[OB] Ba-Ado-Mishram and the Recreance

[ScavellTane]

If you consider the passages with some spren as having joined to other side ie. bonded Singers. 

 

Quote

"A coalition has been formed among scholar Radiants. Our goal is to deny the enemy their supply of Voidlight; this will prevent their continuing transformations, and give us an edge in combat."

"Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi."

"Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her."

"We are uncertain the effects this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power. Melishi is confident, but Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects."

BAM provides voidlight, now, so does Dalinar and the Stormfather. Could BAM have bonded an individual instead of the entire race? As a Bondsmith, BAM and her bondmate facilitates bonds and light similar to what Dalinar and the Stormfather is doing?

Quote

"So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address."

Considering the tone of the epigraph, was the severing of the Singers done purposefully? The Singers were starting to gain the Nahel-bond so Melishi took that away? The severing was done in addition to the imprisonment not as a byproduct?

Quote

"Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest."

As we have seen with Venli-Timbre, a Singer surgebinder retain their 'power-form' so it would not be immediately evident that they gained the Nahel-bond as the Radiants would expect them to manifest very different physically if they naturally bonded Radiant-spren.

Quote

"That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named."

The Radiants did something and then abandon their Oaths?

Quote

"This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine."

With BAM as a Bondsmith and providing (I presume) Nahel-Bonds to various Singers, the Radiants would view that as a betrayal by the spren. The spren withdraw after the Severing and then two thousand Radiants attack them?

Quote

But I am the one who escaped, the spren of redemption.

Was Ulim one of the spren who went over to BAM at that time? Were he and his cohorts, survivors of the Recreance? An oddity with these spren, they're not bonded to anybody, yet they are fully intelligent in the Physical Realm unlike Syl and Pattern. Proof that they had bonded before? Or was this a side effect of the Severing? Or some combination of the two?

Revision:

It may not have been the Nahel-bond similar to Venli-Timbre. But more like what the Fused have, but without being fused. This still necessitates sentient spren to bond with a Singer. It could be that the spren that bonded the Singers and provided 'power-form' were not of Odium, but basically joined the Singers side of the conflict. With the Singers gaining a void-Bondsmith of their own, the spren sees it as an invitation? This would explain why the Radiants felt betrayed.

All this happened during a time of change for the spren, the spren of Urithiru withdrew, the Stormfather was in his in-between state, BAM upgraded?, the spren in general began to split between Radiant sentient-spren and non-Radiant sentient spren?, what other great spren changes occurred here that has become the norm for current Roshar?

Edited August 4, 2018 by ScavellTane

[Diomedes]

1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

BAM provides voidlight, now, so does Dalinar and the Stormfather.

Dalinar and Stormfather provide stormlight not voidlight. Big difference. Stormlight is Honor`s inverstiture, voidlight Odium`s. 

1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

The Singers were starting to gain the Nahel-bond...

No, the Nahel bond is made of Honor`s investiture, BAM is not of Honor!

Your basic theory that there could be some analogy of the Bondsmiths on Odium`s side is very much possible. And I like the idea. The void-surges are a twisted way of the normal surges, why should there not be a twisted version of a Bondsmith?

But your evidence does not support it.  

1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

With BAM as a Bondsmith and providing (I presume) Nahel-Bonds to various Singers, the Radiants would view that as a betrayal by the spren. They then withdrew from battle and two thousand attack the formerly (?) singer-bonded-spren.

This is not possible. The Radiants loved their spren as individuals. They would not kill them because they were jealous that other spren bonded with some Singers. 

 

[ScavellTane]

57 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

Dalinar and Stormfather provide stormlight not voidlight. Big difference. Stormlight is Honor`s inverstiture, voidlight Odium`s. 

Are we certain voidlight is of Odium (He's gold, it's violet-ish)? It's both still investiture-fuel though.

Quote

"Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her."

There's no mention of Odium 'providing' voidlight. Voidlight may have been the natural investiture of Roshar pre-Shattering. The Fused were given 'persistence' by Odium not necessarily voidlight. I believe they are 'fused' with a spren which grants them a surge and access to voidlight. This is predicated upon BAM being one of the Dawnshards, therefore capable of granting investiture that is pre-Shattering and the spren that bonded the Singers were also pre-Shattering. But thats going into the deep end.

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No, the Nahel bond is made of Honor`s investiture, BAM is not of Honor!

