblade result in horrendous casualties), surely it would still be an incredible improvement over conventional armor. It would probably easily be scratched off by other troops or the shardbearer's fists etc, but it would still be a huge improvement over nothing. Like a bullet proof vest - lots of ways they're useless (getting shot in the head etc), but still save lives. 

 

I'm not sure how much access people (mainly brightlords) across Alethkar and Roshar as a whole have to Soulcasting. Could you point me in the right direction to find out more about this? 

 

Edit: 

 

 

It would be like me setting priceless paintings on fire just to see whether or not they're fireproof. Perhaps not so drastic, but I wouldn't want to try to cut up my nice aluminum cutlery just for funsies.

And yet somehow we know that paintings are flammable haha. Aluminium jewelry seems to be a thing, if someone was wearing some when they got killed (or not killed since aluminium) by a shardblade it would reveal the properties. You're right though, aluminium being rare and expensive makes it less likely that it's been exposed to shardblades. 

Edited April 23, 2014 by woolhead

[Numb]

On the contrary, I think Shardplate resists the cut of the Blades because of an augmenter fabrial or something that behaves similarly. I say this because Shardplate resists not only Shardblade, but all forms of damage. It's not "resistant to Shardblade," it's just "really really durable."

 

The issue with this is that modern fabrial all use trapped spren. I don't really see the Radiantspren accepting that idea. The Radiant fabrial seem to be based on a different concept. The listeners also didn't know about using trapped spren until Humans made fabrial which also suggests the Radiants never made fabrials this way.

[Aether]

It should also be noted that Spren were a lot less prolific back then. I am not sure most fabrials would even be possible to make in Roshar of yore, as they lacked the necessary Spren to do it.

 

I personally think that the fabrial seen in the "Starfalls" vision, and the one used by Nale towards the end of WoR is not the same as modern fabrials. Come to think of it, I'm not sure they have ever been describes as "fabrials" at all in the text.

[Argent]

I agree, I've believed, for a long time, that the fabrials from the era of the Silver Kingdoms worked differently from modern day ones. The fabrials Navani & co. create need a spren because they, more or less, duplicate and manipulate surges - but Radiants wouldn't need to do that, they had access to the surges directly.

[Jaaxter]

Assuming they did know about it's properties though, a thin layer of aluminium on the surface of armor would be a huge advantage against a Shardbearer. You rightly point out that it doesn't help with regular troops, nor with the abilities shardplate provides, but given that one of the only recognized tactics for bringing down a shardbearer is to mob him (against which the sweeping blows of a shardblade result in horrendous casualties), surely it would still be an incredible improvement over conventional armor. It would probably easily be scratched off by other troops or the shardbearer's fists etc, but it would still be a huge improvement over nothing. Like a bullet proof vest - lots of ways they're useless (getting shot in the head etc), but still save lives. 

 

Plating a suit of armor with aluminum would still be incredibly expensive. Sure, you could have an elite group of Shardslayers who make it their business to take down enemy shardbearers when they appear on the battlefield, but that is a massive investment that would easily be lost. Shallan's necklace was worth what, twenty emerald broams? Perhaps forty? Assume something ludicrous like a 300% markup because it's the jewelry industry, folks. Let's go with 10 emerald broams of materials. Since aluminum is soulcast, you can bet your boots that the original material was something dirt-cheap and easy to craft. Anyway, I can't make a firm statement about the Rosharan jewelry industry's typical profit margins, but let's just say that aluminum is 5 emerald broams per ounce to soulcast. So, that strike team wearing (basically) gold-plated armor would be far too valuable to send into combat, since they would be prime targets and have absolutely no combat advantage against normal troops. Thus, they stay in your reserves.

 

Where would you station them in your reserve battalions? You can't spread them out across your deployment because they are of no use flying solo. Even if a shardbearer can't slice through your armor/weapon, they are still wearing powered armor and swinging blades the length of a polearm. They can hit harder, move faster, and leap farther than any of you. You would need a team to take them down, and to make sure that a normal enemy soldier doesn't walk up behind your team and shank them while they are dueling the shardbearer. 

