Theory: The First Ideal is Artificial

[Moogle]

The tl;dr of this theory is that the First Ideal of the Knights Radiant is unnecessary. Or rather, that it was not present originally in Surgebinding, and it was not a part of the magic system, but it was later bolted on, but the Second Ideal/Words for each Order were originally there. It is enforced by the Almighty, or perhaps the Stormfather, but it exists purely as a way for Ishar to have created the Knights Radiant and the spren don't really care about it, beyond the fact that they are (possibly) required to get their bondees to utter it before anything else.

 

Surgebinding's Atium

Atium was poorly understood in Mistborn. I will not say more because of spoilers, but I think we can take the same approach to uncover a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of Surgebinding by the main characters of SA.

 

The First Ideal is the black sheep of the Ideals. Compare and contrast:

• The main Ideals of every Order are specific. I will protect those that cannot protect themselves. I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right. I will unite instead of divide. I will stand. I will remember those that have been forgotten. In comparison, the First Ideal is incredibly vague. There is no "I" in it. Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
• Every Ideal of the Lightweavers has to do with self-truths. We would expect all their Ideals to deal with self-truths (consistency is important in systems, physical or magical)... and they do, except for the First Ideal, which seems quite random next to those.
• The First Ideal brings no bursts of magical strength for Kaladin. Both times he speaks Ideals, Syl gets very excited, and there is a prompt Stormlight explosion (or at least, increased efficiency). Lift similarly gets a super burst of Stormlight when she speaks her Second Ideal and uses Regrowth when she should have been unable.
• Each Ideal comes to the mind of the speaker unprompted. No voice speaks into their mind, they just know it. Dalinar knows his Second Ideal instantly, but he and Kaladin both have to learn the First Ideal from the bridgemen. Shallan/Jasnah similarly would have learned it, though it's possible Jasnah never spoke it.
• Breaking the First Ideal, or betraying it, has no consequences for the Surgebinder. Kal is on the brink of suicide (blatantly against 'life before death' even by the most liberal interpretations), and Syl has no issues with it. Syl was attracted to Kaladin because of how he protected people, and the bond with Syl is only broken because Kaladin refuses to protect (breaking the as-yet unspoken Third Ideal). Suicide was a-okay with the bond. Both the Second and Third Ideals have to do with protecting. Again, the First Ideal is the odd one out.
• The Stormfather does not react to Dalinar speaking the First Ideal, only the second, which is when he says "these Words are accepted". [Edit: We now have a WoB on this. "Regarding Dalinar: He said that Dalinar has had a bond with the Stormfather "for a while." He also only said one oath at the top of the Urithiru tower, not two. Dalinar conveyed a single idea in that particular oath." (source)]

Why do I think it was made? We know from other Cosmere novels that magic systems can be altered (more specifically, the way you access the magic can be altered, though not the actual magic). Consider the following quotes:

 

 

But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 2, page 4

 

 

“What do you think should be done with these Surgebinders?” Dalinar asked carefully.

“I don’t know if we can force them to do anything.” Their footsteps echoed in the empty room. Were there no guards, no attendants? “Their power… well, Alakavish proves the allure that Surgebinders have for the common people. If only there were a way to encourage them….”

The man stopped, turning to Dalinar. “They need to be better, old friend. We all do. The responsibility of what we’ve been given—whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond—needs to make us better.”

 

 

“I will train your soldiers. We should have time. Ishar keeps talking about a way to keep information from being lost following Desolations. And you have discovered something unexpected. We will use that. Surgebinders to act as guardians  .  .  . Knights  .  .  .”

 

The First Ideal was the Radiant's motto, not the motto of Surgebinders.

 

Shallan's Words are not really Ideals. They don't inspire her to be a better person, just to know herself better. Pattern doesn't seem to really care about Shallan murdering or really care much about the First Ideal. I think that the second and onward Words were chosen by the spren, and likely already existed pre-Nohadon. But then Nohadon created his book, and Ishi seized on the opportunity after a bad Desolation where Surgebinders led to a weakened nation from civil war to bind them all to Nohadon's Ideal: Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.

 

Certain spren would have loved this. Syl certainly mentions liking the sound of 'journey before destination', while Pattern seems significantly less enthused. I would predict the more honorable spren like the First Ideal more than the cultivationy spren.