Your basic theory that there could be some analogy of the Bondsmiths on Odium`s side is very much possible. And I like the idea. The void-surges are a twisted way of the normal surges, why should there not be a twisted version of a Bondsmith?

But your evidence does not support it.  

There was never any evidence that the Singers were granted surgebinding back then. It's just extrapolation from BAM being a Bondsmith and the severity of the Severing. 

57 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

This is not possible. The Radiants loved their spren as individuals. They would not kill them because they were jealous that other spren bonded with some Singers. 

If that was the case they would not have 'killed' their bondmate regardless, yet they did. They killed the spren who bonded the Singers and then went to Feverstone Keep. At least the Windrunners and Stonewards did.

Edited August 3, 2018 by ScavellTane

[RShara]

12 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

Are we certain voidlight is of Odium (He's gold, it's violet-ish)? It's both still investiture-fuel though.

He's not really gold. That's just how he tries to present himself, imo.

[ScavellTane]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

He's not really gold. That's just how he tries to present himself, imo.

Could be, but I wouldn't think that he needed to do so. Unless its the Odium vs. Passion thing.

[+Child of Hodor]

46 minutes ago, RShara said:

He's not really gold. That's just how he tries to present himself, imo.

The gold crown and scepter are him putting on airs. The old man appearance might not be how Rayse looked pre-Odium either. Considering he looked Parsh to the Parsh at Thaylen, we really don’t know what Rayse looked like. 

Not sure all manifestations of a Shards power have to have the same color. Honorspren are blue, but the perpendicularity is blinding golden light. The high storm appears white-ish in the cognitive realm. We’ve seen a Shard pool on another planet that was blue and it wasn’t Honor’s.

In Dalinars vision of Odium the dark violet light was at the core of his being. I assume it is his.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[ScavellTane]

30 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

The gold crown and scepter are him putting on airs. The old man appearance might not be how Rayse looked pre-Odium either. Considering he looked Parsh to the Parsh at Thaylen, we really don’t know what Rayse looked like. 

Not sure all manifestations of a Shards power have to have the same color. Honorspren are blue, but the perpendicularity is blinding golden light. The high storm appears white-ish in the cognitive realm. We’ve seen a Shard pool on another planet that was blue and it wasn’t Honor’s.

In Dalinars vision of Odium the dark violet light was at the core of his being. I assume it is his.

That's the only roadblock to my theory that I could see. If voidlight is from Odium then nothing works.

The voidspren that Venli bonded didn't really grant her any surge. So I presume that that's not a sentient spren. I think 'power-form' comes from sentient spren, 'crafted of gods'.

Edited August 3, 2018 by ScavellTane

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

No, the Nahel bond is made of Honor`s investiture, BAM is not of Honor!

This I very much disagree with. It is possible to bond the Unmade. 

Quote

Questioner

Can the Unmade be bonded?

Brandon Sanderson

Wow, plausible... Yes, or possible, I should say.

source

The bond is just a symbiotic relationship. A specific type of Connection, and Connection is not itself Investiture at all. 

Quote

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]

As the two Realms, the Cognitive and the Spiritual, are, well, fictional... Are they all comprised of Investiture, completely?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. No, completely? Well, here's the thing. Investiture, matter, and energy are all the same thing in the cosmere. So, just like energy and matter are the same thing here. So, yes, everything's made of Investiture, in the same way that everything's made of energy in our world. Does that make sense?

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]

So, what about what spren are made of in the Cognitive Realm? Is that just Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, yeah, I'll dig more into that. I'm gonna go with Investiture for now, but I could change that as I move along. What I'm kind of debating is, is there a separate Cognitive state, and I don't think so. So I'm gonna go with Investiture for now.

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]

How about Connection?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Connection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something. The question is like, "What is gravity comprised of?" And then you start asking weird questions.

source

I don't agree with parts of this theory, basically because I think if the Singers were able to make bonds like this free of unmade/Odium control, there'd have been no need for the Last Legion to feed to dullform in the first place.

Considering I do believe that Sja-anat is genuine in her desire to defect, and I've pushed the idea of Unmade as Bondsmith spren myself, I don't have any issues with the proposed mechanics here, even in "stealing" Voidlight from Odium. I just think it would have negated the need for the listeners to flee at all. 