 

So your team waits in the center reserves. A wild shardbearer appears and attempts to crush your army's left flank. By the time a messenger reaches the strike team from all the way over there, you have lost two battalions of spearmen. By the time the strike team reaches the battle, he has routed another battalion and his supporting troops have filled in the wedge behind him, threatening to isolate your left wing and roll up the flanks of your army's center. Seeing this special team of soldiers in bright shiny armor charging him, the shardbearer will probably just fade back into the ranks of his army, having inflicted enormous casualties, broken your troops' morale, and given his own forces a vastly superior tactical position.

 

If he decides to engage, he will likely try to draw your team close enough to his own lines that his supporting soldiers can mob your Shardslayers. As has been discussed, aluminum makes terrible armor against steel weapons. And adding that aluminum plating to your armor is still going to make it heavier, either forcing you to encumber your Shardslayers or trim steel off the plates, making them weaker.

 

Oh, and arrows. Arrows won't do a whole lot to shardplate [citation needed], so if enemy archers saw your Shardslayer team dueling a shardbearer, their instinct would be to loose as many arrows as possible into the melee. This would probably not work out well for the Shardslayers, who are either wearing cumbersome armor or weak armor, depending on your choice in the above paragraph.

 

Even if aluminum armor somehow cannot be cut by shardblades, that's still a big, heavy sword that will inflict some serious blunt trauma. And if the shardbearer simply dismisses his blade and calls for his hammer, you're likewise screwed. 

 

Think of aluminum-armored Shardslayers like the Spy from the board game Stratego. When your General is wreaking havoc on the enemy's lines and a lone foe charges into the fray... you pull your general back and send a minion to take care of that lone soldier, who is almost invariably the spy. Except in this case, your spy cost as much to equip as all of your 8-strength pieces combined.

 

TL;DR version: troops in aluminum armor would be vulnerable in many special ways, too much so to justify the expense of the armor. Much more cost-effective to buy slaves (who cost only 2 emerald broams each), give them spears, and tell them that if they mob and take down a shardbearer, any survivors will be freed.

[Jerich]

That argument applies to common troops, but half shard Lords would definitely spring for aluminum plating on their armor if it gave them a fighting chance against full shards... That this is never mentioned as an alternative along with the fact that even a provincial daughter of a minor noble like Shallan knows what aluminum is, means that shard blades can cut aluminum.

The guards could, though, be made of some aluminum alloy unknown on Roshar... Perhaps duraluminum?

[Patrick Star]

What if Aluminum acts as a Stormlight Sponge?

 

I hypothesize that normal aluminum behaves the same (more or less) as other metals when not infused with stormlight, but has perfect stormlight retention and gains incredible qualities when infused.

 

Maybe?

[Argent]

Except we haven't seen metal being infused, only gems.

[Zerovirus]

A lot of the gems in SA contain aluminum that gives them their distinct coloring which makes them different from each other. Not all of them; diamond and quartz don't contain aluminum, usually- but a lot. Probably doesn't have much significance, though. 

[Tempus]

A lot of the gems in SA contain aluminum that gives them their distinct coloring which makes them different from each other. Not all of them; diamond and quartz don't contain aluminum, usually- but a lot. Probably doesn't have much significance, though. 

 

 

Diamond and quartz are the least valuable gems in their currency. Coincidence? Or is it because they hold noticeably less stormlight?

[Aether]

I think the gems get their respective values mostly from their usefulness in Soulcasting. Emerald spheres are the most valuable of every size because they can be used to Soulcast food.

[woolhead]

TL;DR version: troops in aluminum armor would be vulnerable in many special ways, too much so to justify the expense of the armor. Much more cost-effective to buy slaves (who cost only 2 emerald broams each), give them spears, and tell them that if they mob and take down a shardbearer, any survivors will be freed.

 

You make a lot of really good points. If aluminium had the property of not being cut by shard blades, that's definitely how I'd see things going down. However, the fact that we haven't even had a passing mention of things like this (eg: one of the thought monologues by Dalinar about how powerful shardbearers are) makes me think that either aluminium doesn't have shard blade immunity or its potential hasn't been realized and explored since at least the last Desolation. Perhaps it will get that mention in a later book though. Or maybe some of the things you've described will go down - I'd like that, your description of the deployment issues and countermeasures sounded very cool.