My theory on the Bondsmiths

[Rybal]

Sorry, I don't have my book with me so won't have exact quotes.

 

I agree with the theories that, just as Dalinar bonded the Stormfather, someone else will bond the Nightwatcher. I do not know who the third major Spren is that will be bonded.

 

Personally, I think that the purpose of the Bondsmiths is to encourage their respective Spren to allow those subordinate to them to bond with humans. We've seen that the Stormfather and Nightwatcher both have a certain influence over specific spren related to their corresponding Shard.

 

Also, it was interesting to learn that the PLACEMENT of the bond was pivotal to the formation of the Surges. (Side note: I still hold to the thought that Nohadon created the rules that currently govern the Nahel bond.)

 

Although, now that I think about it, this is making me think of two other things.

 

First, having three Bondsmiths who each bond a splinter Spren would give additional support to the theories that Odium was not one of the Three mentioned in the WoK epigraph.

 

Additionally, having 3 Bondsmiths would also leave 9 other Orders, which would either result in an even distribution of spren (3 each) subordinate to each of those Spren or it would mean that it would be disproportionate. Regardless, if my theory holds true, it would mean that the understanding of spren that they have in the book is flawed, since there would then be three categories, rather than two.

 

 

Anyway, feel free to comment - accept, reject, modify, etc. I'm looking forward to your thoughts.

[deadlyDomino]

Possibly Cusicesh for the third bondsmith? That's the only other huge spren we've seen at this time, unless you count whatever Voidspren rules the Everstorm. Maybe Eshonai will be the third bondsmith, bonding the Everstormspren? I know Brandon has hinted that Parshendi could possibly become KR, and Eshonai is getting a book focused on her. Hmm.

[Rybal]

Possibly Cusicesh for the third bondsmith? That's the only other huge spren we've seen at this time, unless you count whatever Voidspren rules the Everstorm. Maybe Eshonai will be the third bondsmith, bonding the Everstormspren? I know Brandon has hinted that Parshendi could possibly become KR, and Eshonai is getting a book focused on her. Hmm.

 

But remember, the three that were talked about were during a period just after the Recreance, so it is highly unlikely that the Voidspren would be one of those.

 

Also, though I know that he's said that Eshonai would be the third POV character and that each book would focus on one of the different orders, there is nothing to say that the two HAVE to be the same. All indications from WoR show that the Parshendi cannot bond spren in the same way that humans do. Whatever method of bonding they use completely transforms every aspect of who they are.

[Bloodfalcon]

It sounded to me like there were a couple of characteristics that fit the Stormfather spren that qualify two other candidates that we have heard mentioned. They boil down into this though - They move around, and they distribute something to the people who are in X range. I'm speaking of the two spren that Taravangian has been tracking. 

The Stormfather travels around Roshar distributing Stormlight and crem. 

 

Spren 2 travels around (as noted by Mr. T) and distributes the Deathrattles.

 

Spren 3 is also mobile (same reason (I think)) and distributes the Thrill.

 

Whether or not they are mobile, I guess, does not matter, but it indicates that they are sentient beings instead of natural forces alone that occur everywhere. 

 

So my thought was that one is from Honor (Stormfather), the second is from Cultivation (Nightwatcher?) because it has to do with future sight sort of thing, and the third is of Odium (?) because of the whole loving to cut living things to pieces mechanic of the Thrill.

As evidence of the Deathrattles being Cultivation, several times people say that seeing the future is of the Voidbringers, but we know to some degree that this is a little bit unfounded because Renarin is a Surgebinder and as far as I know, not a Voidbringer. 

I don't know if any of this is right, but I've stopped creating theory threads of my own, and this seemed like the best time to drop this down. 

[name_here]

The Diagram indicates that the two spren Taravangian is tracking are Unmade, and even assuming that both of them are duplicate names for ones mentioned elsewhere, there are three or four of them mentioned so far. I doubt any of them were linked to Bondsmiths historically; Yelig-nar was most definitely hostile to humanity and Nergaoul generates the Thrill, while we don't know much about the others. Moelach produces the Death Rattles, but I'm not convinced they're intentionally helpful and the way they require the death of humans makes me think they're bad news. Precognition might not be exclusive to voidspren, but they definitely have it.

