[Theory] Worldhopping, how it's done.

[Ren]

Hello, I posted an unrefined theory in a very long thread, so I decided to work this out this evening and here it is.

Since I read the whole WoB thread a few days ago, something kept bothering me - why Brandon chuckles so much when he says that it was far from obvious how Worldhopping works and that we have BIG HINTS in Elantris.

So, well. The foundation of my theory is that Hoid is using AonDor to travel between worlds. Let me explain some things first, as I understand them from my re-readings of Elantris.

Lets just go back a bit, what did Raoden in the end with drawing Aon Rao on the ground? He restored the Investiture somehow. That's how I understand that. Before that he added the chasm line, but the Aons were very weak, but after drawing the new Aon Rao, every Elantrian started glowing and etc. For their Aons to be powerful they needed Investiture. And the closer they are to Elantris, the more powerful their Aons are. This means that Elantris somehow generates/connects I don't know exactly and acts like Sel's "Highstorm" for Elantrians. Elantris was already there, before even the humans arrived, so that means that it is the source of Investiture somehow.

I got a bit carried away, so my point is. WoB is that you can power one magic system with Investiture from another, as long as you know how. Then why that means that you can use AonDon, as long as you can and as long as you have Investiture, from anywhere in Cosmere.

But the trick is! I believe that using AonDor from Roshar, one doesn't need to draw Sel's lines of map. One have to draw Roshar's! So, imagine drawing Aon Ehe on Roshar, we have to draw Roshar's map lines and the add the additional stuff and viola, we have the effect.

 

Example 1: Hoid is in Elantris. He draws Roshar's map lines, additional calculations to where exactly to land. And Hop.
Example 2: Hoid is in Roshar. He draws Scadrial's map lines, additioanl calculations and HOP.

 

Hoid is known to be able to use strange magic, magic we haven't yet seen in any of the books, why can't he use AonDor too? We don't know what he can and what he can't too.

 

My second best argument is - Galladon. He's one of the Three Worldhoppers looking for him?! Why send Galladon, ask yourselves? Because he can use AonDor! The other two can grab him and he'd draw the Aon and hop.


My third best arguments is - Brandon said at one of his Q&A that the guy who asked him something about the mountains was on the right track, but not exactly. The point is that, mountains are a very important part of AonDor.


WoB said that Hoid traveled before through Shadesmar and I think that is quite reasonable. Lord Ruler changed the land on Scadrial, Sazed did that again later, Elantris had the chasm, Roshar has the Shattered Plains (in my opinion that is quite similar to the Chasm in Elantris). Hoid is not God, he had to travel through Shadesmar to get into the lands at first.

All we need  to do is to find out how AonDor works on the given planet and then we can jump as long as we have Investiture.


Thanks for reading.
 

[Chlehrma]

My thought was, "how many steps is if from Elantris to the shattered plains on Roshar?" After reading what Rock said, my thought now is that all shard pools are connected to the cognitive realm.

[Adolin_Dustbringer]

I doubt AonDor, Forgery, ChayShan, or Dakhor would work at all on any place besides Sel. Why? Because they use the power of Devotion and Dominion. Without them, the use of it seems impossible to me. 

[Tempus]

A bit of clarification for you on how Elantris was restored. The entire city of Elantris is a giant Aon - a really gigantic Aon. Specifically, Elantris is Aon Rao, and it's use is to amplify the power of the Dor in Arelon. And it's big. How big? Well, it's the size of five cities, with the central city large enough to take a minimum of several hours to walk across. That means just the central square of the Aon should be at least 35km long on one side.

 

It is a huge, gigantic, power focusing Aon, built upon what is apparently the concentration point for the Dor in that given area. Long story short, before Raoden fixed the Aon by dragging a big stick near the end of the book, the power of his Aons (weak and pitiful) is the normal expected power of an Aon without Elantris to amplify it. We don't know if Aons can be used exactly with another landscape as their centre (though other systems can and do manage this for other locations), but we know that to access Aonic power you would need to have the bloodline of that region (sDNA), be close to that region (for power from the Dor), and have the right Aon symbols (as the focus).

 

So no, Hoid isn't likely using Aons specifically to worldhop everywhere.

[thejopen27]

Well, Elantrians can basically Elsecall. The power to instantly transport is highly similar to Jasnah's transporting abilities.  Elsecallers are the masters of Shadesmar because they can both Elsecall and soulcast and both powers involve accessing Shadesmar and traveling into the cognitive realm.  This implies that an Elantrian can also use their transportation to travel to the cognitive realm. 

 

Brandon has said multiple times that people from Sel would have a hard time world hopping.  I can think of two reasons for this: Elantrians magic is so heavily based on the land and by traveling away from their home planet they couldn't escape the cognitive realm in the new location because they wouldn't know the shape of the land in the new location and couldn't make the proper glyph or maybe it has something to do with both shards on Sel being dead and Shattered but I don't know why that would effect it.

