Soulcasting as a weapon

[twilt]

Hey all

 

Ive read TWOK about 3 or 4 times since it came out- but not in the last 5 or 6 months, so if i remember wrongly please correct me!

 

I recall a scene where jasnah lured some thieves into an alley and then soulcasted them from a distance to kill them.

 

I was thinking, unless there is some limitation to this ability it would make it the single most powerful ability there is for combat?.

 

Im curious do you think, voidbringers can be soulcast?. Shardbearers?, people such as kaladin even?

 

 

[PudgyNinja]

Well, clearly it works, since we saw Jasnah do it. Though it may be some combination of her two surges. I can see transportation allowing her to soulcast at range, whereas Shallan needs to be touching the object.

That said, there are clearly some limitations. As we saw with Shallan's attempt with the stick, a strong sense of self-identity may provide resistance. Also, if I recall correctly, Jasnah drew enough stormlight during that episode that she cracked one or two of the gems she was using. That would definitely limit its use as a weapon.

[Heir of the Void]

Yes, plus instant-death attacks in the hands of a protagonist willing to use them can pretty much break a narrative, so there's probably a lot there we don't see. In D&D terms, it would probably be Will save to negate, at the very least.

 

Plus, it has been stated that any investiture interferes with the use of magic on the invested object. All humans have innate investiture, and Radiants have lots, and thus would be difficult to soulcast because they're main characters. Likewise, voidbringers have most likely bonded an Odiumspren, and thus have some investiture that would protect them from being soulcast directly.

[Lizzardborn]

Jasnah soulcasted Shallan's blood. That is low cost insta kill. All the fun things that it could be used at - soulcast the food as poison in the stomach or just create an air bubble in the bloodstream. With the bandits she was showing off and not trying for best efficiency.

[twilt]

I did wonder, that as mentioned perhaps the stronger the sense of 'self' the harder it is to soulcast a person?

So it worked on the thieves well because of that

 

Having said that, i dont recall any gems etc breaking when shallan had her blood soulcast?

 

It reminds me a bit of WOT really, where i always felt the 'smart' channelers would kill by stopping a heart etc.

Edited March 13, 2014 by trev1972

[Aminar]

Jasnah would be deadly for the first x people. But x isn't likely to be a large number. Soulcasting appears to cost quite a bit of stormlight and require specific gems in a way no other surge does. It seems to me Shards are just more efficient. I mean, once Jasnah rums out of light 10 to 30 soldiers into a battle she can't even use plate anymore. And I think the at range costs even more because unless I miss my guess she has to give her Spren the stormlight and that's proven to be more costly.

[Lizzardborn]

I need to only turn a few milligrams of your blood to super coagulator(snake venom) to make you have fun times in the afterlife.

Shallan had 6 liters. That is a lot of blood.

[PudgyNinja]

Shallan clearly wanted Jasnah to use the soulcaster to save her.  We have no idea if it would work on somebody who was opposed to the soulcasting.

 

Jasnah said that there was something special about soulcasting blood - aside from the fact that creating blood is easier than other complex organic materials, there may be other limitations as well.

 

Jasnah was likely able to touch Shallan to soulcast her blood - not at range like we saw against the muggers.  We've already discussed the enormous Stormlight cost that involved.

 

But the main reason Jasnah isn't going to be able to walk onto a battlefield and murder anybody she lays her eyes on instantly is that it would be a terrible narrative.

[Moogle]

But the main reason Jasnah isn't going to be able to walk onto a battlefield and murder anybody she lays her eyes on instantly is that it would be a terrible narrative.

 

Speak for yourself . I'd read the heck out of a book that was Jasnah being competent 24/7 while saving Roshar.

[PudgyNinja]

Oh, also, if Szeth couldn't lash someone in Shardplate, it's likely that it would stop Soulcasting, as well.

