Adolin's actions at the end of WoR (spoilers)

[Dain]

EDIT: Posted this in the wrong board, sorry...

Edited April 10, 2014 by Dain

[Dain]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I was pretty surprised when Adolin got all eye-stabby with Sadeas at the end of the book. Adolin had been occupying the "classic knight/paladin/hero" portion of the story up until then, so a secretive murder in a dark hallway came as quite a shock to me.

So what do you all think of his actions? What will be the likely consequences for him personally? Or "spiritually" - he seemed earlier like an obvious choice for a future Knight Radiant, but I'm not sure revenge killing fits in with any of their ideals... Would love to hear more thoughts on this.

[WeiryWriter]

Moving this to the WoR Spoiler forum.

 

On the topic, I will say I was surprised.  His actions however, will not preclude him from becoming a Knight Radiant.  While some orders, such as the Windrunners and Skybreakers will not take him, others, such as the Dustbringers or Willshapers, will still take him.  My hope is that his actions are the begining of his "broken soul".

 

Edit: For future reference, just message a moderator, we can move the threads as opposed to making multiples.

Edited April 10, 2014 by WeiryWriter

[Kobold King]

How about this sentence:

Adolin stood for a moment, staring Sadeas in the eyes, and then something finally snapped.

Is the use of the word "snapped" coincidental, or is it supposed to remind us of Allomantic Snapping? Not suggesting that Adolin's an Allomancer, of course (though that would be awesome), but it could be relevant to the "broken soul" requirement.

[Dain]

I get the feeling that "Broken Soul" is an actual "official" term for something in the Cosmere?

 

P.S. Thanks WeiryWriter, wasn't sure who to ask about help. New here, etc.

[WeiryWriter]

I get the feeling that "Broken Soul" is an actual "official" term for something in the Cosmere?

 

P.S. Thanks WeiryWriter, wasn't sure who to ask about help. New here, etc.

 

Sort of.  In the past Brandon has spoken about how Snapping creates cracks in a person's soul that leaves them open to accepting Preservation's investiture in the form of Allomancy and the WoR back cover blurb again talks about cracks in a person's soul leaving them open to what we understand to be the Nahel bond.

 

There is a link at the bottom of the main forum index to The Moderating Team.  There is also a list of Mods currently online on the right side of the forum index.

[Leuthie]

There are KR spren who would definitely bond with Adolin BECAUSE of what he did. I also don't see it as a revenge killing. If Sadeas wasn't planning to continue to backstab his father, Adolin would not have killed Sadeas. Adolin killed him because he wasn't going to stop being a direct threat to everything Kholin. The *snapped* comment might actually have been because of a developing spren bond. *Something snapped*...on Roshar, the "something" is always caused by spren.

[Vasteel]

How about this sentence:

Is the use of the word "snapped" coincidental, or is it supposed to remind us of Allomantic Snapping? Not suggesting that Adolin's an Allomancer, of course (though that would be awesome), but it could be relevant to the "broken soul" requirement.

A mistborn on Roshar would make a great assassin lol. In a fight with a KR fully invested wearing shardplate though, I would just pray he couldn't fly lol

[Dain]

Ah, thanks for the info. Think I get the concept now.

 

When we finally learn what the Shardblades are I immediately thought of Adolin always chatting with his blade. I'm kinda holding out hope that he resurrects his own Shardblade into a fully functioning Spren and bonds with it properly.

 

WW - thanks for the info on how this place works. It's been a long time since I've been a member anywhere, though I have been admin and global mods on a few forums in the last couple years. Not used to being unable to delete and move things around! But I'm sure I'll adjust. Thanks again.

[kari-no-sugata]

I don't think we should be too surprised by Adolin's actions. Here's a quote:

"We should move back," Renarin said.

"We are of rank enough to be here," Adolin said.

"I don't like how you get when you're around Sadeas."

 

That's from the very first chapter Adolin is in. Rather reminds me of Syl talking about how Kaladin gets with lighteyes in general.

