Szeth Had an Honorblade...Or Did He? [spoilers]

[Shardlet]

So, as I expect most of you did, I concluded fairly solidly as I read that Szeth held an Honorblade (likely Jezrien's) and that was the source of his surgebinding ability.  There are a number of passages to put that on a pretty strong foundation.  Perhaps most notably, Syl tells Kaladin that she "thinks" that Szeth's former blade is an Honorblade and that it was the source of his abilitries.  And then I read this WoB from the San Diego signing:

 

 

Talenelat: "Can someone bond more than one honorblade?"

Brandon (paraphrased): Honorblade?  You can't bond an honorblade, though it can be given to you.  Shardblades, however, come from a spren bond and it is possible to bond more than one.

source

 

Then I recalled reading where Nalan told Szeth that he had died long enough to break the bond to his blade.  I thought to myself:

 

 

Hmm! So, Szeth had an Honorblade;  He died long enough to break the bond to his blade; But, one cannot be bonded to an Honorblade.  Something ain't quite right here!

 

I have arrived at a few possibilities here:

1) Brandon misunderstood the question and/or mispoke/tricky-spoke.

2) Talenelat misunderstood Brandon's answer.

or 3) Szeth actually did not have an Honorblade and Syl was/is mistaken.

 

While I am leaning towards door number 1) or 2), I find door number three rather compelling.  Here's why:

1) Szeth leaked Stormlight like a sieve.  He needed to consume far more Stormlight than Kaladin.  

2) We never saw Szeth's blade shift to better suit his situation.  

3) So far, we have no indication that the Heralds had shardplate and Szeth indicated that he could not use plate and effectively surgebind (seems pretty obvious that he would suck out all the Stormlight from his gemstones that powered the plate).    

 

For at least those three reasons, it seems that each KR (at least modestly progressed in the ideals) was more powerful than the Herald associated with their order.  Now, could perhaps the proper Herald wield their Honorblade in a more Stormlight efficient manner?  Could they actually have a form of plate which pops in and out fairly instantaneously?  Could Jezrien's Honorblade change shape according to Jezrien's desires/needs while using it?  Sure.  It is quite possible that we simply have not had the opportunity yet to see these things.  But I find it compelling nonetheless.  Even if all these things were in play for the Heralds, is the only functional difference between the Heralds and the KR then the Heralds' funky immortality?

 

Let's hash this out a bit.  Could there still be some life in the idea that Szeth's blade may actually have been the third type?

 

Parting thought, if Szeth's blade is an Honorblade: Could the three types of blades be the Honorblades, the dead KR blades, and the vital KR blades?

Edited March 11, 2014 by Shardlet

[Cromptj]

Maybe, like the KR, the Heralds had to live up to their ideals to fully access their power.

[Galavantes]

My interpretation here was that trying to bond to a honorblade is a lot like a non-Knight trying to bond to a shardblade. They can get some of the functionality out of it (summoning and dismissing) but not the full suite of abilities like morphing its shape or instant summoning. Perhaps you can "partially bond" an honor blade, in that you can get some of its benefits but not all. So you can summon and dismiss it, and you gain some rudimentary surgebinding, but nothing like what the Herald would have received. 

[name_here]

Syl implied eating through stormlight like that was an attribute of Honorblades, though, and Szeth seems to think it's a Honorblade.

 

I think the Honorblades are incredibly draining for their user, but the Heralds are strong enough to withstand the drain and outmuscle their Radiants. Alternately, the lack of safeties preventing use of dangerous amounts of stormlight (dangerous to mortals, maybe) also means they could use any amount of stormlight in a single lashing.

 

Also, it's clearly impossible to bond Honorblades in the same way as live shardblades, because Honorblades do not gain their power from spren.

Edited March 11, 2014 by name_here

[RShara]

Regular Shardblades had to be enhanced in order to be "bonded," that is, able to be summoned and dismissed.  Szeth is able to summon and dismiss his blade.

