My theory on the Bondsmiths

[Bloodfalcon]

 

It's a logical connection. If Brandon had meant 'The bonsmiths bond specifically with the Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Custardworm' (I'm not gonna try and spell it, sorry), then he wouldn't have said similar. What similar implies is that the Bondsmith do require a specific quality in their spren, one which is unusual, and which at least the Stormfather meets, but that is not necessarily the Stormfather himself.

 

It could be, for example, that Bondsmiths only bond with Spren who lead political factions - we know the Stormfather leads the political faction currently calling themselves Honorspren (and that there has been more than one group that tried to be called honorspren in the past). That would correspond well with their creed of uniting and leading. Or it may be they just require spren of unusual power. Or another, as yet unknown possibility.

 

It's also telling that it never says there are 'always exactly three bondsmiths'. It says, in actuality, 

 

 

Since Words of Radiance is a history, it means 'At that time, there were only three bondsmiths, and this was pretty normal for them - they didn't want a lot of members.' This does not mean three is the absolute number, only the current amount and the usual amount.

 

Also telling is the use of the word seditious, which means 'to cause people to rebel against authority'. Which means that the thing about their spren that is specific is likely that the spren held some sort of authority unusual to spren.

 

 

Brandon is intentionally shifty at these signings a lot of the time. If things don't get RAFO'd, it is a refreshing treat to get a solid answer on something as big as this issue. 

We all know what the word similar means, but the way you are using it to define things is actually using it to say nothing at all. Like saying "they will meet some qualities but not all" could also mean that they meet everything except holding some authority over a group of spren. There are so many individual qualities, known and unknown, that you are effectively only saying that we don't know. Which is the point of theorizing. 

The number being three is discussed up above, and comes to the same conclusion. Those are some possibilities, but perhaps not all of the Bondsmith spren we will see. 

You slightly misinterpreted the seditious line as well. What the quote is saying is that because they are specific/special spren, limited in quantity, asking the Order to expand and recruit more members was going against the very nature of the Order. It was an explanation of the limited size and its perception, not of the type of spren. 

[Goatborn]

 

Since Words of Radiance is a history, it means 'At that time, there were only three bondsmiths, and this was pretty normal for them - they didn't want a lot of members.' This does not mean three is the absolute number, only the current amount and the usual amount.

 

Also telling is the use of the word seditious, which means 'to cause people to rebel against authority'. Which means that the thing about their spren that is specific is likely that the spren held some sort of authority unusual to spren.

 

 

Also due to the fact that Words of Radiance is a history, you have a scholar's twist on things. And if I recall correctly, it was written around 200 years after Recreance, so you've got even more confusion.

 

I agree with your assessment, but also lean more towards the side of "there were only ever three, but the scholar is leaving wiggle room in case she's wrong." The fact that at least one Bondsmith was holed up in Urithiru at any one time could lead to a damaged count. The Bondsmiths would want everyone to think there were at least one of their number in the city at all times, but there may have been rare instances where all three were needed out in the world, skewing the count.

 

Seditious could also refer to the idea that Bondsmiths were treated like king/boss Radiants but with no formal claim to power.

[Armless writer]

Brandon has said that each order has only one type of spren they can bond to. So the spren that the bondsmiths bond to have to have to be same type. I have a theory

Theory: Bondsmiths have three superspren that may be dawnshards the nightwatcher, Stormfather and Cuisheish with the Nightwatcher being mostly cultivation, Stormfather being mostly honor and Cuisheish being a mix of honor and cultivation. And if they divided up there bond to much the super spren would not like being split between many people.

Also has anyone asked Brandon what type of spren bondsmiths bond because that would clear this up?

[Tempus]

Brandon has said that each order has only one type of spren they can bond to. So the spren that the bondsmiths bond to have to have to be same type.

 

Do you have a quote on that? I haven't actually seen anything like that and I've been cruising the Brandon quotes a lot lately. Also, the 'superspren', or the well-known named spren, are definitely not the same type of spren. They share no particular known characteristics other than they are well known enough to be given a name. Everything else we know about them - appearance, role, behaviour, mythos, origin... those all differ vastly.

[WeiryWriter]

Are you sure about that second statment?

 

Brandon has said that ALL shards had been on Roshar in some way, which i think the current popular belief is that Adonalsium was there at one point. 

 

With that said I also think i have read what you are refering to about 3 shards CURRENTLY being on Roshar, but we need to know exactly how the question and answer were phrased because if he meant Roshar the planet (not greater roshar the system) then that puts only 2 known shards on Roshar with odium being on Braise.

 

Ill admit though im mostly questioning your reply because I really like the idea of a 4th hidden shard being in the mix!