[ScavellTane]

I'm gonna postulate this:

Quote

"Nightform predicting what will be, / The form of shadows, mind to foresee. / As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered. / A new storm will come, someday to break. / A new storm a new world to make. / A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens."

The Last Legion had access to a Nightform and it predicted the Severing. If they didn't know about the impending Severing, taking the Dullform was kind of pointless. It would have slowed their escape would it not? Had the war not happened as it did, wouldn't the other Singers sought them out once it was known that they have fled.

Edited August 3, 2018 by ScavellTane

[Angsos]

Do we actually %100 know Voidlight is of Odium, considering the original voidbringers were humans because pre-Oathbringer we assumed voidbringers were always the parsh.

[MountainKing]

2 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

That's the only roadblock to my theory that I could see. If voidlight is from Odium then nothing works.

The voidspren that Venli bonded didn't really grant her any surge. So I presume that that's not a sentient spren. I think 'power-form' comes from sentient spren, 'crafted of gods'.

Venli gained a regal form which accesses surges in the same way that fabrials made from lesser spren do, in a limited way.

Edited August 3, 2018 by MountainKing
Fixing Grammar

[ScavellTane]

I guess I could say that the Fused and the Regals gain light through their spren. While the Radiants get light externally?

The question is, were the spren that Venli, the Fused and the Singers of the False Desolation bonded, made of Odiums investiture? Odium wouldn't splinter himself for that would he? There is the argument for the Unmade, but I don't think he had a choice in that matter.

I mean when the Fused were conceived, I would assume that Odium just took a Singer shadow and glued it to a spren. He wouldn't want to spend his investiture on it.

Then is Ulim and the rest with Odium or of Odium?

Edited August 3, 2018 by ScavellTane

[Diomedes]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

This I very much disagree with. It is possible to bond the Unmade.

Now we are down to language and how you call things. 

I agree with you that an Unmade could be bonded, but would that bond be described as Nahel-bond? 

Argent (paraphrased)

Is the bond between a seon and its master similar to the Nahel bond between a Surgebinder and his spren?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/167-steelheart-chicago-signing/#e3035

So it is similar, but not the same. A bond between Seon and human is not called a Nahel bond, right? A bond with an Unmade, invested with Odium would also be called differently.

 

We do agree, that the Unmade are invested with Odium`s investiture, do we? 

 

Edit: @ScavellTane"If that was the case they would not have 'killed' their bondmate regardless, yet they did. They killed the spren who bonded the Singers and then went to Feverstone Keep. At least the Windrunners and Stonewards did."

Yes they killed their spren, but not without a good reason. Simple jealousy is not a reason why you would kill thousands of beloved sentient beeings. There is a good theory on, that the spren were in on the Recreance stuff.

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Diomedes

[MountainKing]

I'm pretty sure Brandon's says its different because nahel bonds on roshar requires oaths.

He has confirmed you can form nahel bonds with lesser spren, and has RAFO if nahel bonds can be formed with cognitive shadows

[Calderis]

29 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

We do agree, that the Unmade are invested with Odium`s investiture, do we? 

Yes. And I don't believe that has any bearing on the bond. See Glys. 

[recneps]

2 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

The question is, were the spren that Venli, the Fused and the Singers of the False Desolation bonded, made of Odiums investiture? Odium wouldn't splinter himself for that would he? There is the argument for the Unmade, but I don't think he had a choice in that matter.

 

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1) The Nightwatcher and Stormfather are parallel entities such that Nighwatcher:Cultivation :: Stormfather:Honor.

2) There is sort of a parallel for Odium, but the parallel is the various Unmade instead of a single entity.

3) They are parallel in that they are all Splinters.

4) The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily Splintered part of it's power.

5) The Stormfather is different from the others because it's a Sliver.

source

 

 

[ScavellTane]

6 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Yes they killed their spren, but not without a good reason. Simple jealousy is not a reason why you would kill thousands of beloved sentient beeings. There is a good theory on, that the spren were in on the Recreance stuff.

You made it out as if that was the only reason for it? The persecution of the 'traitor' spren does not negate the reason for the Oathbreaking.

Quote

"That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named."

There were already plans to forswear their oaths when they attacked the spren.

 

Quote

4) The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily Splintered part of it's power.

It was part of a deal/agreement? The Unmade, I'd wager, is what's shackling Odium to Roshar. They are a fairly significant mass of his investiture. I would think that he wouldn't have Splintered them if it wasn't because of a bet of sorts. He never intended to remain in Roshar, so logically he would not have willingly invest so highly in Roshar.

