paperhouse Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) I'm putting this here instead of in the normal stormlight area due to the spoiler content. So this is based off of primarily the ars arcanum in the back of the book and information on the wiki page. The only information I am not sure of is Dalinar's Bondsmith Ideal. The wiki has it split in to two ideals but the book gives no indication that they are separate vows besides him using the stormfathers name I tried to set this up more like a relational database, or at least the beginnings of one. This books level of organization lends itself to that detailed of classifications. I took this approach because I assumed that eventually there is going to be more than just 10 surgebinders, with one of each order. Ideally we would set up a separate people table and use the surgebinders table as a supplement to those who can surebind, but I mainly made this for the clarification and cleanliness of information about the 10 orders. I'd like to include the faces of the heralds and the glyphs, but I'm using an excel spreadsheet right now and it doesn't like images. All that being said, this first one is less spoilery PLEASE NOTE: I am basing this on the wikipedia. So for those of you saying that Dalinar only said the second ideal, while I agree the wiki says that was 2 and 3 so that is what I am using here (http://coppermind.net/wiki/Bondsmiths). And this one has loads of WoR spoilers, so you've been warned As always, input/corrections are welcome! Edited March 12, 2014 by paperhouse 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PudgyNinja Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) Nevermind. Edited March 10, 2014 by PudgyNinja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylveris Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Just a minor thing - Jasnah is at least ideal level 3, since she got a shardblade, and as far as I know Dalinar is only 2, not 3. Otherwise looks fine to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galavantes Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 We don't actually know for sure that you have to be "level 3" to get a shardblade. Shallan had hers when she was very young after all. We should hold out on that particular assumption for now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperhouse Posted March 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) i'm not sure the shardblade comes only withthe third ideal for all orders. Shallan has the shard blade before her first or second truth infact she uses pattern-blade in the flashback sequence Also, I have dalinar at 3 because the bondsmith page on the wiki (http://coppermind.net/wiki/Bondsmiths) indicates he said 2 ideals instead of just the one. But I agree that in the book it only seems like one ideal, this caught me off guard. Edited March 11, 2014 by paperhouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylveris Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Good point.... Also, all of this ideal-level thing really doesn't work when you got the truths. Is every truth equal a oath? Does every order as a different amount of oath? etc. I think its stated somewhere by either Syl or Pattern that its really just depends on how the spren in question (or its type of spren) choose it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Like said before, Dalinar probably level 2, Renarin probably level 1, Jasnah probably level 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Good point.... Also, all of this ideal-level thing really doesn't work when you got the truths. Is every truth equal a oath? Does every order as a different amount of oath? etc. I think its stated somewhere by either Syl or Pattern that its really just depends on how the spren in question (or its type of spren) choose it to be. This has been explained in the past. The First Ideal is the same for all ten orders, with four unique Ideals, or in the case of the Lightweavers, truths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Just a note, in the second table you spelled spren wrong. (you wrote spreen) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperhouse Posted March 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 that's embarassing. It's fixed now, however Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafs Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Still says Spreen for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trickonometry Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 This is awesome! Though, I also have a small correction; you have the Skybreaker's second attribute as "Confidant" not "Confident." I'm pretty sure if I told Szeth a guilty secret he would kill me, so... a poor confidant. lol 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1nikhil9 Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Dalinar only spoke the Second Ideal: “Fortunately,” Dalinar said, “I know the second oath I am to make. I don’t need to be told it. I will unite instead of divide, Stormfather. I will bring men together.” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADIMORTIS Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 What about the skybreaker's highspren. I dont remember it being mentioned in the book.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightflame Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Since the Stormfather is the spren of the Bondsmiths, then perhaps the 'Stormfather' part is part of the oath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 I believe that "I will bring men together" is the Second Ideal of the Bondsmiths. For Shallan, we know the First Ideal is the same as the rest, but the Truths that come after are unique to each individual Lightweaver. That makes sense, since they're supposed to be free-spirited Artistes, and all. But, are there still Four Truths beyond the first? If there are, do they need to be spoken after the First Ideal? Because by my count, Shallan has spoken three so far: one when she Soulcast the goblet into blood, one when she showed Jasnah she could enter Shadesmar, and one when she admitted she killed her mother. That would make her level 4. But do they all count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devo Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Shallan is definitely at least level 3. And she was even as a child. Pattern makes numerous references to the fact that when she was very young she was progressing as a Lightweaver and we eventually find out that her mother tried to kill her for it. She already had a shardblade and killed her mother with it because she had already progressed that far as a Knight Radiant. Throughout Words of Radiance she keeps thinking that she needs to learn how to use her powers and Pattern keeps saying she used to know how or