 

We are positive about that second statement, see here and here.  And its heavily implied that he was talking about Adonalsium there.  Here is the actual WoBs:

 

Q: How many shards have ever been on Roshar?

A:*Brandon repeats question."

Okay, Oh boy, Um...I... Um....ehh...um

At one point, all of them were on Roshar, which is technically true.

 

Q: How many shards have invested their power on Roshar?

A: Technically, all of them did.

 

See how he uses the word "technically" there? Twice?  He wouldn't have used such language if all the shards had gone there independently.  Also we know that Adonalsium visited Roshar and left behind investiture, so "technically" so did all the shards.

The "there was 4th shard on Roshar" theory is one the crops up over and over again, but it is definitely false.

[Bloodfalcon]

 

We are positive about that second statement, see here and here.  And its heavily implied that he was talking about Adonalsium there.  Here is the actual WoBs:

 

 

See how he uses the word "technically" there? Twice?  He wouldn't have used such language if all the shards had gone there independently.  Also we know that Adonalsium visited Roshar and left behind investiture, so "technically" so did all the shards.

The "there was 4th shard on Roshar" theory is one the crops up over and over again, but it is definitely false.

 

Thanks Weiry. It's difficult to find support for most of this. Don't know how you slog through all that WoB, but I appreciate it.

[WeiryWriter]

Thanks Weiry. It's difficult to find support for most of this. Don't know how you slog through all that WoB, but I appreciate it.

 

Well it helps that I've read most everything, and I remember pretty much all of it, and then its just a matter of finding it.  But I like helping people out, the database isn't exactly conducive to finding some stuff...

[Bloodfalcon]

Well it helps that I've read most everything, and I remember pretty much all of it, and then its just a matter of finding it.  But I like helping people out, the database isn't exactly conducive to finding some stuff...

I spent several afternoons looking at that database - most of it on 5 or 6 topics that I care about most - and as good as my memory is, finding it again is a pain. You can only make shallow promises so many times before you just start saying, "Trust me, I saw it once, I swear."

I am going to try to work on that blog post of mine to organize the ones I feel are important, and recently a couple posts have started compiling them, so that is helping. All that considered, it is still great to have backup. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

There is other discussion similar to this going on in the Bondsmiths 3 thread

 

Since I started it, i'll sum it up to say that I think there are only ever 3 bondsmiths and that they bond the 3 super spren we know about/have seen... Stormfather, Cusciech, and the Nightwatcher. 

[Goatborn]

There is other discussion similar to this going on in the Bondsmiths 3 thread

 

Since I started it, i'll sum it up to say that I think there are only ever 3 bondsmiths and that they bond the 3 super spren we know about/have seen... Stormfather, Cusciech, and the Nightwatcher. 

 

What's the rationale behind Cusciech being a superspren? Apart from being the biggest unique spren we've seen?

 

I really don't feel like it belongs in the same tonnage as Nightwatcher and Stormfather at this point. It seemed more of an example of spren that don't have a particular function and are just really quirky.

[deadlyDomino]

What's the rationale behind Cusciech being a superspren? Apart from being the biggest unique spren we've seen?

I really don't feel like it belongs in the same tonnage as Nightwatcher and Stormfather at this point. It seemed more of an example of spren that don't have a particular function and are just really quirky.

I'm pretty sure Cusicesh is more than just a quirky normal spren; it's huge, it's one of three unique spren we know of (excluding the unmade, which we really have not enough info on) and Brandon gives it a whole interlude. Cusicesh could well just be an example of super spren, instead of the third and final one, but it's definitely not a normal spren.

[Bloodfalcon]

What's the rationale behind Cusciech being a superspren? Apart from being the biggest unique spren we've seen?

 

I really don't feel like it belongs in the same tonnage as Nightwatcher and Stormfather at this point. It seemed more of an example of spren that don't have a particular function and are just really quirky.

 

I agree. The others seem to be more sentient, have noticeable effects (e.g. a huge storm) and are somewhat mobile. We don't know that much about Big C, but he hasn't fit these qualities really. BUT that is also operating off of the assumption that the others will be like the Stormfather. That's not even close to a proven thing. For all we know, the Nightwatcher doesn't qualify but Big C does. Hard to find patterns with only one data point.

[Goatborn]

 Hard to find patterns with only one data point.

 

Yep, but tossing them around until that "oh!" moment is great fun!

 

Big C reminds me of the shadow events in A Tale of Time City by Diana Wynne Jones - if anyone read her works. In certain parts of the city, powerful moments in time (emotional, historical, etc) would echo back through time and holograms (sort of... more like imprints) of a person committing the imprinting act would be present from the beginning of time, without context. C appearing and gazing in one direction at a particular time reminded me of these events. Big C could just signify the idea of remembering those that die in highstorms, by gazing at the Origin.

