The Ja Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 First time topic creator, lets see how this goes... I know that there is already a topic about who will become Honor's champion, but this is for a slightly different question. Does Honor even get a champion? Preservation chose a champion, but I don't think Honor is able since he has been splintered. Do we have any WoB that there will be a champion of Honor? Also, is there any chance that the characters will bring Cultivation back into the fight? If so, who will his/her champion be? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 Also, is there any chance that the characters will bring Cultivation back into the fight? If so, who will his/her champion be? Taravangian, of course! Seriously though, Taravangian as Cultivation's champion has to be my favorite crackpot theory. His method of fixing the world was to remove the weeds (old leaders who would never have worked together) to let the new flourish. He's very prune-y. Also, the Nightwatcher seems to have links to Cultivation, and Taravangian went to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 Yes, Honor will likely get a champion. So will Odium. I still think that it's going to be Kaladin. I just think that he deserves it the most . Cultivation will likely be a third party, and won't necessarily have a champion. I do think that she'll eventually help out, but in a less direct way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 (edited) Honor's exact words are: You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. Vex Odium, convince him that he can lose, and appoint a champion. He will take that chance instead of risking defeat again, as he has suffered so often. This is the best advice I can give you. He isn't saying He gets a champion as well, but whoever sees the visions must appoint one. Edited April 16, 2014 by Aleksiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 I think the point is that if Odium appoints a champion then he's giving the right to choose a champion to his opponents, too. There are rules to duels, after all, and those rules can give you an advantage if you know how to find it - like Sadeas finding the loophole in Adolin's words and sending four Shardbearers against him instead of two. Odium doesn't have to declare that there are rules to the battle, but if he does then the heroes can use them to their advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 He isn't saying He gets a champion as well, but whoever sees the visions must appoint one. And Dalinar is seeing the visions... and we all know how well he can interpret what Tanavest is saying. My bet is that he'll dig the new Radiants into a hole by following a faulty idea of what the visions were saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 I think the point is that if Odium appoints a champion then he's giving the right to choose a champion to his opponents, too. There are rules to duels, after all, and those rules can give you an advantage if you know how to find it - like Sadeas finding the loophole in Adolin's words and sending four Shardbearers against him instead of two. Odium doesn't have to declare that there are rules to the battle, but if he does then the heroes can use them to their advantage. The way I read the quote of Honor's vision, the rules apply to Shardic conflict, which would explain why it also worked with Preservation and Ruin. Presumably if both sides choose a champion, then the rules regarding champions apply. Could the Stormfather choose a champion for Honor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 (edited) The way I read the quote of Honor's vision, the rules apply to Shardic conflict, which would explain why it also worked with Preservation and Ruin. Presumably if both sides choose a champion, then the rules regarding champions apply. Could the Stormfather choose a champion for Honor? I don't think Ruin and Preservation are a good example of choosing champions. The point of using champions between Ruin and Preservation was that they were so evenly matched in power (and opposite in Intent) that they needed to have servants who could act independently because otherwise they'd counter each other perfectly. Odium doesn't have that problem. He's powerful enough and skilled enough that he 1v2'd Dominion and Devotion. I suspect that the 'champion' thing is due to the Oathpact, probably a set of rules crafted by Honor which Odium is forced to obey. Preservation trapped Ruin in a sort of stasis field, so I'm confident Honor could put a sort of geas on Odium and force him to follow the Oathpact (which probably includes provisions for naming champions). Shardic powers seem to involve their Intents, after all, so it seems like the sort of power Honor would have. Edited April 16, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardless Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 My questions is who will be Odium's champion? Is Szeth now good and no longer Odium's champion? I am not so sure about that because Nalan doesn't seem that nice of a dude. Also will Nalan keep taking out surgebinders now that it is too late and the Everstorm and Storm form Parshendi now exist. Also Taravangian, will he turn good and try to follow Dalinar and the Radiants? After all, his attempt to "save" mankind was inspired by Gavilar's visions. Now that Dalinar has had those visions (assuming Taravangian finds out about them) will he follow Dalinar or maybe try to use Dalinar for good in the Diagram? Honestly it is hard to figure out who the bad guys are in this book. I guess he is making sympathetic bad people where you understand where they are coming from (I hate and love that at the same time). Does that mean Odium's champion will be tricked into being the "bad" champion? I really hope Szeth turns good and is not Odium's champion. That guy needs a break. After all isn't he supposed to destroy evil now. Going after people in his homeland doesn't seem that non-evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taliefer Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 i would'nt be upset by any means if Kaladin becomes Honor's champion...but it seems way too obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 My questions is who will be Odium's champion? Is Szeth now good and no longer Odium's champion? I am not so sure about that because Nalan doesn't seem that nice of a dude. Also will Nalan keep taking out surgebinders now that it is too late and the Everstorm and Storm form Parshendi now exist. Szeth was my first pick for Odium's champion, but I doubt this is the case anymore. What Nalan will do is a great question. I have no clue. Also Taravangian, will he turn good and try to follow Dalinar and the Radiants? After all, his attempt to "save" mankind was inspired by Gavilar's visions. Now that Dalinar has had those visions (assuming Taravangian finds out about them) will he follow Dalinar or maybe try to use Dalinar for good in the Diagram? I do not think Taravangian will 'turn good', but I could see him allying with Dalinar. A battle between Taravangian and the Radiants would be counterproductive at this point. I think the issue is more that the Radiants will want to kill Taravangian, not that Taravangian will want to take down the Radiants. (Though, Taravangian has contingency plans...