Shallan's Mother? [Dont read if you havent finished the book]

[Cayden]

So its fairly clear that Shallans mother wanted to kill Shallan because she feared that she was a surgebinder, and that her father protected her from the aftermath, well he protected her physically and her mental block did the rest. But what occurs to me is that it is likely that her mother was the first one within the household whom was a member of one of the nefarious societies which we seem to be finding out about.

 

There are a few possibilities, though I am very much torn about who she could have been part of. The Ghostbloods seem to have no problems with killing surgebinders, but they dont actively seem to do it unless they would interfere with their plans. The envisegers would not do it unless they were trying to unlock her powers, but still it seems unlikely because they seem to be a very 'pro choice' group. Thaidakar's group (likely wants to return to the Hierocracy) are an option but they seem to want the KR and Heralds to return. Nalan's little group of psychopathic Judge Judy's dont really seem likely either, its possible but I very much doubt that Nalan would not be there himself.

 

So the real question is in my mind who was she with? I think if Nalan knew he would have returned so that really does remove them in my mind.

 

The Ghostbloods could well be the culprits which would seem fitting in some ways, as her father and brother seem to have both ended up in the same organisation. But if they were the culprits, then why didnt her father sell her out? was he truly that loyal to her? was he under external pressure which caused him to crack?

Edited March 8, 2014 by Cayden

[Bremen]

My initial assumption was that Shallan's mother thought she was a voidbinder.

[Tybou_14]

I think her being a ghostblood makes the most sense. At first i discarded the idea because later on her other family members became involved with them (after the mother is killed), but that may not matter too much.  Looking at Mraize it seems to me that ghostbloods will move on quite easily if a member dies. So after she died they just moved on with another family member not wanting to lose progress.  The father was probably more loyal to Shallan than the ghostbloods considering he didn't tell them about her abilities. Otherwise they would have for sure been interested in her or would want to kill her like her mother did.

[Numb]

The wording of that event I think is very important. Shallan says her mother hated her. She didn't say she feared her. Also she said that she is "one of us". If we look at what we know about the Ghostbloods from Teft then if her mother was a Ghostblood it's possible that she was jealous of her for having something that she has tried so hard to achieve. 

 

Her father joined the Ghostbloods but didn't mention anything about Shallan. Looking at her father from another angle you get the impression that he did everything he thought he could do to protect her which leads me to believe her mother was also a Ghostblood. What better way to protect your daughter than to join the very organization you are afraid of.

[Aleksiel]

I think Shallan's mother was just scared of what her daughter was. After all, Shallan possessed powers, unseen from the times of the Radiants, and the only thing worse than a Radiant are Voidbringers according to Vorinism (at least my impression of it). In a very religious society, this easily goes the bad way towards killing the supposed Radiant. So, it's not necessary that Shallan's mother was something more than an overly religious woman, though it's possible that there was more to it that I've missed.    

[AyeJay]

I think Shallan's mother was just scared of what her daughter was. After all, Shallan possessed powers, unseen from the times of the Radiants, and the only thing worse than a Radiant are Voidbringers according to Vorinism (at least my impression of it). In a very religious society, this easily goes the bad way towards killing the supposed Radiant. So, it's not necessary that Shallan's mother was something more than an overly religious woman, though it's possible that there was more to it that I've missed.

Shallan's mother obviously learned her parenting skills from Stephen King.

Edited March 9, 2014 by AyeJay

[Xavien]

 

The people my mother knew...Dreder...never came to our house. Mother loves me.

Shallan speaking to Hoid - hardback page 528

 

So there seems to be some connection to the people her mother knew and her mother's feelings about her.  This Dreder came to the house to help confront her father about Shallan.  So who was he? We never hear anything else about him except he was supposedly her mother's lover.  Noone comes looking for him or seeking vengeance on his behalf.