 

However, Kaladin does not hear screaming when he grabs Szeth's blade after he falls, so it definitely isn't a dead spren.

[Cracknut]

He heard "dead" as well. Misunderstood Spren maybe?

[Shardlet]

I agree that it is most certainly not a dead-spren blade.  I am certainly not implying that Szeth's blade was a regular shardblade.  I also doubt that the Heralds would need to level up like the KR did.  They were chosen by Honor and were thrown into the mix.  The leveling up seems to me be a construct of the Spren.  

 

 

Syl implied eating through stormlight like that was an attribute of Honorblades, though, and Szeth seems to think it's a Honorblade.

 

I think the Honorblades are incredibly draining for their user, but the Heralds are strong enough to withstand the drain and outmuscle their Radiants. Alternately, the lack of safeties preventing use of dangerous amounts of stormlight (dangerous to mortals, maybe) also means they could use any amount of stormlight in a single lashing.

 

Also, it's clearly impossible to bond Honorblades in the same way as live shardblades, because Honorblades do not gain their power from spren.

 

Yes, Syl does think this, but she clearly does not know.  She does not have any experience with the Heralds and Szeth's blade is likely the only Honorblade she has encountered.  

 

Szeth obviously would have been taught/trained that it was an Honorblade and the shamans have shown themselves to be fallible.  So far there has been nothing to indicate that he would have any intrinsic ability to discern whether or not it was an Honorblade beyond what he has been told about Honorblades. 

 

And, seems fairly likely that the bonding would be different.  But, the quote doe not compare bonds it indicates no bonding.  Yet Szeth could clearly summon and dismiss his blade.

[Lugonn]

Just because Szeth can summon it doesn't mean it's bonded.

 

He gives that blade away and it's gone, can't summon it back.

[Daishi5]

We could be looking at multiple types of bonding.  Kaladin, Shallan, and Jasnah are bonded to spren that can turn into their blades.  Deadspren-Shardblades could not be bonded by people until they added gemstones.  I think the bonding may have worked somewhat like the fabrials, bonding the blade to the bearer.

 

And, we have Taravangian and Szeth both identifying that the Stone Shamans are guarding the Honorblades. Syl identifies the blade as an Honorblade.  The Honorblade acts differently when Kaladin holds it compared to the Deadspren-shardblades he has touched.  I think we have reached the "it looks, acts, and quacks like a duck" stage.   

[tigvsben]

I think the "unable to bond" an Honorblade answer relates to the blades being fundamentally tied to the existence of their corresponding Herald.  We were told in the prelude that the death of a Herald would cause their blade to disappear from the world.  Whatever mechanic allows Szeth to summon and dismiss the blade probably doesn't supplant this fundamental bond to Jezrien.

[Zenith]

3) So far, we have no indication that the Heralds had shardplate and Szeth indicated that he could not use plate and effectively surgebind (seems pretty obvious that he would suck out all the Stormlight from his gemstones that powered the plate).

Actually, Shardplate as it currently exists can't be used effectively for Windrunners.

In Adolin's duel, when Kaladin uses a shardplate helmet as a gauntlet, it sucks all his stormlight out.

We also have WoB (I can't remember where from) that all orders of Radiants had access to plate, but not all used it.

 

I'm also thinking that sets of shardplate are not spren, as Kaladin experiences no screams when using the helmet, which makes it unlikely it's a dead spren, and the pedestal from which the oathgates are made are of the same material as sharplate,which leads me to believe that shardplate can be forged somehow, perhaps by one of the radiant orders we don't know much about, or by artifabrians; they have made the half-shards, it's in the realm of possibility they can make plate if they have the materials (maybe they'll discover something in Urithiru (I don't think I spelled that right lol)...)

[Shardlet]

Just because Szeth can summon it doesn't mean it's bonded.

 

He gives that blade away and it's gone, can't summon it back.