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 My questions is who will be Odium's champion? Amaran. I really, really, want it to be Amaran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 I want Odium's champion to be Nalan or Jezrien. I don't think a champion will necessarily need to be Invested with super-amounts of that Shard's power, although having that would give that person an advantage. It'll be whoever is most appropriate for that type of duel, I hope. As to who will appoint said champion, I would go for either the Stormfather, or Dalinar, or both cooperatively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 I don't think Ruin and Preservation are a good example of choosing champions. ... I suspect that the 'champion' thing is due to the Oathpact, probably a set of rules crafted by Honor which Odium is forced to obey. Preservation trapped Ruin in a sort of stasis field, so I'm confident Honor could put a sort of geas on Odium and force him to follow the Oathpact (which probably includes provisions for naming champions). Shardic powers seem to involve their Intents, after all, so it seems like the sort of power Honor would have. The point was: there is precedent for Shard battle by proxy using champions on other worlds. As such, it is a perfect example. Consider the quote Aleksiel provided us: You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. "All of us" seems to apply to Shards. The rules he is referring to seem likely to apply to all Shards. So choosing champions doesn't seem like a special provision of the Oathpact (although there could be additional provisions regarding champions in the Oathpact, I suppose). Shardic agreements are likely to be as in Mistborn, enacted by committing investiture. Even Honor is not likely to trust Rayse while he holds "Odium." If Honor could force Odium to do things, I suspect Roshar would be a very different place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiwanawit Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 The question that needs to be answered is: Does Odium need to appoint a champion at all? Evil powers in general do not like to give their power or even lend it to someone else. If Odium can choose to fight the by Dalinar appointed champion himself I think he will. Even if it puts restrictions upon him I think he will be confident enough to accept the challenge, after all de did kill Honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 Odium will for sure need to be backed into a corner somehow before he'd be willing to appoint a champion. How you back a shard into a corner is beyond me though. Perhaps if his armies are defeated, but the Heralds refuse to go back to endless torture, and the Stormfather/Dalinar threatens to go kamikaze on him like in Mistborn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wherethewindgoes Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 I suspect that the 'champion' thing is due to the Oathpact, probably a set of rules crafted by Honor which Odium is forced to obey. There is this WoB, however: Q: How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?A: The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds). It doesn't seem Odium is directly involved in the Oathpact itself, just that the Oathpact had to do with the Heralds fighting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 The question that needs to be answered is: Does Odium need to appoint a champion at all? Evil powers in general do not like to give their power or even lend it to someone else. If Odium can choose to fight the by Dalinar appointed champion himself I think he will. Even if it puts restrictions upon him I think he will be confident enough to accept the challenge, after all de did kill Honor. That's why they have to find a way to make him choose a champion. It wouldn't be fun if it was simple, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericth Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 My questions is who will be Odium's champion? Isnt it obvious? THE STICK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 Isnt it obvious? THE STICK! We'd better hope that Shallan isn't the other champion, then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggai Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 It seems to me like the champions will be Kaladin and Moash. Moash is in such a perfect position to become Odium's champion, and none of the other characters look like they would work as Honor's champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 So, um, where does it say or even imply that Honor gets a Champion if Odium does? The way I saw it, the plan is to force Odium to choose a Champion, and then it's a matter of "focus all of the might of the world to kill that one Champion, because that's something a mortal can do, but splintering a Shard is probably so far beyond you it's not even worth explaining that as a possible option." The hopelessness involved even if Odium chooses a Champion is what leads me to think that that's the case. If Honor were able to appoint a Champion as well, then I'd imagine there'd be a lot more optimism involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 Moash is in such a perfect position to become Odium's champion I could see this, but I don't 100% agree. I don't think that he's going to like Graves using him for the diagram, so I actually see him beginning a long trek back to being honorable. I think that Amaran and Shallan's siblings are in the best positions to begin serving Odium. We already know that Odium was at work with Shallan's family, so it is entirely possible for him to gain hold of her brothers after their home got destroyed and after they learn that Kaladin killed Helaran. Amaran is furious at Kaladin, and is actively trying to unleash Odium's rage. Those types of characters tend to get corrupted pretty easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggai Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 I could see this, but I don't 100% agree. I don't think that he's going to like Graves using him for the diagram, so I actually see him beginning a long trek back to being honorable. I think that Amaran and Shallan's siblings are in the best positions to begin serving Odium. We already know that Odium was at work with Shallan's family, so it is entirely possible for him to gain hold of her brothers after their home got destroyed and after they learn that Kaladin killed Helaran. Amaran is furious at Kaladin, and is actively trying to unleash Odium's rage. Those types of characters tend to get corrupted pretty easily. Moash is generally a hateful person, feels isolated from Bridge Four, and is about to be betrayed by Graves. I feel like the betrayal will just make him hate Taravangian too, instead of becoming honorable. He doesn't think he can go back to Kaladin at this point, so it's unlikely that he'll turn to honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) I though Moash is being exploited by Graves and he is a little symbolic of the path Kaladin almost took. Maybe he was being subtly being manipulated by Odium but i think he will gradually start to grow more and more evil till he is a bad guy. Honor's Champion - Kaladin Cultivation's Champion - Lift Edited April 17, 2014 by WEZ313 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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