[Radiant_thoughts]

I have a similar theory about these "godspren" for lack of a better word, being the dawnshards. And hence bondsmiths having access to dawnshards. The more I think about it, it seems to be one or the other, and I like your theory. Idk. That's the fun of speculations. I have a related question, does the nightwatcher equal the old magic, or does it only make up some of it. Basically is there more old magic or just the nightwatcher.

[Haradion Drogon]

Yelig-nar and Moelach and Cusicesh?

 

I have read WOR recently, but don't remember those names. Mind enlightening me?

[name_here]

Yelig-nar: two mentions in TWoK, once in the notebook ("Yelig-nar, called Blightwind, was one who could speak like a man, though his voice was often accompanied by the wails of those he consumed") and once with Nohandon saying Yelig-nar had slaughtered all his wordsmen.

 

Moelach: mentioned in Taravangian's Interlude and in the Diagram, responsible for the Death Rattles and the Unmade with the greatest significance for precognition

 

Cusicesh: the Axies Interlude in TWoK, called the Protector and appears in the harbor of a city looking east for a fixed duration at a certain time of day.

Edited March 24, 2014 by name_here

[Bloodfalcon]

The Diagram indicates that the two spren Taravangian is tracking are Unmade, and even assuming that both of them are duplicate names for ones mentioned elsewhere, there are three or four of them mentioned so far. I doubt any of them were linked to Bondsmiths historically; Yelig-nar was most definitely hostile to humanity and Nergaoul generates the Thrill, while we don't know much about the others. Moelach produces the Death Rattles, but I'm not convinced they're intentionally helpful and the way they require the death of humans makes me think they're bad news. Precognition might not be exclusive to voidspren, but they definitely have it.

It's a good point, but the Stormfather isn't exactly trying to help humans either. In fact, he summons a storm to annihilate them all when the Everstorm is coming. There needs to be a limited amount of them and they need to be spren, and these god-spren fit the bill better than anything. We don't know much about Unmade right now anyway.

[deadlyDomino]

I'm pretty certain that the nightwatcher is the second bond smith spren- in lift's interlude, she gets the food to storm light ability from the nightwatcher, and wyrndle calls the nightwatcher his mother, like syl is the stormfather's daughter. The dawnshards theory is interesting, and we still have no idea what cusicesh actually does :/

[Goatborn]

You all beat me to the punch! I had this same theory cooking today, then posted it without a thorough enough search.

 

I'm firmly in the Stormfather-Nightwatcher-Unknown Odium Splinter as the Bondsmith Spren. I'm really just running with the symmetry of Honor-Stormfather and Cultivation-Nightwatcher. Following that assumption, Odium should have a badass spren rolling around Roshar. Purely conjecture following a single point observation, so it's not too scientific...

 

I like the idea of 3 sets of Radiants capped off by the Bondsmiths, and I think the Odium Splinter fits into that. Renarin's precog abilities might be of the same triad of spren that derive from Odium. I'd also like to place the Cryptics in that category as well - they have a penchant for lying and seem to feed off that, which I'm associating with Odium due to the negative nature of lying.

 

Assuming three categories of Radiants:

 

Honor:

-Windrunners

-Skybreakers

-

Cultivation:

-Edgedancers

-

-

Odium:

-Lightweavers

-Truthwatchers

-

 

I don't know enough to categorise the rest, let alone the ones I've entered in. The only ones I'm confident with are Windrunners and Edgedancers (because we've been slapped in the face with them).

 

And placing Skybreakers under Honor may annoy a few people, but I think the ideals of justice are more Honor than Odium, regardless of how the constable was using them.

 

What do you think? How would Odium's spren manifest? It could be the one generating the Thrill - instilling the need to kill and maim when it is nearby.

[deadlyDomino]

The one generating the Thrill is Moelag (sic), who is probably one of the Unmade. They're a whole different kettle of theories and fish.

Personally, I'm not convinced that the third bondsmith spren will be Odium's - it wouldn't make any sense for Odium to give any power to his enemies, plus he's not actually on Roshar like Honour and Cultivation are, he's on Braize. My own crackpot theory is that there's a fourth shard involved. Possibly the survival share masking it's power behind two other shards?