 

Anyone who understands me and wants to back me up would be appreciated.

[EddyRed]

An interesting theory, though an issue I have with the use of Selian magic systems on other planets is that each system is 'locked' to a specific region of Sel, a limitation that could reasonably be assumed to be inherent in the system.

So in trying to access a Selian system in Roshar one would have to map out not just the regions that are viable for each system, but also figure out what systems work where, and in the case of Aons, what landmarks are significant.

[Tempus]

Again, the biggest problem with the Selian system is that a bloodline is required. It takes approximately several decades, according to the Elantris annotations, for a group of people to have enough of a tie to a location to be able to utilize it. It's not clear at all whether any location is useable or not either.

 

Also, I believe the WoB isn't that people from Sel have a hard time worldhopping, but that the cognitive realm around Sel is particularly inhospitable and that you wouldn't want to visit it.

[Moogle]

I doubt AonDor, Forgery, ChayShan, or Dakhor would work at all on any place besides Sel. Why? Because they use the power of Devotion and Dominion. Without them, the use of it seems impossible to me. 

 

Allomancy uses the power of Preservation, and Hoid had no problem using it on Roshar. I think the power of Shards can be accessed from anywhere in the universe, or at least within the galaxy the Cosmere is set in.

[Tazren]

 

My third best arguments is - Brandon said at one of his Q&A that the guy who asked him something about the mountains was on the right track, but not exactly. The point is that, mountains are a very important part of AonDor.

 

 

What are you referring to, here?

[Odium's_Shard]

Again, the biggest problem with the Selian system is that a bloodline is required. It takes approximately several decades, according to the Elantris annotations, for a group of people to have enough of a tie to a location to be able to utilize it. It's not clear at all whether any location is useable or not either.

 

Also, I believe the WoB isn't that people from Sel have a hard time worldhopping, but that the cognitive realm around Sel is particularly inhospitable and that you wouldn't want to visit it.

 

I think the WoB was that the people of a Sel had a particular setback in their development of Worldhopping, which they had to overcome (which slowed their Cosmere-awareness even though they are now still ahead). This might refer to the fact that their particular magic system is difficult to use to Worldhop in the first place (to potentially discover other systems that are easier), or that something about their Cognitive Realm equivalent caused an issue.

 

What are you referring to, here?

 

I believe he is referring to Brandon stating that a guy asking about whether the fact that the Purelake, despite being so shallow, was so prominently mountainous in Shadesmar was onto something, or something else (I don't recall a question just about the mountains of Roshar though, I just remember this one about the Shadesmar Purelake mountains).

[MistLord]

Allomancy uses the power of Preservation, and Hoid had no problem using it on Roshar. I think the power of Shards can be accessed from anywhere in the universe, or at least within the galaxy the Cosmere is set in.

We've been made to assume however that the AonDor (without a giant Elantris-sized Aon Rao amplifier) is fairly impotent however. Also, Preservation's investiture is somehow stored within the metals used to power allomancy, while AonDor is supposedly an ever permeating force. Would that force be existent on other Shardworlds too? As by the name of the Shard that gives the power - Devotion - it doesn't seem likely, as it would most likely want to 'devote' it's power to one world.

 

Just food for thought (don't hurt me I'm new)

[PorridgeBrick]

snip

VANESSA (23 JANUARY 2013)

Does the chasm on Sel have a counterpart in the cognitive realm?

BRANDON SANDERSON (23 JANUARY 2013)

Yes, it does. But moving around there is really tough . . .

There's been enough speculation that an Elantrian world hopper appears in Way of Kings and that an Elantrian world hopper wrote the Ars Arcanum in Alloy of Law to make it likely that by the time of both books, at least some Elantrians can world hop. So my question is, at the time of Way of Kings, does Sel have the most cosmere-awareness out of any of your shardworlds (including ones we have not seen yet), or is there another Shardworld that's more aware of the greater cosmere at this time?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Sel is very cosmere aware at this point, but getting to and through Shadesmar (that's not the local term, by the way) is very difficult on Sel. That stunted them for a long while. They're still fairly far ahead.

Edit:

We've been made to assume however that the AonDor (without a giant Elantris-sized Aon Rao amplifier) is fairly impotent however. Also, Preservation's investiture is somehow stored within the metals used to power allomancy, while AonDor is supposedly an ever permeating force. Would that force be existent on other Shardworlds too? As by the name of the Shard that gives the power - Devotion - it doesn't seem likely, as it would most likely want to 'devote' it's power to one world.