that she's already done those things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperhouse Posted March 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 For Dalinar 2/3rd ideal: I am basing this iff if the wikipedia, so while I am personally inclined to agree with the arguement that It is only the second ideal, I am designing this in line wit hthe wiki, thus I have it listed as 3. For the highspren: Words of Radiance: Chapter 59 said She raised her chin high. "I’m no highspren. Laws don’t matter; what’s right matters." This is a quote from Syl. given the divine attribute of just for order two, the inherit relationship of justice and laws, and this quote, it is logical to assume highspren are asociated with order two, the skybreakers. this is verified by the wiki, which I am trying to simplify and present tabularly. For shallan: I classified her as Ideal level 3 because she had the first oath and two subsequent truths. I discount the incident with the goblet because all of her other truths were things she was in denial about, things she did not even remeber. In speaking the truth, she aknowledged that aspect of her past and that is what allowed her to progress. Wit hthe goblet she told them she was afraid. I think that the cryptics intervined in order to begin the process of her bonding/rebonding pattern and that is why they only needed a weak truth, they had no nehal bond. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorin Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Just a minor thing - Jasnah is at least ideal level 3, since she got a shardblade, and as far as I know Dalinar is only 2, not 3. Otherwise looks fine to me! Is it possible that the only reason Kal needed the third ideal for his shardblade is because that the stormfather was "grounding" syl? It's been pretty clear that he didn't want her anywhere near Kal, so he might have been preventing it somehow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavien Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Is it possible that the only reason Kal needed the third ideal for his shardblade is because that the stormfather was "grounding" syl? It's been pretty clear that he didn't want her anywhere near Kal, so he might have been preventing it somehow? Another possibility is that spren don't become shards until they choose to, possibly once they believe their KR has earned it. Kaladin was still very conflicted at the end of WoK so Syl may have just wanted him to wait, the Stormfather told Dalinar it was never going to happen, and Shallan had hers for a moment of extreme need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) Szeth isn't a Skybreaker. Syl specifically said that no spen would ever bond him. He just straight up doesn't have a spren, or even a sharblade. We also never see Nalan's 'skybreakers' infusing, leading me to believe that they are all just skybreaker wannabes. Remember the herals aren't radiants, they don't have a spren bond. The got thier powers from the Honorblades, and now you are trying to tell me that Nalan can just hand out spren willy nilly. Why would he be wanting to make more surgebinders where has been going around KILLING the ones he can find just for existing. I seriously don't get why people keep thinking that szeth is a skybreaker. He isn't a radiant, its quite plainly stated in the book that a spren would never, ever, ever bond him. As in he can't infuse, can't surgebind without the damnation honorblade. Edited March 12, 2014 by Paradox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cris34b Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) Well, it is stated by Syl that one wouldn't bond him. That's her opinion. There's a WoB about how Adolin killed Sadeas, and that even though some orders would never take him in now, others would love what he just did, such as the Skybreakers. So Szeth following his Oaths despite how much he hated it would lend to him being chosen for the law-abiding Skybreakers. Edit:(almost forgot why i started posting) Pattern tells Shallan she has already said all of the Oaths she needs. Either this means she only needs to speak the first ideal and then truths, or that she already spoke several oaths as a child, reaching the level to get a Shardblade, and that the truths are just a way to power different abilities of hers, since her illusions need to be, in a way, truthful lies. Edited March 12, 2014 by cris34b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) law-abiding skybreakers. Are you seriously saying it wasn't against the law for szeth to murder hundreds upon hundreds of people. Many of whome were non-combatants. Remember WoK when he kills almost everybody at a feast. Come on how the **** is that law-abiding in anyway. You said it yourself, Adolin killing Sadeas one of the most corrupted characters in the book, a man who literally cause thousands of deaths, ruled Adolin out of being a skybreaker (WoB here). Now you are trying to say Szeth, a man who has done so much worse than Adolin, can be a skybreaker? I'm sorry you poeple are delusional. Edited March 12, 2014 by Paradox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lDanielHolm Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 law-abiding skybreakers. Are you seriously saying it wasn't against the law for szeth to murder hundreds upon hundreds of people. Many of whome were non-combatants. Remember WoK when he kills almost everybody at a feast. Come on how the **** is that law-abiding in anyway. You said it yourself, Adolin killing Sadeas one of the most corrupted characters in the book, a man who literally cause thousands of deaths, ruled Adolin out of being a skybreaker (WoB here). Now you are trying to say Szeth, a man who has done so much worse than Adolin, can be a skybreaker? You poeple are delusional. He was obeying Shin laws -- being a Truthless. It is the way he clung to being Truthless in spite of everything that makes him appropriate for a Skybreaker, according to Nalan. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Paradox, Settle down. Your posts make it sound like you are personally offended by people suggesting that Szeth is a Skybreaker. But, in answer to your post I would point out that Szeth was following the laws of and directives given to him by his people to the letter in spite of his personal feelings. Remember that intent plays a lot into this stuff. That being said, I see no indication that Szeth has attracted a highspren and has entered into a nahel bond. Until he does, he should not be listed as a KR Skybreaker. The Skybreaker organization that Nalan is leading is by all appearances a vigilante group. The Heralds do not likely have the power to command and direct spren to bond to someone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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