Also cusicesh just seems cool and I want to see more of it.

[Bloodfalcon]

The one generating the Thrill is Moelag (sic), who is probably one of the Unmade. They're a whole different kettle of theories and fish.

Personally, I'm not convinced that the third bondsmith spren will be Odium's - it wouldn't make any sense for Odium to give any power to his enemies, plus he's not actually on Roshar like Honour and Cultivation are, he's on Braize. My own crackpot theory is that there's a fourth shard involved. Possibly the survival share masking it's power behind two other shards?

Also cusicesh just seems cool and I want to see more of it.

We have it said explicitly by Brandon that

1) The Unmade could potentially be bonded.

 

2) There have only been 3 Shards on Roshar.

[deadlyDomino]

Bugger, hadn't seen that. And here I thought I was being clever.

There's definitely multiple Unmade though, right? So why only bond one of them?

[Bloodfalcon]

There's definitely multiple Unmade though, right? So why only bond one of them?

Yeah, that is a good question I don't know the answer to. And it is only a theory that they contribute to the Bondsmith spren group. BUT, there used to be 3 Bondsmiths. Brandon said there still is a limited amount, but perhaps the Unmade are more recent but qualify. Maybe there are like.... 6 potential Bondsmiths now. Could also be for another Order or none at all. 

[deadlyDomino]

We know the unmade are god-spren, like nightwatcher and stormfather, but the fact there's at least 5 of them just from odium, plus the certain existence of other giant (possibly godly) spren, indicates that it doesn't have to be an Odium bondsmith. Either Honour or cultivation have more than one god spren. Maybe.

Edited March 26, 2014 by deadlyDomino

[Tempus]

He said it would be possible to bond the Unmade, but implied it would be difficult. 

 

 

 

Q: Before the Recreance, there were three Bondsmiths. Did they all bond superspren, or is Dalinar an exception?
A: They did something similar.

Q: Can the Unmade be bonded?
A: Wow … plausible. Er, possible, I should say.

 

Also... 

 

 

 

Q:  If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?
A:  It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn’t necesarily do the exact same things.  It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn’t grant the same powers. 

 

 

 

Q:  Could a Seon, or a Skaze, could they turn into a, some sort of Shardblade on their own planet?
A:  That is theoretically possible. It's—I mean they work under the same fundamentals, but they would need to have something to pull them more into the physical realm.

 

 

So ANY splinter can be bonded, it seems. And the Unmade are just splinters. And the 'superspren' are not the only possible bondsmith bonds, the bondsmiths just do something 'similar' to bonding superspren. Similar does not mean 'the same'.

[deadlyDomino]

Thinking about the Unmade, would it be difficult to bond them simply because they're so dangerous and murdery, and probably willing to kill you on a whim? Or would it be because, rather than being honourable to get an Honourspren, you'd have to be an evil psycho to get Re-Shepir. I wish we had WoB for this, or book 3.

[Bloodfalcon]

He said it would be possible to bond the Unmade, but implied it would be difficult. 

 

 

So ANY splinter can be bonded, it seems. And the Unmade are just splinters. And the 'superspren' are not the only possible bondsmith bonds, the bondsmiths just do something 'similar' to bonding superspren. Similar does not mean 'the same'.

Would you mind elaborating? I don't really know where you are going with this. He didn't imply that it would be difficult. If anything, he just put emphasis on the rarity. The superspren portion uses the word similar. So the beings that they bond are more like superspren than unlike superspren. The suggested correlation is what this theory is about. Any better than that and he would have been straight up confirming that the old Bondsmiths bond god or super spren. 

[weebojello]

So, lets say we have what is it, 6 Unmade? 7? Nonetheless, lets say you have a fixed number of Unmade, and it's less than 10. Sticking with this, we know the following:

 

1) With dawnshards (which we are all unsure of), they could be bonded / bound.

 

2) As splinters, they too could be "splintered". That's technically more a possibility is it not? If all the splinters are in turn splintered - bereft of conscious will, left only on unfocused intent - would that not permanently stymie Odium?

[menacekop]

We have it said explicitly by Brandon that

1) The Unmade could potentially be bonded.

