WoR Updated Ars Arcanum(lots of spoilers)

[Moogle]

law-abiding skybreakers. Are you seriously saying it wasn't against the law for szeth to murder hundreds upon hundreds of people.

 

By Shin law, what Szeth did was 'legal'. It was 'sinful' of him, but it was his legally ordered punishment to do it anyways. And he went through with his punishment in a sort of twisted honorableish way.

 

Adolin killing Sadeas one of the most corrupted characters in the book, a man who literally cause thousands of deaths, ruled Adolin out of being a skybreaker (WoB here). Now you are trying to say Szeth, a man who has done so much worse than Adolin, can be a skybreaker?

 

Adolin broke the law as per Alethi law. There is no contradiction here.

 

Szeth isn't a Skybreaker. Syl specifically said that no spen would ever bond him.

 

At that time, yes, I don't think any spren would have bonded with someone so filled with odious feelings.

 

Now, however, Szeth is looking for redemption. He's changed with his rebirth (for one, he does not seem insane after coming back to life). I don't think he's attracted a spren yet, but he very well might. He never wanted to kill, and now he gets to be 'just' and look to punish those that forced him to kill. I do think Szeth could feasibly attract a highspren at some point as he brings justice to those that wronged him. Seems well in line with the Skybreakers.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Moogle

[11thorderknight]

Couple of things in this thread going on.

 

1) Words and Ideals - one of the chapter headings from Words of Radiance (the in-book book) mentions, I think, how this was not the same for all the orders. For the Lightweavers, there are no Oaths beyond the first; each individual has her/his own, personal, Truths that they must speak.

 

2) Shardblade manifestation - For Kaladin, he needed to say the 3rd Ideal, but it was obviously a much more....fluid....process for Shallan. Each order is probably somewhat different in this regard. If what the Stormfather says to Dalinar is true, then Bondsmiths never get shards. This contradicts WoB that all the Radiants had access to them, but maybe since we know now the Bondsmiths were such a tiny order, he didn't include them in his general statement.

 

3) Skybreakers - people are getting confused here. You have to make a distinction between the original Order of Skybreakers (Knights Radiant) and the gang of henchmen/secret society that Nalan is currently organizing. Szeth has been invited to join the latter, and it's possible that in book 3, as his character progresses, he actually draws a spren and truly becomes one of the former. But people have to keep the distinction in mind, otherwise its confusing.

[Devo]

 

 but it was obviously a much more....fluid....process for Shallan.

 

Why assume this? Pattern makes it very clear that she progress far along the path to becoming a Radiant as a child. It's way more likely that Lightweavers have levels the same as Windrunners, but Shallan was already third level when her mother tried to kill her (or became 3rd level then). I found no reason while reading the book to think the process was different for her, she just blocked out all her memories of it.

 

If what the Stormfather says to Dalinar is true, then Bondsmiths never get shards.

 

Not necessarily. They won't get access to shards anymore, but it seems like this is more a product of the fact that the Stormfather is now old, grumpy, and jaded. In the past, he may have been willing to become a sword. Also, maybe each Bondsmith had a particular spren not just one particular spren for all 3. Maybe the Nightwatcher and Cucisesh(sp?) (or some other unique spren) can bond with a bondsmith meaning that each Bondsmith's spren is unique? It would fit with the Bondsmiths having a unique relationship with spren/bonds. Overall we don't actually know that much about Bondsmiths but I think that the Stormfather was making a specific refusal to become a blade, not informing Dalinar of a categorical impossibility.

[PudgyNinja]

 

For Dalinar 2/3rd ideal: I am basing this iff if the wikipedia, so while I am personally inclined to agree with the arguement that It is only the second ideal, I am designing this in line wit hthe wiki, thus I have it listed as 3.

 

If we all, more or less agree that those two statements are part of the second ideal, wouldn't it make more sense to just edit the Wiki to match that instead of editing your table to match the Wiki?

[Devo]

If we all, more or less agree that those two statements are part of the second ideal, wouldn't it make more sense to just edit the Wiki to match that instead of editing your table to match the Wiki?

Hear hear. I threw up in my mouth a little when I saw that on the wiki.