 

I'm more interested in how the other characters would react: I think Shallan would take it pretty calmly - I can easily see her giving him a comforting hug and defending him (she's done worse in the past and could relate to it, though she hasn't killed anyone she's hated). Hard to say about Renarin - just don't know enough about him. Navani is also hard to guess at - I suspect she would defend him publicly to some degree but berate him a bit in private. I think Dalinar would be very upset and would probably feel he's required to bring Adolin to justice. Kaladin would be rather torn, since he certainly hates Sadeas but would strongly disagree with the methods. Jasnah might be fine with it and just berate him for being sloppy.

[Terra of Roshar]

I don't think we should be too surprised by Adolin's actions. Here's a quote:

 

That's from the very first chapter Adolin is in. Rather reminds me of Syl talking about how Kaladin gets with lighteyes in general.

 

I'm more interested in how the other characters would react: I think Shallan would take it pretty calmly - I can easily see her giving him a comforting hug and defending him (she's done worse in the past and could relate to it, though she hasn't killed anyone she's hated). Hard to say about Renarin - just don't know enough about him. Navani is also hard to guess at - I suspect she would defend him publicly to some degree but berate him a bit in private. I think Dalinar would be very upset and would probably feel he's required to bring Adolin to justice. Kaladin would be rather torn, since he certainly hates Sadeas but would strongly disagree with the methods. Jasnah might be fine with it and just berate him for being sloppy.

I kind of doubt that Shallan would be okay with it, given her reaction to Jasnah killing the thugs in TWoK, which was (to me at least) a far more clear-cut case of self-defense than Adolin killing Sadeas, and therefore more moral.

[Leuthie]

I don't think we should be too surprised by Adolin's actions. Here's a quote:

That's from the very first chapter Adolin is in. Rather reminds me of Syl talking about how Kaladin gets with lighteyes in general.

I'm more interested in how the other characters would react: I think Shallan would take it pretty calmly - I can easily see her giving him a comforting hug and defending him (she's done worse in the past and could relate to it, though she hasn't killed anyone she's hated). Hard to say about Renarin - just don't know enough about him. Navani is also hard to guess at - I suspect she would defend him publicly to some degree but berate him a bit in private. I think Dalinar would be very upset and would probably feel he's required to bring Adolin to justice. Kaladin would be rather torn, since he certainly hates Sadeas but would strongly disagree with the methods. Jasnah might be fine with it and just berate him for being sloppy.

You could probably replace the names you listed with orders of KR and the whole quote would still work.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

It was definitely an unexpected scene and a bit shocking but if you really put yourself in Adolin's shoes, it's what the majority of people would do. It has nothing to do with revenge. If he wanted his family to live, it was his only option.

Be completely honest, if you were standing in a room with a man who on several occasions has tried to kill you and your father, one of those instances resulting in the deaths of thousands of men who were loyal to you; If you knew there was no one of higher authority who would hold him accountable or stop him from trying to kill again, if he said straight up to your face that he believed he had the right to rule, killing your family was his best chance of achieving that, and he had every intention to keep on trying to kill you and your family; would you really just sit back and say "oh well, nothing I can really do about it."? If so, then you must have an honorspren already because I most definitely would have done exactly what Adolin did.

[WitSpren]

It was definitely an unexpected scene and a bit shocking but if you really put yourself in Adolin's shoes, it's what the majority of people would do. It has nothing to do with revenge. If he wanted his family to live, it was his only option.

Be completely honest, if you were standing in a room with a man who on several occasions has tried to kill you and your father, one of those instances resulting in the deaths of thousands of men who were loyal to you; If you knew there was no one of higher authority who would hold him accountable or stop him from trying to kill again, if he said straight up to your face that he believed he had the right to rule, killing your family was his best chance of achieving that, and he had every intention to keep on trying to kill you and your family; would you really just sit back and say "oh well, nothing I can really do about it."? If so, then you must have an honorspren already because I most definitely would have done exactly what Adolin did.

100%          He held out much longer than I would have.     And it would not have taken any "Snapping" to send me in that direction.     

 

If you see a lion coming at you, after you see it take down thousands of others.     It is time to get off your axxx and put the thing down.     The only difference is, that I would not have felt ANY (not the tinest bit) of the guilt that I think that Adolin will in the next book.   

[Terra of Roshar]

It was definitely an unexpected scene and a bit shocking but if you really put yourself in Adolin's shoes, it's what the majority of people would do. It has nothing to do with revenge. If he wanted his family to live, it was his only option.