[Maximus]

I'm not convinced that the correct gemstone has to be used for innate soulcasting. With the fabrial, yes, because you have to specify the target material, but with innate you just have to tell it what you want it to become.

[Scott]

Oh, also, if Szeth couldn't lash someone in Shardplate, it's likely that it would stop Soulcasting, as well.

 

Shardplate protected Adolin against the stormform's lightning attacks, so I believe we've already seen this in action

[Aminar]

I need to only turn a few milligrams of your blood to super coagulator(snake venom) to make you have fun times in the afterlife.Shallan had 6 liters. That is a lot of blood.

That's some complicated stuff. Probably pretty difficult to change anything into. I mean Jasnah can't even manage Strawberry Jam. Probably costs a lot of stormlight due to its complicated molecular nature. Moreso than just turning a dude to something simple like Smoke.

[DocHoliday]

Shallan clearly wanted Jasnah to use the soulcaster to save her.  We have no idea if it would work on somebody who was opposed to the soulcasting.

 

I have to disagree. Jasnah turned a mugger into fire. I'm relatively sure his cognitive self did not appreciate that and was opposed to it.

I'm not convinced that the correct gemstone has to be used for innate soulcasting. With the fabrial, yes, because you have to specify the target material, but with innate you just have to tell it what you want it to become.

Originally I wasn't either, but we have two instances where we KNOW the gem was inherently important to the Soul-casting, she a third that supports this idea.

First is the poisoning scene. Jasnah specifically calls for a garnet to do the blood cleansing. That's pretty substantial evidence when our Roshar/Cosmere/Soul-casting expert says she needs it.  

Second is indirect. The gemstone economy. Emerald is at the top of the list of valuables, and that its specifically because it and only it can Soulcast food. 

 Thirdly my supporting evidence: smokestone. Every instance of seeing anything turned to smoke has the Soul-Caster bearing smokestone. That's Jasnah and the mysterious stranger who recruited Szeth.

 

In the first instance, I was willing to believe that this could be because blood is 1 of 10 essences. 

Food however isn't an essence. So its fair extrapolation to say Soul-casting requires specific gemstones.

[PudgyNinja]

I have to disagree. Jasnah turned a mugger into fire. I'm relatively sure his cognitive self did not appreciate that and was opposed to it.

Originally I wasn't either, but we have two instances where we KNOW the gem was inherently important to the Soul-casting, she a third that supports this idea.

 

Sure, but that was a common criminal, not a Radiant-in-training.  Also, that is the transformation that took so much stormlight that Jasnah's sphere's cracked.  The way she soulcast Shallan's blood was a very different procedure.

[Maximus]

I have to disagree. Jasnah turned a mugger into fire. I'm relatively sure his cognitive self did not appreciate that and was opposed to it.

Originally I wasn't either, but we have two instances where we KNOW the gem was inherently important to the Soul-casting, she a third that supports this idea.

First is the poisoning scene. Jasnah specifically calls for a garnet to do the blood cleansing. That's pretty substantial evidence when our Roshar/Cosmere/Soul-casting expert says she needs it.  

Second is indirect. The gemstone economy. Emerald is at the top of the list of valuables, and that its specifically because it and only it can Soulcast food. 

 Thirdly my supporting evidence: smokestone. Every instance of seeing anything turned to smoke has the Soul-Caster bearing smokestone. That's Jasnah and the mysterious stranger who recruited Szeth.

 

In the first instance, I was willing to believe that this could be because blood is 1 of 10 essences. 

Food however isn't an essence. So its fair extrapolation to say Soul-casting requires specific gemstones.

Yes, but in all of these cases they are either using a fabrial or pretending to use a fabrial.

 

When Shallan casts the goblet to blood she did use a garnet, so that's something, but she didn't exactly tell the goblet what she wanted.

 

In the "I am a stick" episode, it doesn't say what type of gem she was using. She failed, but she had Pattern coaching her. He surely would have known about gem types if that was important.