 

Except that one of the 10 best authorities on Honorblades and their capabilities tells Szeth that his bond to the blade is now broken.  For it to be broken, it must ipso facto have existed.

 

And, we have Taravangian and Szeth both identifying that the Stone Shamans are guarding the Honorblades. Syl identifies the blade as an Honorblade.  The Honorblade acts differently when Kaladin holds it compared to the Deadspren-shardblades he has touched.  I think we have reached the "it looks, acts, and quacks like a duck" stage.   

 

All of which, save Taravangian, I have mentioned.  Again, I did not say or imply that Szeth's blade was a dead-blade.  It most certainly was not.

 

I agree that they may be multiple kinds of bonding.  Though, it is hard to make a comparison between radiantblades and Honoblades in terms of bondings since we know that the blades are fundamentally different (unless the Heralds have some type of spren analog).

 

I think the "unable to bond" an Honorblade answer relates to the blades being fundamentally tied to the existence of their corresponding Herald.  We were told in the prelude that the death of a Herald would cause their blade to disappear from the world.  Whatever mechanic allows Szeth to summon and dismiss the blade probably doesn't supplant this fundamental bond to Jezrien.

 

Nevertheless, he was bonded to it in some fashion.

 

Note: please recognize that I'm pretty sure that it is an Honorblade as I stated in the OP.  However, I like  to play devil's advocate with responses to ideas like this because I think they deserve a vigorous defense in order to flesh out the idea.  As I said in the OP.  My suspicion is that it was a communication error.  I just find it compelling; especially so in the case of KR abilities v. Herald abilities.  I find it fishy that so far, the Heralds seem to be underpowered as compared to a KR with plate and blade.

 

Edit: @Zenith.  Precisely.  Since the plate that we see in modern Roshar is powered by gemstones, KR could not use it while substantially surgebinding because they would drain the gemstones.  This begs the question, since we know the KR used surgebinding and plate together and we see that current plate and surgebinding are largely incompatible (some surgebinding would be able to be done, but only carefully), how was the plate originally powered?  It can be summoned and dismissed at will much like a KR 's blade.  Seems likely that the Nahel bond or the spren itself played an integral role.  That being the case where does it come from?  If not, then how did the creators of the plate imbue it with power, particularly the ability to summon and dismiss it?  The key thing is that there was no indication of plate in the prelude.  If they had plate, would they not have likewise abandoned it with their blades?

Edited March 11, 2014 by Shardlet

[PudgyNinja]

I think the easiest answer here is that Sanderson changed his mind sometime between giving that answer and writing WoR.  It's happened before, it'll happen again.

 

That or it's simply a different kind of bond than one would make with a dead spren based blade.

[Shardlet]

I think the easiest answer here is that Sanderson changed his mind sometime between giving that answer and writing WoR.  It's happened before, it'll happen again.

 

That or it's simply a different kind of bond than one would make with a dead spren based blade.

 

Couldn't have changed his answer in the way you suggested.  The quote was from last week at one of the WoR signings.

[PudgyNinja]

Actually, Shardplate as it currently exists can't be used effectively for Windrunners.

In Adolin's duel, when Kaladin uses a shardplate helmet as a gauntlet, it sucks all his stormlight out.

We also have WoB (I can't remember where from) that all orders of Radiants had access to plate, but not all used it.

 

I'm also thinking that sets of shardplate are not spren, as Kaladin experiences no screams when using the helmet, which makes it unlikely it's a dead spren, and the pedestal from which the oathgates are made are of the same material as sharplate,which leads me to believe that shardplate can be forged somehow, perhaps by one of the radiant orders we don't know much about, or by artifabrians; they have made the half-shards, it's in the realm of possibility they can make plate if they have the materials (maybe they'll discover something in Urithiru (I don't think I spelled that right lol)...)