 

All in all, he seems more echo than spren at this stage. It would be interesting to see what happens when he returns to the present, if he ever does.

 

And I have been assuming that Cultivation would be the second Smithspren. I can't think of any other candidates, because I'm clinging to the idea that Bondsmiths need to bond with a very specific subset of spren. Perhaps they could bond with a Cryptic King? There was a lot of mentions of Cryptics having cities in Shadesmar and seemed to imply a political/social order.

[Bloodfalcon]

Yep, but tossing them around until that "oh!" moment is great fun!

 

Big C reminds me of the shadow events in A Tale of Time City by Diana Wynne Jones - if anyone read her works. In certain parts of the city, powerful moments in time (emotional, historical, etc) would echo back through time and holograms (sort of... more like imprints) of a person committing the imprinting act would be present from the beginning of time, without context. C appearing and gazing in one direction at a particular time reminded me of these events. Big C could just signify the idea of remembering those that die in highstorms, by gazing at the Origin.

 

All in all, he seems more echo than spren at this stage. It would be interesting to see what happens when he returns to the present, if he ever does.

 

And I have been assuming that Cultivation would be the second Smithspren. I can't think of any other candidates, because I'm clinging to the idea that Bondsmiths need to bond with a very specific subset of spren. Perhaps they could bond with a Cryptic King? There was a lot of mentions of Cryptics having cities in Shadesmar and seemed to imply a political/social order.

 

Echos are a cool concept. There is also the Ring organization, which sounds like a group of spren, but I don't think they are of the same calibur as someone like the stormfather or the Nightwatcher. 

Now that I think about it, if you bonded the Nightwatcher, you would probably have some crazy boon/curse going on. Maybe Mr. T is a candidate?

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

I agree. The others seem to be more sentient, have noticeable effects (e.g. a huge storm) and are somewhat mobile. We don't know that much about Big C, but he hasn't fit these qualities really. BUT that is also operating off of the assumption that the others will be like the Stormfather. That's not even close to a proven thing. For all we know, the Nightwatcher doesn't qualify but Big C does. Hard to find patterns with only one data point.

 

 

What's the rationale behind Cusciech being a superspren? Apart from being the biggest unique spren we've seen?

 

I really don't feel like it belongs in the same tonnage as Nightwatcher and Stormfather at this point. It seemed more of an example of spren that don't have a particular function and are just really quirky.

 

The fact that the omniscient narrator dubs Cusciech a spren and it's not just Axies saying it is pretty good clue that he is a spren. He does seem to have something going on weird with him given his 10 minute display of faces looking toward the origin. Syl says that the Stormfather is "broken", my guess is, that is because of the Recreance. Big C seems very broken to me as well, more so than the Stormfather. To me C's brokenness would stem from the same event, loosing their bonds with their Bondsmiths. Didn't kill them, but it messed them up a bit. There is the draining effect that he has on everyone watching his performance that says he is very powerful...

 

Obviously it is a pet theory of mine and the only reason it make sense really is the fact that the Words of Radiance epigraphs talk about three Bondsmiths (on average I know) and we have only seen/heard about 3 uber-spren, one of which when bonded creates a Bondsmith Radiant. 

 

As to the Stormfather being in the same category as other spren because of motility... why do people assume that the Nightwatcher moves around? Everyone talks about going to her for a boon, not her seeking you out. Sounds to me like she's not very mobile. Big C at least moves in/around/through the harbor in that city. 

 

The other large highly mobile "spren" that we've heard about are by WoB, Unmade. And they don't seem like they are quiet the same as spren for bonding purposes based on WoB again. 

[Bloodfalcon]

The other large highly mobile "spren" that we've heard about are by WoB, Unmade. And they don't seem like they are quiet the same as spren for bonding purposes based on WoB again. 

 

People keep taking that WoB to mean it is unlikely, but he doesn't say that at all. In fact the word plausible is supposed to be taken with an air of probable. He took this back once he said it and used the word "possible" instead. How does that mean unlikely? My hope is actually that they will be the spren responsible for the Void equivalent of the Bondsmiths, but for now they fit the mold better than others despite their allegiances. In fact even their allegiances fit. As I said earlier, Stormfather is not at all pro-human at this point. At most he has ever felt bad for them (in the series of events we have seen).

[Asejet]

The 3 god spren in past who bonded with bondsmiths are probably dead.Or somewhere in the form of shardblade.

I think there will be more bondsmiths will introduced. Less likely of odium.