 

Just food for thought (don't hurt me I'm new)

Careful with that bit on Preservation– the power of Preservation is not actually in the metals. They're purely nonmagical. Even soulcast metal can be burned. The molecular structure of the metal acts as a gateway for Preservation's power to flow through the metal and into you. That power can be supplied even when you're worlds away, so I'm not sure there'll be too much problem with AonDor as long as you figure out the local symbols and have something to boost your power a la Elantris. Edited March 30, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Tempus]

Preservation's investiture is not stored within metals. For allomancy, the metal acts as a focus to which which an individual with an innate investiture (a misting) can access the general investiture permeating the world, consuming the metal in the process. In other words, metal on Scadrial is like Aons on Sel.

 

As far as Devotion's investiture being limited to a world - it's very likely that Devotion's investiture is location tied, as we've seen a variety of location magics on Sel. It's unclear whether a Shard's investiture permeates the whole galaxy, whether the base type of investiture available is the same on every planet, and only it's manifestation differs in the intent, or some other system. In other words, it's unclear if an Allomancer on Roshar who burns a metal is using Preservation's investiture, or the investiture of Honor/Cultivation through the method Preservation gave to Allomancers. It is known that it is possible to jury-rig a system to use another manifested form of investiture - one of the easier ones being apparently that an Awakener who learnt how to hold Stormlight could use it easily for awakening. How an awakener would be able to hold stormlight without a Nahel bond is unanswered.

 

 

Edit: For PorridgeBrick

 

The Aon requires a bloodline. It is not enough to just just the picture to one of a different place. It apparently took several decades before the Aonic people (the immigrants to the Elantris area) began to transform and draw functioning Aons. It's mentioned in Elantris, it's mentioned in Emperor's Soul, it's in the Elantris Annotations, we've got several Word of Brandon's on it. The most clear and obvious one is in this interview, in question two. In direct word, it is mentioned that Aons are not invented by humans, that Aons are discovered, and that it takes several decades for a newly arrived people to begin to be able to use them.

 

 

I've also mentioned it a couple times this thread, so I hope everyone can put the 'Just draw a different symbol' behind them for now - you need the symbol of the land, and you also need a bloodline tied to the land. It's also not clear at ALL if any given place works or if there needs to be specific things about it (like a surfeit of investiture, perhaps - Brandon once mentioned that mountains are important).

Edited March 30, 2014 by Tempus

[Crysanja]

atleast the first worldhop must have a way, which does not require much knowledge about youre destination.

how would they get knowledge about their destination? how do you explore a world, you dont know if it even exists?

 

maybe its more about locating the Shards. wonder if thouse are all at habitable worlds for humans.

 

 

guess you could travel to a moon without too many issues, but if it is a good idear is another thing =)

 

 

btw in this thread are alot of Elantris spoilers, maybe you should mark it in the thread title =)

maybe this thread should be moved somewhere else too

[PorridgeBrick]

We know using the regional magic requires a bloodline, but not necessarily the symbols. Those can apparently be substituted.

VIPER

Could soulstamps be carved that used Arelon as a base form instead of MaiPon?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's very interesting, isn't it?

[Ren]

Well, I'm not an expert on Cosmere, but...

We already know from WoB that different magics systems can work with different Investiture. For me that means that you can get your Investiture in a form of Stormlight, instead of just staying near the ever-radiating Elantris to power you up. The question is quite simple:

Can AonDor work with other another world's landscape as a foundation for Aons? And if it can, can you worldhop from one planet to another with it?

It doesn't have to be necessarily Aon Tia, it might be some other Aon. We know for sure that humans on the known planets barely know what are the boundaries of their magic system. (Awakening, Allomancy, AonDor, etc...)

That's it. Brandon said that there's a big hit in Elantris for worldhopping. I might be wrong. I might be looking in the wrong direction, but It makes sense for me.

Too bad, I'm not from NA and I don't have really time to go to his online Q&As, so I can ask.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Ren

[Tempus]

PorridgeBrick - Brandon says exactly nothing at all there. That is pretty much one of his infamous 'wiggle room' statements. He confirms nothing, he denies nothing, but he's right - talking about it is interesting. Also, a big difference between soul stamps and Aons is that soul stamps do not require the Shaod - they seem to be useable by anyone with MaiPon ancestry (unconfirmed). The Shaod is still kind of a mystery, so it's unclear exactly what is happening there.

 

Ren - if you had a different form of investiture as power (like using Stormlight, or Breath, instead of the Dor), then there should be some way to make Aons work, and I have no idea what the exact result would be. The big hint in Elantris for Worldhopping is suspected to be the mural in the hidden library of the Elantrian jmping/falling into the pool, and using it like a gate to get to some unspecified place (denoted by a yellow sphere, iirc).

 

It seems quite plausible that you could worldhop with Aons. They seem to have Aons for everything - it's the most versatile magic system we've seen in the cosmere. I don't see any reason why there wouldn't be a combination of Aons and modifiers to get yourself to the cognitive realm. Given enough augmentation, Aon Tia might even be able to let you world hop through the PHYSICAL realm, though it might only travel at the speed of light.