 

It's possible to explain away the way the plate sucked down so much of his stormlight.  Full plate might not have had the same effect.  We know that Plate can be regrown from even the smallest piece, as long as it is fed Stormlight (Dalinar mentions that the Parshendi might try to regenerate his Plate from the gauntlet he left behind).  But it must take an enormous amount of stormlight to do so.  Much more than simply repairing a couple segments of cracked plate that you might normally have to deal with.  It's possible that because he was wearing that one piece of damaged armor, in addition to trying to repair itself with Kal's Stormlight, it was also trying to regrow the entire suit.

 

That said, I don't think that Plate works with nahel-bond surges any better than it did with Honorblade surges.  There's no reason to think that they work any differently.

 

As far as Plate not screaming - I also think it's possible that it doesn't scream because it's not bonded the way Blades are.  Bonding it to a human heartbeat forces the spren back to life, sort-of.  Plate as we see it now doesn't have that bond.  

[PudgyNinja]

Couldn't have changed his answer in the way you suggested.  The quote was from last week at one of the WoR signings.

 

My mistake.  

[Zenith]

It's possible to explain away the way the plate sucked down so much of his stormlight.  Full plate might not have had the same effect.  We know that Plate can be regrown from even the smallest piece, as long as it is fed Stormlight (Dalinar mentions that the Parshendi might try to regenerate his Plate from the gauntlet he left behind).  But it must take an enormous amount of stormlight to do so.  Much more than simply repairing a couple segments of cracked plate that you might normally have to deal with.  It's possible that because he was wearing that one piece of damaged armor, in addition to trying to repair itself with Kal's Stormlight, it was also trying to regrow the entire suit.

I'm satisfied with that; question is, what's the mechanism by which plate repairs itself? We know that Shallan could transfer light between gemstones, but had to chose to do so. Does the plate act much in the same way the thing Darkness used on Lift does, and sucks stormlight from the nearest available source, maybe even one that has to be touching? Hmmm....This smells of something I need to ask at a Q/A...

[Shardlet]

That said, I don't think that Plate works with nahel-bond surges any better than it did with Honorblade surges.  There's no reason to think that they work any differently.

 

Except that it used to glow and the KR used surgebinding in their plate (see Starfalls in WoK where the Windrunner obviously is using lashings to arrive at and leave the scene).

[Vortaan]

It could be that an Honorblade's bond is more in line with a nahel bond than a dead-spren Blade bond. It would explain Szeth's ability to Surgebind when not holding the Blade.

[Aloysius]

You're actually onto something. This can't be a mistake on Brandon Sanderson's part because of what we know about how Szeth thinks about him self. Let me explain.

 

The thing is Szeth is labeled Truthless because he had his powers when his people thought that either the final battle was already won and over, or that it wasn't time for the next desecration. He simply wasn't supposed to have those powers but he did.

 

So the definition of Truthless is being an anomaly and having Radiant powers when it shouldn't exist in the world.

 

Now after seeing Kal and hearing KR powers were returning to the world Szeth fled back to his master Taravangian because he was beginning to think he isn't really Truthless. Taravangian then told Szeth that Kaladin was using an Honorblade the KR powers weren't really returning, Szeth was still an anomaly and therefore still Truthless.

 

Now knowing that Szeth knows what an honorblade bestows upon its weilder, we know he hasn't been tricked by means of having an honorblade forced upon him into thinking he is Truthless.

 

This all means that Szeth wouldn't be Truthless if he got his powers from an honorblade.

 

Extra:

This means somehow he has KR:Honor abilities without an Honor Spren. Maybe she is locked in that rock haha. Anyways look forward to him still flying around + wielding Nightblood in the next book.

 

Somehow Kaladin is going to get a power boost/amazing weapon to be on par with Szeth wielding Nightblood.

[garlick]

I think the honorblade is "bonded" when its given to the user. That explains why szeth can summon and dismiss it at will and when nalan says hes been dead long enough to to break the bond.

[kraefzke]

It could just be that they talk about "bondin" in-universe but the WoB tells us that they're using the wrong term.