[Pathfinder]

Dalinar was told he would be shardless. Now whether this means all bondsmiths are shardless or not I don't think can be said but that does also imply in my mind that the spren don't HAVE to be dead and thereby in shardform

[Random Observations R Me]

This is my first post on this forum. So, I'd like to start out by saying "Hi" to everyone here.

 

Now: Theory time

 

Warning: I don't have any support for this. It is pure, 100%, unsweatened, no preservatives added, speculation.

 

I am personally(like a number of other people aparently) a supporter of the Stormfather/Nightwatcher/Coolfish(not going to spell it out 'cause I don't feel like scrolling up and don't have my book within easy reach) idea. Earlier there was a comment about Coolfish being like an echo and broken after the Recrience. This got me thinking, and well: What if Coolfish is in the non-shardblade godspren version of "screaming spren death" - like the vast majority of shardblades(Sylphrena and Pattern excluded), but as a godspren/superspren/Bondsmith spren?

 

This of course leads to another, slightly more disturbing  and worrying question: If such a state is possible, why did the Knights Radiant leave their spren in the form of shardblades? Why did they give mankind - who from what we've seen, clearly wasn't ready for such a thing - weapons on the scale of shardblades? True, shardblades aren't nukes, but still... Why?

[Shardlet]

I noticed (as a couple of others have) that the Bondsmith spren in the epigraph was referred to in the singular rather than the plural.  Also, the potentially variable number of Bondsmiths, though commonly 3, seems to indicated that the Stormfather/Nightwatcher/Cusicesh theory has some substantial holes in it.

For those of you who have set forth that the unmade may be potential Bondsmith spren, I can't see how that would work.  The KR were the opposition to Odium's forces.  Why would Odium'd unmade bond to to make a KR Bondsmith?  And, why would the KR trust anyone bonded to an unmade?

I am currently in the apparently very small 'the Stormfather is the only Bondsmith spren and can bond multiple KR' camp.

[OdiYum]

I don't know if anyone has said this yet, but did it seem like Dalinar forced the bond with the Stormfather?  From what we have seen with Syl and Pattern, spren and humans find each other.  Dalinar's bonding seems vastly different.  Maybe that's the awesome ability bondsmith's have?

[Shaggai]

This is my first post on this forum. So, I'd like to start out by saying "Hi" to everyone here.

 

Now: Theory time

 

Warning: I don't have any support for this. It is pure, 100%, unsweatened, no preservatives added, speculation.

 

I am personally(like a number of other people aparently) a supporter of the Stormfather/Nightwatcher/Coolfish(not going to spell it out 'cause I don't feel like scrolling up and don't have my book within easy reach) idea. Earlier there was a comment about Coolfish being like an echo and broken after the Recrience. This got me thinking, and well: What if Coolfish is in the non-shardblade godspren version of "screaming spren death" - like the vast majority of shardblades(Sylphrena and Pattern excluded), but as a godspren/superspren/Bondsmith spren?

 

This of course leads to another, slightly more disturbing  and worrying question: If such a state is possible, why did the Knights Radiant leave their spren in the form of shardblades? Why did they give mankind - who from what we've seen, clearly wasn't ready for such a thing - weapons on the scale of shardblades? True, shardblades aren't nukes, but still... Why?

Because their spren defaulted to Blades upon death. Maybe Cusicesh, since it presumably wasn't a sword at least for most of the time, wasn't forced into the sword category upon death? The sword thing is because they were patterned on the Honorblades, so presumably a spren that didn't become a weapon wouldn't end up as a Blade upon death.

 

1. I noticed (as a couple of others have) that the Bondsmith spren in the epigraph was referred to in the singular rather than the plural.  2. Also, the potentially variable number of Bondsmiths, though commonly 3, seems to indicated that the Stormfather/Nightwatcher/Cusicesh theory has some substantial holes in it.

3. For those of you who have set forth that the unmade may be potential Bondsmith spren, I can't see how that would work.  The KR were the opposition to Odium's forces.  Why would Odium'd unmade bond to to make a KR Bondsmith?  And, why would the KR trust anyone bonded to an unmade?

I am currently in the apparently very small 'the Stormfather is the only Bondsmith spren and can bond multiple KR' camp.

1. Spren could mean spren type, or singular.

 

2. If one of them wasn't bonded at some point, there could be fewer. More might be seen as blasphemous because it would require an Unmade.

 

3. Absolutely. Honorspren bind their host to a code of honor. Even if the Unmade wanted to defeat Odium (as I theorize), they wouldn't be able to choose how their hosts would be forced to act. They may be different segments of Odium's personality, but it's all hatred at the bottom and anyone bonded with the Unmade would be untrustworthy. They would more likely be the equivalent of Bondsmith spren for Voidbinders.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Shaggai