 

2) There have only been 3 Shards on Roshar.

 

Are you sure about that second statment?

 

Brandon has said that ALL shards had been on Roshar in some way, which i think the current popular belief is that Adonalsium was there at one point. 

 

With that said I also think i have read what you are refering to about 3 shards CURRENTLY being on Roshar, but we need to know exactly how the question and answer were phrased because if he meant Roshar the planet (not greater roshar the system) then that puts only 2 known shards on Roshar with odium being on Braise.

 

Ill admit though im mostly questioning your reply because I really like the idea of a 4th hidden shard being in the mix!

 

[Aoibheann]

For some reason I thought there were 10 Unmade; sort of evil counterparts for the Heralds. 

[Matrim Bloody Cauthon]

interesting theory. I believe that the other spren could be the one of the everstorm. but in reply to deadlydomino I don't think that the parshendi could become KR. because the KR were made to protect against the voidbringers. the parshendi are voidbringers I don't think that they could become KR for that reason.

[Bloodfalcon]

Are you sure about that second statment?

 

Brandon has said that ALL shards had been on Roshar in some way, which i think the current popular belief is that Adonalsium was there at one point. 

 

With that said I also think i have read what you are refering to about 3 shards CURRENTLY being on Roshar, but we need to know exactly how the question and answer were phrased because if he meant Roshar the planet (not greater roshar the system) then that puts only 2 known shards on Roshar with odium being on Braise.

 

Ill admit though im mostly questioning your reply because I really like the idea of a 4th hidden shard being in the mix!

 

He definitely said currently, and someone did ask him a question about Adonlasium/Roshar, but I don't have time to find it. There are SO MANY interview recordings and transcriptions. I tried to start creating my own personal database of important ones in a blog post and found that it is incredibly difficult to categorize, and also I had no idea the size of that task. I'll try to find the ones I'm referencing, but I'm at work now, so I can't. Pretty sure he laid it out though that there is no 4th Shard involvement. Sorry to disappointing It might be good for us though, because there is already so much going on. Leave some for other stories just for my sanity.

 

For some reason I thought there were 10 Unmade; sort of evil counterparts for the Heralds. 

 

Argent just made a post from one of the signings where he specifically says that 10 is not the number of Unmade. I came away thinking there were probably less, but I can't remember off the top of my head. 

EDIT: Here is the Unmade one

Quote

Q: Is the number of the Unmade fixed?

A: Yes.

Q: Is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten?

A: Is it ten? No, it's not ten.

So I guess I had no reason from this to assume it was less than 10. That was an assumption. My bad.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Bloodfalcon

[Tempus]

Would you mind elaborating? I don't really know where you are going with this. He didn't imply that it would be difficult. If anything, he just put emphasis on the rarity. The superspren portion uses the word similar. So the beings that they bond are more like superspren than unlike superspren. The suggested correlation is what this theory is about. Any better than that and he would have been straight up confirming that the old Bondsmiths bond god or super spren. 

 

It's a logical connection. If Brandon had meant 'The bonsmiths bond specifically with the Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Custardworm' (I'm not gonna try and spell it, sorry), then he wouldn't have said similar. What similar implies is that the Bondsmith do require a specific quality in their spren, one which is unusual, and which at least the Stormfather meets, but that is not necessarily the Stormfather himself.

 

It could be, for example, that Bondsmiths only bond with Spren who lead political factions - we know the Stormfather leads the political faction currently calling themselves Honorspren (and that there has been more than one group that tried to be called honorspren in the past). That would correspond well with their creed of uniting and leading. Or it may be they just require spren of unusual power. Or another, as yet unknown possibility.

 

It's also telling that it never says there are 'always exactly three bondsmiths'. It says, in actuality, 

 

 

“But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.”

 

Excerpt From: “From Words of Radiance, chapter 16, page 14”

 

Since Words of Radiance is a history, it means 'At that time, there were only three bondsmiths, and this was pretty normal for them - they didn't want a lot of members.' This does not mean three is the absolute number, only the current amount and the usual amount.

 

Also telling is the use of the word seditious, which means 'to cause people to rebel against authority'. Which means that the thing about their spren that is specific is likely that the spren held some sort of authority unusual to spren.