 

It could also be, that Szeth actually didn't have an honourblade, but the infamous third kind of shardblade (I don't think it's honorblade - live spren shardblade - dead spren shardblade, because technically we didn't see any live spren shardblades in WoK - though I suppose Shallan repeatedly thinking of hers could count; also, on a completely different note: could the third kind be "not Roshar - native shardblade, i.e. Awakened sword??)

 

And why did Dalinar's supposed Honorblade screem? And how could that shardbearer (forgot the name) in the duel hear his Blades screem when Kaladin touched it? I know, getting a little off-topic right now, but I feel this is all connected and didn't want to open another thread for these thoughts.

 

We really need to find out what the three kinds of shardblades are. Maybe if we phrase it like an easy yes/no-question, we won't get RAFO'd: "So, Brandon, when you told us, during an earlier Q&A, that we had seen three kinds of shardblades in WoK, you meant honorblade - live spren shardblade - dead spren shardblade, right?" Someone try!

[Shardlet]

It could just be that they talk about "bondin" in-universe but the WoB tells us that they're using the wrong term.

 

It could also be, that Szeth actually didn't have an honourblade, but the infamous third kind of shardblade (I don't think it's honorblade - live spren shardblade - dead spren shardblade, because technically we didn't see any live spren shardblades in WoK - though I suppose Shallan repeatedly thinking of hers could count; also, on a completely different note: could the third kind be "not Roshar - native shardblade, i.e. Awakened sword??)

 

And why did Dalinar's supposed Honorblade screem? And how could that shardbearer (forgot the name) in the duel hear his Blades screem when Kaladin touched it? I know, getting a little off-topic right now, but I feel this is all connected and didn't want to open another thread for these thoughts.

 

We really need to find out what the three kinds of shardblades are. Maybe if we phrase it like an easy yes/no-question, we won't get RAFO'd: "So, Brandon, when you told us, during an earlier Q&A, that we had seen three kinds of shardblades in WoK, you meant honorblade - live spren shardblade - dead spren shardblade, right?" Someone try!

 

Brandon very well could have been using tricky-speak with his answer.

 

We did see live-spren radiant blades in the Starfalls vision in WoK (the blue and amber KR both had shardblades and these would have been live-spren blades.  As to an awakened sword, Wit is the only person in WoK that could have had one.  In WoR though, we did see Nightblood.

 

Dalinar's blade at the end was not an Honorblade.  If you read the description when he is facing down Amaram and the WoK epilogue description of Taln's blade, you can see that the swords are different.  Add to that the screaming he hears.

 

I agree with your question.  It is a good one to help shed light on this question.

[kraefzke]

Brandon very well could have been using tricky-speak with his answer.

 

We did see live-spren radiant blades in the Starfalls vision in WoK (the blue and amber KR both had shardblades and these would have been live-spren blades.  As to an awakened sword, Wit is the only person in WoK that could have had one.  In WoR though, we did see Nightblood.

 

Dalinar's blade at the end was not an Honorblade.  If you read the description when he is facing down Amaram and the WoK epilogue description of Taln's blade, you can see that the swords are different.  Add to that the screaming he hears.

 

I agree with your question.  It is a good one to help shed light on this question.

 

Oh yeah, your right! Totally forgot about Starfalls!

 

So, Dalinar's Blade there at the end was not Taln's Blade, but he clearly indicated it to be so. Why? Or did I misread/misinterpret/misremember that part? Also, where did that Blade come from? One of the won ones?

[ricree]

The prevailing theory is that hoid swapped it out on the ride to the camps.

Regarding the helmet, I seem to recall Kaladin taking a lot of shardblade hits on it. Probably enough to shatter a normal piece of plate. My understanding is that he was subconsciously feeding it stormlight in order to keep it intact.

It's possible that he could have worked with the plate were he not forced to constantly repair it. Doesn't explain she the radiants used to be able to summon and dismiss plate, though.

Edited March 12, 2014 by ricree