Be completely honest, if you were standing in a room with a man who on several occasions has tried to kill you and your father, one of those instances resulting in the deaths of thousands of men who were loyal to you; If you knew there was no one of higher authority who would hold him accountable or stop him from trying to kill again, if he said straight up to your face that he believed he had the right to rule, killing your family was his best chance of achieving that, and he had every intention to keep on trying to kill you and your family; would you really just sit back and say "oh well, nothing I can really do about it."? If so, then you must have an honorspren already because I most definitely would have done exactly what Adolin did.

 

The thing is, I don't think his plan for undermining the Kholins would really have worked. I feel like no one would have listened to him given such visible evidence of the Radiants being exactly what they say they are, and the sheer ridiculousness of Dalinar starting a Desolation to gain political power. Anyone who's ever had a conversation with Dalinar is going to know that that's a load of crem. He isn't really a threat anymore, at least not based on what he said in that conversation, so killing him isn't justified (and no, I don't think it's justice to execute him for the betrayal at the Tower).

[WitSpren]

The thing is, I don't think his plan for undermining the Kholins would really have worked. I feel like no one would have listened to him given such visible evidence of the Radiants being exactly what they say they are, and the sheer ridiculousness of Dalinar starting a Desolation to gain political power. Anyone who's ever had a conversation with Dalinar is going to know that that's a load of crem. He isn't really a threat anymore, at least not based on what he said in that conversation, so killing him isn't justified (and no, I don't think it's justice to execute him for the betrayal at the Tower).

Sure!     Just like Amaram is Squeeky Clean and   Mr T is a Saint.           

 

Sadeas has proven that he can and will do everything in his power to bring down the Kholins.     Sure, at this point he waould probably fail, but why give him the chance to prove you wrong..

[Terra of Roshar]

Sure!     Just like Amaram is Squeeky Clean and   Mr T is a Saint.           

 

Sadeas has proven that he can and will do everything in his power to bring down the Kholins.     Sure, at this point he waould probably fail, but why give him the chance to prove you wrong..

 

Because you shouldn't just execute people based on what they might do. At that point, he wasn't really a threat anymore, more an annoyance. Either he would do something genuinely harmful in the future, like you said, in which case we can deal with him then, or he'll go through with the plan he tells Adolin, which would be easily foiled and make him look like a fool. Let the man dig his own grave. And this is not to mention the fact that, should anyone find out that it was Adolin who killed Sadeas, there will be serious repercussions. We are told on several occasions that betrayal, like what Sadeas did to Dalinar at the Tower, is much more acceptable to the Alethi than outright murder. And someone killing a highprince? that's going to be seriously investigated, and said investigation could well do more damage to the Kholins than any plan of Sadeas's.

[Moogle]

The thing is, I don't think his plan for undermining the Kholins would really have worked.

 

Sadeas commanded tons of assassins through his wife and was going to kill more innocents before long. I think leaving him alive would have been a mistake, personally.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Because you shouldn't just execute people based on what they might do. At that point, he wasn't really a threat anymore, more an annoyance. Either he would do something genuinely harmful in the future, like you said, in which case we can deal with him then, or he'll go through with the plan he tells Adolin, which would be easily foiled and make him look like a fool. Let the man dig his own grave. And this is not to mention the fact that, should anyone find out that it was Adolin who killed Sadeas, there will be serious repercussions. We are told on several occasions that betrayal, like what Sadeas did to Dalinar at the Tower, is much more acceptable to the Alethi than outright murder. And someone killing a highprince? that's going to be seriously investigated, and said investigation could well do more damage to the Kholins than any plan of Sadeas's.

We have two books of stuff he did do that were well worthy of execution. To leave someone with as much power and drive as Sadeas does free to continue his scheming just because you think he's been hamstrung is tantamount to suicide.

[Aether]

Sadeas commanded tons of assassins through his wife and was going to kill more innocents before long. I think leaving him alive would have been a mistake, personally.

I tend to agree with this notion, but I don't think killing Torol solves the problem of his wife's assassins at all. If anything, she might be more likely to use them more openly or wantonly now, either to find out who killed him, to exact revenge or to enact their shared goals.