Edited August 4, 2018 by ScavellTane

[recneps]

If he would not willingly do so, why was it done voluntarily?

[ScavellTane]

15 minutes ago, recneps said:

If he would not willingly do so, why was it done voluntarily?

I'm just explaining myself poorly. Basically, he made a deal, he lost and the Unmade was the price.

[Diomedes]

13 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

ou made it out as if that was the only reason for it? The persecution of the 'traitor' spren does not negate the reason for the Oathbreaking

Well then, enlighten me, what is your theory why they killed their beloved friends?

What is the reason for Oathbreaking, if not jealousy/feeling of betrayal according to your theory? Keep in mind that there is no such thing as "the" spren. There are thousands of individual spren, who often hate each other. Why would the Radiants kill their friends, just because, some other spren bonded with Singers?

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

On 8/3/2018 at 8:45 AM, ScavellTane said:

With BAM as a Bondsmith and providing (I presume) Nahel-Bonds to various Singers, the Radiants would view that as a betrayal by the spren. The spren withdraw after the Severing and then two thousand Radiants attack them?

Ok here is my take on it.  BAM provide some sort of mass link to all Singers. It is very similar to a navel bond as the spritweb of the Singers was intertwined with BAM. So when she was imprisoned it ripped the connection away from the Singers and Trapped it with BAM. This locked them into slave form. The Listeners were not effected because the listeners were not connected to BAM. Had this been a normal desolation there would be no need for the Singers to link with BAM as Odium would have been present and supplying stormlight. Therefore, Dalinar can’t repeat this effect again , as the Singers are no longer linked to BAM like they were during the falsendesolation. This is very interesting, to me at least. I always wondered why imprisoning BAM trapped the Singers into slave form in the first place and why hadn’t the Radiants done this before.

[Ciridae]

On 03/08/2018 at 7:25 PM, ScavellTane said:

I'm gonna postulate this:

The Last Legion had access to a Nightform and it predicted the Severing. If they didn't know about the impending Severing, taking the Dullform was kind of pointless. It would have slowed their escape would it not? Had the war not happened as it did, wouldn't the other Singers sought them out once it was known that they have fled.

I know I' m late to the discussion, but I just wanted to say that I love this theory. I don't know if the entire Last Legion was comprised of Nightform singers (I doubt it) but they for sure had some among them. One of the songs says that the Nightform predicted a new storm to come. If the Listeners knew of this a Nightform must have told them. This really excites me. 

On Unmade and the potential for being bondsmith spren, I'm not sure. I think it comes down to the spren in question. We know that a Nahel-like bond with an Unmade is possible, we've even seen one almost succeed. Re-Shephir tried to rip Pattern from Shallan and insert herself in his place. Would the result have been similar to a Bondsmith? I don't think so. But since we suspect Ba-Ado-Mishram to be the most powerful of the Unmade it's certainly possible. 

To clarify, I don't think there was a singer Bondsmith at the time of the capture of BAM, but that she just had strong connection to most singers. Also, isn't it interesting that the name BAM contains Ado, which sounds like Adoda, which we know to mean light? As in the Voidlight she supplied? And Mishram sounds a lot like Mishim and Ishi. Did we ever find out what that the root of those names meant? 

[Calderis]

15 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

Also, isn't it interesting that the name BAM contains Ado, which sounds like Adoda, which we know to mean light? As in the Voidlight she supplied? And Mishram sounds a lot like Mishim and Ishi. Did we ever find out what that the root of those names meant? 

Huh... I hadn't noticed the adoda connection actually... That's very very interesting... 

[Ciridae]

Yeah, I don't believe for a second that it's coincidence. Brandon is too detail oriented for that, and BAM too important. 

I've read most of the glyph translation thread, but I'm far from well-versed in glyphs or Alethi. But I figure the root of the words Mishim, Mishram, Melishi and Ishar is the same, 'ishi'. IIRC its the number ten, and another name for the Herald. But has anybody figured out what it actually means? 

[Comatose]

I had the same thought about “Adoda” potentially noting BAM’s connection to voidlight.  I was wondering if “Ba” is some sort of negative, and “Mishram” means giver or holder or something.  

The one hiccup is not knowing whether the name has commonalities to the modern Alethi language or not.