 

This would have been enforced by the Stormfather (who can apparently control the passage of spren like Syl, though whether he can prevent other spren than honorspren is an open question). Or, perhaps, every spren had to swear to Ishar that they would make their bondees speak the First Ideal or else Ishar would destroy them. I'm not sure here, though open to suggestions. [Edit: It seems significantly less likely that it is 'enforced' the more I think about it. Another possible avenue is that Ishar forced every Knight to swear oaths, and this then bound the spren into requiring the First Ideal. The spren are changed by human perceptions, and if every Surgebinder is seen as requiring to speak the First Ideal, then that should eventually change to become the case. Spren are very malleable, and this is definitely something Ishar could have managed via mass propaganda.]

 

Any evidence against this theory? A few quotes popped to mind while I wrote this, but I didn't find them to be very strong evidence against, so I left them out. For example, Dalinar hears life before death in his head, though that's the only part of it he hears - and I interpreted this as an echo of Honor's voice in his mind from the visions. Besides, Kaladin never heard the Words in his head, he just knew them.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Moogle

[Guest Monster Energy]

There always has been something nagging at me when I thought of the First Ideal. You put to words my nameless instinct.

I will accept this as a prevailing theory pending further information.

[Grayv]

I also agree with this theory, I believe in one of the Q&A's that Brandon says that what Adolin did at the end of the novel would be accepted by some of the orders. But to me, this grinds against the first idea.

[Seloun]

Taravangian says:

 

 

“No. It’s more.” They had survived. Taravangian stood up. “Wake every Alethi sleeper we have ; send every agent in the area. There will be stories told of one of these bridgemen. Miraculous survival. Favored of the winds. One is among them. He might not know yet exactly what he’s doing, but he has bonded a spren and sworn at least the First Ideal.”

 

So he believes that the First Ideal has some kind of mechanical effect (otherwise I don't know why he'd distinguish it). Taravangian could certainly be wrong, however. My guess though is that the First Ideal provides the ability to regenerate Shardblade damage, since that's the key attribute Szeth talks about during his meeting with Taravangian.

 

I do agree that Surgebinding almost certainly existed before the First Ideal, but I'm not sure that the other Ideals existed before then either. I figured that what Ishi required of the spren is that they follow _some_ kind of progression, but was willing to leave the specifics to the spren.

 

It's also pretty clear the First Ideal is special, since the KR as a whole follow it, but I figured that the First Ideal is the overriding Ideal, while the individual Ideals are about how the specific Order/KR will attempt to implement the First Ideal. The First Ideal is the Destination, and the Order-specific Ideals/growth is the Journey.

[Moogle]

Taravangian says:

 

 

So he believes that the First Ideal has some kind of mechanical effect (otherwise I don't know why he'd distinguish it). Taravangian could certainly be wrong, however. My guess though is that the First Ideal provides the ability to regenerate Shardblade damage, since that's the key attribute Szeth talks about during his meeting with Taravangian.

 

That is a very nice quote. Thank you. I guess it's possible that it has a mechanical effect? I'm not sure where I stand on this. It could stem from inaccurate histories, I guess. I think the theory still stands that the First Ideal was imposed there later, though I am ~70% confident that the later Ideals would have already been there (though perhaps undiscovered?).

[b4dave]

I don't think that the First Ideal is one that is spoken, but one that is lived. In TWoK, Kaladin chose to live rather than to give himself over to death. From there he found in himself the strength to go on, rather than give over to weakness, both of which signify, to me, that he is willing to take the journey of life, over the destination of death. From here the Ideals would become more specific for each of the orders, but I think all of them have to reach a point of despair, and choose to live in order for the spren to fully be able to bond with a potential KR.

 

So I don't think its artificial, I think its built into the Ideals to ensure that they have to see the worst that life has to offer, and still want to protect it. 

Edited March 19, 2014 by b4dave

[hoser]

I have two minor points that seem relevant,

The tl;dr ...

 

Shallan's Words are not really Ideals. They don't inspire her to be a better person, just to know herself better. Pattern doesn't seem to really care about Shallan murdering or really care much about the First Ideal. I think that the second and onward Words were chosen by the spren, and likely already existed pre-Nohadon. But then Nohadon created his book, and Ishi seized on the opportunity after a bad Desolation where Surgebinders led to a weakened nation from civil war to bind them all to Nohadon's Ideal: Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.

 

Certain spren would have loved this. Syl certainly mentions liking the sound of 'journey before destination', while Pattern seems significantly less enthused. I would predict the more honorable spren like the First Ideal more than the cultivationy spren.

 

This would have been enforced by the Stormfather (who can apparently control the passage of spren like Syl, though whether he can prevent other spren than honorspren is an open question). Or, perhaps, every spren had to swear to Ishar that they would make their bondees speak the First Ideal or else Ishar would destroy them. I'm not sure here, though open to suggestions.