[Arachiel]

Sadeas might end up doing some damage to the Kholin reputation after all since Adolin just murdered him and is now going to try to hide it. What's going to happen when people find out?

On the other hand, I wonder what this action is going to do to Adolin emotionally. Despite the fact that he probably feels justified in killing Sadeas, he still knows it was dishonorable and wrong to do it the way he did. It'll probably make him somewhat guilty and we'll probably see him having some emotional issues in the next books what with that coupled with pretty much everyone he knows being a Radiant while he's not (I think there was a statement about that near the end of WoR, how now that Shallan's a Radiant, she basically outranks him and he seemed pretty shocked at that realization or something to that extent).

Also, of course people are going to find out it was Adolin who killed Sadeas, but so far in the story, Adolin's been the golden boy of the Kholins. Now, Renarin's a Radiant, and Adolin's going to be seen as a murderer.

 

Meanwhile, Kaladin doesn't seem to hate Shallan as much as he once did (and now they're both Radiants). I wonder if that'll be affecting Adolin in any way...

[Moogle]

I tend to agree with this notion, but I don't think killing Torol solves the problem of his wife's assassins at all. If anything, she might be more likely to use them more openly or wantonly now, either to find out who killed him, to exact revenge or to enact their shared goals.

 

While true, this is a reason to kill Sadeas' wife as well, not to leave Sadeas alive.

[Aether]

While true, this is a reason to kill Sadeas' wife as well, not to leave Sadeas alive.

Which was the idea I was going for. I wasn't suggesting that Sadeas should not have been killed because of his wives assassins, just that his death alone doesn't really change anything when it comes to that specifically.

[Frostlander]

I agree with the idea that the word "snapped" is significant, since Adolin really did need something more if he's going to become a KR. And I think he is, partly because we're going to need more than one knight representing each order by the end of the series. (Unless we come back from the break after book five and there are a whole bunch of anonymous redshirt KR's running around.)

 

Anyway, there was an interesting quote from a signing that got me thinking about a potential oath for Adolin's hypothetical order:

 

Q:  What Jasnah did, in the first book, with Shallan in the alleyway. And what happened at the end of this book, between Adolin and the other character. Would you put them on the same level? Or would you say that what Adolin did was maybe a little bit darker?

A:  I would say that what Adolin did was less dark, personally. I would say that what Adolin did was something that needed to be done, that no one else was capable of doing.
Q:  Will it have any ramifications for him down the line? With how it was handled?
A:  Oh, there are definitely ramifications. How it's handled, there's lots of ramifications. And there are certain characters who would think that what he did is totally, totally, totally wrong.

Bold text is obviously mine.

 

It has the feel of a proto-oath, the idea behind the eventual oath. Something like a grim: "I will do what needs to be done"?

[Ketek]

It has the feel of a proto-oath, the idea behind the eventual oath. Something like a grim: "I will do what needs to be done"?

 

It does, but then again it could be over-speculation.

 

Anyway, there is a point to both sides of the argument. Killing Sadeas was understandable - shocking, but understandable. In a way, it was solving a problem before it actually popped up. His princedom will now need to deal with the problem of a successor, and that will hinder anyone trying to avenge him.

 

But then again, what we've seen from the Stormlight Archive seems to emphasize this beyond everything else - journey before destination. Kaladin could have solved a major problem by standing by and letting Elhokar die, but it wouldn't be ethically right. Also, remember that the Blackthorn (I'm referring to Dalinar in the past, specifically) is considered a tyrant and warlord. And Adolin is going down that exact same path when even his father realizes that the Blackthorn's way is wrong!

 

What will this mean for Adolin? I don't know. But I'm not inclined to believe that he will end up a Radiant, not when Dalinar and Renarin already are, with Jasnah (and possibly Elhokar) as well. It'll just look somewhat dumb, imho. I think it's more likely that he'll fall to Odium's manipulations.

 

Which is a shame since he genuinely was a good man, if one that wasn't too insightful. He cares about people even below his status, and perhaps in another time and place he could have been one of those that brought Roshar from a system of tyranny to diplomacy. If anything, I think I hate Sadeas even more now for forcing Adolin to go down this path.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Ketek