 

So I would say inconclusive so far.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

If you were going to use soulcasting as a weapon then bugger the people, target the environment.

 

Oh, I see you running towards me little voidbringer, how about I turn the ground you are running on to HCl.

[twilt]

It certainly could destroy narrative i think...

 

Imagine the scene

 

Szeth, slowly masters nightblood, and turns to evil- driven by guilt and corruptive influences of those around him.

He gains an odium spren, and even more lethal abilities.

 

He flies in, determined to strike down the fledgling radiants...

 

And 'poof' he disappears into smoke, as jasnah soulcasts him..

[marianmi]

* people bonded to spren have a strong shadesmar connection, Jasnah picking up Kaladin in Shadesmar may result in him looking straight back at her with Syl saying "Wassap?"

* also, soulcasting is a bit slow, if you consider stormlight-enhanced super-speed and all

* on top of that, I'm not sure you can soulcast invested objects. so just holding stormlight may make you immune.

[Heir of the Void]

* on top of that, I'm not sure you can soulcast invested objects. so just holding stormlight may make you immune.

 

Its establlished that any form of investiture provides magic resistance, i.e. a mistborn would have trouble pushing on a shardblade. Anyone holding stormlight, or maybe even bonded to a spren, would likely be resistant, if not immune.

[cris34b]

I like the idea of Soulcasting as a weapon, it sounds very potential. However, this reminds me of the "not all KR are soldiers" thing. Imagine a Soulcaster with a Shardblade. Make yourself a rather simple building of stone, then use the Shardblade to do the final work to reduce the Stormlight cost, like turn the blade into a teeny tiny little knife and use it for detail work or for effortless construction or carving. I feel like the Elsecallers will be less combat based, but more of a whole group based on teleporting in, maybe cutting down an enemy or two(maybe) and then bringing news and supplies behind enemy lines effortlessly.

[Seloun]

Speak for yourself . I'd read the heck out of a book that was Jasnah being competent 24/7 while saving Roshar.

 

This. The funny thing is she probably could have (the power of inspired scholarship); if she hadn't been 'killed', WoR likely would have been about 200 pages long.

[11thorderknight]

Shallan clearly wanted Jasnah to use the soulcaster to save her.  We have no idea if it would work on somebody who was opposed to the soulcasting.

 

Jasnah said that there was something special about soulcasting blood - aside from the fact that creating blood is easier than other complex organic materials, there may be other limitations as well.

 

Jasnah was likely able to touch Shallan to soulcast her blood - not at range like we saw against the muggers.  We've already discussed the enormous Stormlight cost that involved.

 

But the main reason Jasnah isn't going to be able to walk onto a battlefield and murder anybody she lays her eyes on instantly is that it would be a terrible narrative.

 

Jasnah explains to Shallan after she saves her that Soulcasting something into blood is easy, since blood is the pure expression of an Essence - it's easier than water, which is a related "non-oil liquid". It's pretty reasonable to assume that the closer something is to what you want it to become, the less Light it costs. Therefore, Soulcasting "Shallan's blood with trace bits of poison" to "Shallan's blood" would cost almost no Light as all, though it would be difficult because Jasnah has to find the right bead in Shadesmar. That's why she was able to do it with a single, partly dim garnet. On the other hand, changing two people, with their innate investiture, into another essence, at a range, is a lot more demanding, and cracked her smokestone.

 

From a practical standpoint, a Shardblade would have been much, much more efficient at eliminating the robbers - Soulcasting them was strictly for Shallan's benefit, to keep Jasnah's secret.

[Samurai]

There's probably a range to precision ratio involved also the nature of what your changing something into. If I remember right Jasnah changed each of the muggers into one of the ten essence trying to turn blood into air at a range is probably impossible.

[Kevin]

Why worry about changing someones blood to poison. Just change their blood type.

Do you think you could change just the state of mater of something with soulcasting?