1. According to Pattern, all the bonded Cryptics were wiped out in the Recreance.  So any Cryptics that Ishi swore to anything are gone, assuming that Ishi hasn't been busy swearing them since the Recreance, which seems unlikely. 
2. Shallan remembers saying the first Oath, which Pattern says is essential and, in fact, the only Oath that lightweavers have.

from ch 75 True Glory:

"Perhaps," Pattern said. "Or you could progress.  Become more.  There is something more you must do."

"Words?" Shallan said.

"You have said the Words," Pattern said, "You said them long ago.  No ... it is not words you lack.  It is truth." 

Edited March 19, 2014 by hoser

[Seloun]

That is a very nice quote. Thank you. I guess it's possible that it has a mechanical effect? I'm not sure where I stand on this. It could stem from inaccurate histories, I guess. I think the theory still stands that the First Ideal was imposed there later, though I am ~70% confident that the later Ideals would have already been there (though perhaps undiscovered?).

 

Yeah, I can't think of anything offhand that would actually contradict the main part of the theory, that the First Ideal was actually the last Ideal and the other Ideals existed before the KR. I think it's pretty much a given that the First Ideal is related to the KR, but AFAIK there's no further information about how the other Ideals were formed. I do think the First Ideal provides (possibly among other things) the ability to heal from Shardblade damage; this might explain why Honorblades don't generally provide that ability (it's something added on at KR founding long after the spren learned to copy Honorblade surges).

 

We'll have to see more individual Ideals, but I have to wonder if the Surgebinders would have really been that out of hand if they'd been bound by the other Ideals to start with. Honorspren are a terrible example since Nohadon specifically singles them out as not being part of the problem, and unfortunately they're the ones we have the most data on. Edgedancers, based on the single Ideal we've seen, also seem pretty 'good'. In fact, all of the Ideals we've seen appear to be pretty altruistic; the only exception are the non-Ideals of the Cryptics.

 

OTOH, even with the First Ideal and the rest it's clear the Orders had some conflicts, so maybe it's not really that crazy to think they'd have had outright warfare without a unifying single Ideal; it's tough to call.

 

Overall though I feel like the evidence for isn't really stronger than the evidence against regarding the Ideals existing before the KR. We can be pretty sure that the First Ideal came with the KR, and Occam's suggests that all of the Ideals did, too. The First Ideal is special, but the very layout of the Ideals structure pretty much ensures that. I can't say I'm convinced, but I don't have any direct counter-arguments.

[Kurkistan]

Interesting theory. A fair number of good arguments/evidence on each side, though.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that all of this needn't of have necessarily been stagnant since day X or Y in history. Spren are all about human perception and whatnot, so I imagine that the Ideals of various types could have developed/evolved/devolved over time, perhaps even all "naturally" without anyone specifically trying to change them.

[name_here]

I figured all the Ideals are artificial. They're the Ideals of the Knights Radiant, and as Jasnah points out the KR are an organization. My theory is and has been that Nohandon imposed the entire structure in order to rein in the Surgebinders and stop them from getting into brutal and massive wars that left humanity nearly too weak to fight off the Desolations and got the Stormfather and other godspren, or possibly Honor and Cultivation themselves, to change the nature of Surgebinding so that only people who followed the Ideals could use the power.

 

Though, also, the First Ideal is not a complete moral philosophy. It says you should place journey before destination but does not specify how you should pick one journey over another. Pattern doesn't see lying as ethically wrong, while Syl gets upset when Kaladin lies (though I don't think "I will always tell the truth, even when doing so is really stupid" is one of the Windrunner Ideals, it does get to her). All the First Ideal means in itself is that wrong actions don't become right because of their outcomes.

[Aleksiel]

There must be a way of ensuring the First Ideal is followed, because a law nobody enforces is useless. So, if it wasn't the bonded spren who assured surgebinders were in compliance with it, then who? Ishi certainly couldn't have watched day and night all surgebinders and the Stormfather likely didn't have the power to forcefully return a spren back to Shadesmar when their human misbehaved.

 

If breaking the First Ideal has no consequences, there's no point in it, which is what you are saying. However, it must have had power in the past regardless of how things are now. It has served a purpose then, but something changed. Is it because the Almighty is no more? He was surprised by the surgebinders existence, but didn't say he never got involved with them. 

 

Ishi seems directly responsible for the First Ideal if we assume it wasn't there in the first place. May be the Bondsmiths were meant to ensure (guide) surgebinders followed it? Though I don't see how they could have done it and how it would fit their surges. Regardless, I still think the First Oath must have value.