[Awesomeness Summoned he/him]

I agree with the statements above that Szeth isn't joining the KR skybreakers but instead an organization Nalan runs that just goes by that name, so he wouldn't need a spren to join. What no one has mentioned is that there is one "spren" that would be happy with bonding anyone who wants to slay evil, a spren Nalan was able to "give" him in that scene.

[paperhouse]

 

Why assume this? Pattern makes it very clear that she progress far along the path to becoming a Radiant as a child. It's way more likely that Lightweavers have levels the same as Windrunners, but Shallan was already third level when her mother tried to kill her (or became 3rd level then). I found no reason while reading the book to think the process was different for her, she just blocked out all her memories of it.

 

From the chapter 58 epigraph:

"Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain."

 This makes it pretty clear that the lightweavers didn't have specific words for ideals, rather they used truth as a means to gain self awareness. This fits because the ideals for the other orders are a way of defining and dedicating ones self to a specific purpose (like protecting). The lightweavers are considered to be creative/honest, so the ideals as a means to self awareness make far more sense than swearing to understand yourself.

 

 

law-abiding skybreakers. Are you seriously saying it wasn't against the law for szeth to murder hundreds upon hundreds of people. Many of whome were non-combatants. Remember WoK when he kills almost everybody at a feast. Come on how the **** is that law-abiding in anyway. You said it yourself, Adolin killing Sadeas one of the most corrupted characters in the book, a man who literally cause thousands of deaths, ruled Adolin out of being a skybreaker (WoB here). Now you are trying to say Szeth, a man who has done so much worse than Adolin, can be a skybreaker?

 

I'm sorry you poeple are delusional.

Szeth was following the laws of the truthless, whereas adolin broke the law of alethkar. moral equivocation like comparing szeth to adolin has very little with being a skybreaker. actions are judged purely by the law regardless of circumstance.

 

Finally, did szeth join a society or an order? my personal inclination is that he is to become a radiant for a couple of reasons. In dalinar's vision about the midnight essance, the Knight implies that training in Urithiru can help in becoming a radiant (presumably attracting the nehal bond). It seems reasonable that the former leader of an order would be able to encourage such a bond to form, especially with a potential member of his associated order. Second, Szeth is broken because of his sense of justice. Szeth is so commited to following the law as he knows it, he destroys him self and goes almost insane(there were some borderline moments in there). Likely he couldn't develop a nehal bond due to his honorblade (not a known fact, but it seems a reasonable conclusion).

 

Szeth is difficult to present in this format, because I didn't want to leave out information that was stated very explicitly in the book, but he definitely lacks a spren bond. The way I see, Skybreakers as an order definitely exist, and as a secret society may possibly exist, thus when Szeth is allowed to join them, it is much more reasonable to say he joined the order rather than the society. 

[Devo]

From the chapter 58 epigraph:

 This makes it pretty clear that the lightweavers didn't have specific words for ideals, rather they used truth as a means to gain self awareness. This fits because the ideals for the other orders are a way of defining and dedicating ones self to a specific purpose (like protecting). The lightweavers are considered to be creative/honest, so the ideals as a means to self awareness make far more sense than swearing to understand yourself.

Sure they don't swear oaths, but I think they spoke truths to progress to discrete levels the way that other orders spoke oaths to progress to discrete levels. Also we don't know for sure that the truths were personal to each lightweaver. They may have been but it's possible we've never actually seen Shallan speak a truth toward her progression and that the truths are also specific words.

[Shadow Guardian he/him]

Sure they don't swear oaths, but I think they spoke truths to progress to discrete levels the way that other orders spoke oaths to progress to discrete levels. Also we don't know for sure that the truths were personal to each lightweaver. They may have been but it's possible we've never actually seen Shallan speak a truth toward her progression and that the truths are also specific words.

 

They are personal to each individual. At the midnight release, I actually asked Brandon to personalize my copy of WoR with the 2nd ideal of the Lightweavers, if it was revealed in the book, and he told me that the Lightweaver ideals were truths unique to each individual, and they did things a bit differently from the rest of the orders.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Shadow Guardian