 

My personal stance is that it's more likely an Elantrian worldhopper would have success by finding a way to use native investiture to power Aons, than to trying to give himself some kind of land bond and write an entirely new Aonic system for an entirely new landscape from scratch, really really quickly.

[Crazy Mraize]

 A: Hoid has indeed gotten between worlds before through Shadesmar.

Q: And would you be willing to give us a hint as to how he does that?

A: There are hints in the books. There is a hint in the very first cosmere book I released. [that would be Elantris] Which I thought was a huge hint, but so far I haven't seen anyone talking about it. I thought for sure once people started figuring the cosmere, they would see the massive in-your-face hint I put in that book, but so far, as far as I know, no one has. Now, the one [hint] about the map, that one I don't think is obvious. I know people have been trying to figure it out. It's going to be fun once you figure it out, but it's not something huge and obvious. The Elantris once was, like, enormously "HIIINT!"

 

 

Isn't this fairly obvious, he uses a modified Aon Tia to teleport to new worlds as long as he knows the distance he needs to travel?

 

If it had to be done on Sel, Perhaps he uses Shadesmar to get to Sel and travel from there...

 

Or am I overlooking something since its been a year since I last read Elantris?

 

Brandon I believe also said magic from one world is possible on another, its just a question of converting the energy - I think he mentioned that in regard to someone using stormlight to power allomancy. We already see Lift uses food to power her stormlight, burning it like allomancy - it even confuses her spren. I just wonder if our boy Hoid hasn't figured out a way to modify his Aon Tia and use the local power source - stormlight - to power it instead of the city of Elantris' aon...

Edited April 3, 2014 by Crazy Mraize

[Crazy Mraize]

My thought was, "how many steps is if from Elantris to the shattered plains on Roshar?" After reading what Rock said, my thought now is that all shard pools are connected to the cognitive realm.

 

That's my other idea on this.  The pool on Sel is hardly explored.

[Tempus]

The big hint in Elantris for Worldhopping is suspected to be the mural in the hidden library of the Elantrian jmping/falling into the pool, and using it like a gate to get to some unspecified place (denoted by a yellow sphere, iirc).

 

 

Here's the exact quote:

 

 

It depicted a large mirrorlike blue oval. An Elantrian stood facing the oval, his arms outstretched and his eyes closed. He appeared to be flying toward the blue disk. The rest of the wall was black, though there was a large white sphere on the other side of the oval.

"Lake." The old Elantrian's voice was quiet but insistent.

"It's painted sideways," Karata realized. "See. he's falling into a lake."

Raoden nodded. The Elantrian in the picture wasn't flying, he was falling.

The oval was the surface of a lake, lines on its sides depicting a shore.

"It's like the water was considered a gate of some sort," Galladon said, head cocked to the side.

 

Note, it was a white sphere, not a yellow one.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Tempus

[eyestothesun]

That's my other idea on this.  The pool on Sel is hardly explored.

 

My thought is that the shardpools are connected through the Cognitive Realm, and that the reason Sel is hard to access through the Cognitive Realm is because Devotion splintering did something funky to the pool.

 

Of course, that's assuming it IS a shardpool, since of WoB is the pool isn't necessarily what we think it is. 

[GeoMancer]

Is it possible that the shardpools (if that is what they are) are gates that link all 3 realms (physical, cognitive and spiritual), rather that just being doorways between the cognitive and physical?

 

would this allow/explain the elantrian effect?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Is it possible that the shardpools (if that is what they are) are gates that link all 3 realms (physical, cognitive and spiritual), rather that just being doorways between the cognitive and physical?

 

would this allow/explain the elantrian effect?

 

Well, we know that much of the magic is based on perception in the Cosmere, and the pool in Elantris will only take "dissolve" the Elantrian if they want to go. Would it be much of a stretch to assume that this is basically an inter-realm kind of taxi?  I would assume it took the old Elantrian to the Spirtual Realm, because he wished to leave his body and pain behind, so my thought would be that it can also take you through either to the cognitive realm if requested, or that it could even wormhoe someone to another world in the Cosmere, provided they know the right way to request it of the pool. Hoid would then have had to travel through the cognitive realm to get to know the routes, but then, could use the pools as a sort of cosmere quick-travel.

[AerionBFII]

Q:  Do you know how you're going to write how Hoid goes between worlds?

A:  Yes I do.  There is a big clue in [WoR]. There is a very big clue in the very first book I published.  

 

 

Somebody might have said this its too late for me to read the posts but hope this helps

[Tempus]

That just predisposes me even MORE towards the shardpools. The weird thing is that Hoid on Scadrial seems to be able to World Hop without any shardpools being accessible.