 

Perhaps not speaking it means you don't get to be a KR, but a mere surgebinder and before you speak any oath, you have two ways ahead. So Kaladin wasn't on the Radiant path when he almost killed himself, and that was what kept his bond with Syl intact despite his actions.

[Moogle]

There must be a way of ensuring the First Ideal is followed, because a law nobody enforces is useless. So, if it wasn't the bonded spren who assured surgebinders were in compliance with it, then who? Ishi certainly couldn't have watched day and night all surgebinders and the Stormfather likely didn't have the power to forcefully return a spren back to Shadesmar when their human misbehaved.

 

If breaking the First Ideal has no consequences, there's no point in it, which is what you are saying. However, it must have had power in the past regardless of how things are now. It has served a purpose then, but something changed. Is it because the Almighty is no more? He was surprised by the surgebinders existence, but didn't say he never got involved with them. 

 

These are very good points, and I've edited the main post with the following in response:

 

It seems significantly less likely that it is 'enforced' the more I think about it. Another possible avenue is that Ishar forced every Knight to swear oaths, and this then bound the spren into requiring the First Ideal. The spren are changed by human perceptions, and if every Surgebinder is seen as requiring to speak the First Ideal, then that should eventually change to become the case. Spren are very malleable, and this is definitely something Ishar could have managed via mass propaganda.

 

As to there being 'no point', I disagree somewhat. It's "worthless" in some respects, but it does serve a useful purpose: it provides a foundation that the Knights Radiant were built on, and it pushes Surgebinders to work together. This is very useful, even if it doesn't bind a Surgebinder to follow the First Ideal or risk losing the bond. It's better than nothing!

Edited May 1, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

If a surgebinder simply has to say the words without any subsequent control, does it really do anything? If the spren doesn't react to breaking it, is it really an oath? And who would follow a rule breaking the which stays without consequences?

 

It doesn't serve the purpose of allowing the bond as both Kaladin and Dalinar had started bonding without saying any ideals.  It can't be there just to ensure surgebinders become better people, else there would be consequences of breaking it.  

 

It might be something that all following oaths have to be in agreement with, but then we have Shallan. Admitting to murder doesn't fit with the spirit of the First Ideal the way I understand it, though it could be interpreted as fitting.

 

I agree the First Ideal doesn't seem to have much of a purpose nowadays, however I doubt it has been worthless in the past. If the Desolation and the return of the Voidbringers isn't happening as it used to, then it makes sense to me that something will be different about the KR as well.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Aleksiel

[maxal]

I can only agree. Dalinar says his First Ideal in such a casual way. The whole scene fells like if Dalinar woke up one day and decides to become a Radiant. To achieve this, all he has to do is scream a bunch of words.... I must say, it was way more profound when Kal said it. We could feel the progression. Same thing with Shallan. It felt forced for Dalinar and I don't get me started on Renarin.

[Numb]

I can only agree. Dalinar says his First Ideal in such a casual way. The whole scene fells like if Dalinar woke up one day and decides to become a Radiant. To achieve this, all he has to do is scream a bunch of words.... I must say, it was way more profound when Kal said it. We could feel the progression. Same thing with Shallan. It felt forced for Dalinar and I don't get me started on Renarin.

 

I think it felt forced for Dalinar because he had already been living by the ideal for so long, it's just the Stormfather is a fussy little girl who has to hear you specifically say the words to do anything. I view the stormfather has some mean old DMV person that won't do anything unless specifically told to even if it's implied or they know they are meant to be doing something. 

[Pathfinder]

Maybe depending on how far along the oaths you go, is how strong the consequence. When Kaladin was suicidal, he was at the start, so its kind of like......hmmm.....shift gears in a car that is manual? To shift first gear is easy and doesn't take as much speed, but once you hit second, then third, now you have momentum and it takes more speed to shift otherwise you wreck the car. So in that case for Kaladin to break his oaths just as he is reaching the third ideal (basically shifting down from almost third all the way down to first gear while still going like 70 miles an hour. btw I don't drive stick, so the mileage wont be accurate) has to take into account all that "momentum" of meaning or investiture

[snote]

During the final vision of The Way of Kings, Dalinar hears the Almighty say, "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. Speak again the ancient oaths and return to men the shards that once they bore." I don't know if this is an argument for or against the OP's theory. It just seems like it may be important to note. As the first idea is clearly stated by the Almighty himself, but then he says "Speak again the ancient oaths" as if what he just said wasn't a part of them. It may just be the first ideal is a motto instead of an oath, as has already been mentioned. An ideal that is designed to make them a cohesive unit as opposed to ten different groups.

[Left]

I think in order to live the right way and progress to the next oaths, you need the first one. I do agree that it as important.