[AerionBFII]

I don't honestly know. I personally think her mother new full well what she was and sought to kill her to prevent the return of the voidbringers. (Judging by the reaction)

As to her friend no idea? He managed to overcome Shallan's father in a fight so i would guess he was trained in combat but i can't remember if there was a decent description of him but i think if a had to choose between the factions i would probably choose the Diagram faction sisnce they are the ones for saving humanity supposedly. 

 

Ghostblood's always get even so i don't think it's them and the church faction would probably encourage surgebinders so i don't think it's them.

[Xavien]

Odd thought, what if Dreder is the name of a group?

 

"The people my mother knew...Dreder..."

 

It's not plural so she could just be specifying an individual out of all the people her mother knew.  She could also be saying that Dreder was an individual in a group her mother knew and Shallan wishes none of them had come to the house. Remember too that Jasnah had heard of Shallan's mother and that there is a WoB that Shallan's mother was a person of some importance.

[straits]

I don't honestly know. I personally think her mother new full well what she was and sought to kill her to prevent the return of the voidbringers. (Judging by the reaction)

 

 

What strikes me as odd over the course of WoR is the instances of silencing and shunning people who point to symptoms of the return voidbringers, as opposed to being actual causes of the coming troubles. 

[straits]

Odd thought, what if Dreder is the name of a group?

 

"The people my mother knew...Dreder..."

 

It's not plural so she could just be specifying an individual out of all the people her mother knew.  She could also be saying that Dreder was an individual in a group her mother knew and Shallan wishes none of them had come to the house. Remember too that Jasnah had heard of Shallan's mother and that there is a WoB that Shallan's mother was a person of some importance.

 

I'm not really sure what Dreder refers to, but it is only lightly implied and not stated that he was the person accompanying Shallan's mother during the incident. 

 

Shallan mentioned that her mother arrived "with a friend she did not recognize".  Keep in mind that Dreder was mentioned in the flashback, when Shallan met the messenger, which was before the confrontation took place. She could not have known who "Dreder" was other than by word of mouth.

Edited March 9, 2014 by straits

[Eejit]

 Nalan's little group of psychopathic Judge Judy's dont really seem likely either, its possible but I very much doubt that Nalan would not be there himself.

 

 

I don't think that Shadow's absence is necessarily the problem with her being a Skybreaker so much as the fact that Young Shallan is unlikely to have committed sufficient criminal acts to act as a fig-leaf justification for her execution.

[Aengus]

It first I though it must be the ghost bloods but as has been pointed out they are willing to allow surge binders in their organization as shown at the end of the book when Malaize (or however you spell that) says he wants Shallan to join the Ghostbloods in some split personality way. I thinks it must be one of the groups that thinks the best way to stop the void bringers returning is to kill the surge binders. Can we talk about how ridiculous it is to think that killing the only people who can fight the void bringers would be helpful.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Aengus

[Rahhb]

I hadn’t thought of this before, but with Helaran apparently wanting to be a sky breaker (or had become one), is there some possibility he had traced the people his mother was affiliated with?

Yet, why would Jasna know of Shallan’s mother?

And, as was mentioned, why would Shallan have done anything “bad” enough to be executed?

And, why did Shallan’s mother say she was “one of us” and yet hate her at the same time?

[Wreith]

2 hours ago, Rahhb said:

I hadn’t thought of this before, but with Helaran apparently wanting to be a sky breaker (or had become one), is there some possibility he had traced the people his mother was affiliated with?

Yet, why would Jasna know of Shallan’s mother?

And, as was mentioned, why would Shallan have done anything “bad” enough to be executed?

And, why did Shallan’s mother say she was “one of us” and yet hate her at the same time?

This was my guess.

I think Shallan's mom was affiliated with the Skybreakers.

I think Lin joined the Ghostbloods because they had information about the Skybreakers.

I think Helaran joined the Skybreakers because he found out his mother was a member and thought that might have been why Lin killed her (which is Helaran's understanding)

[kari-no-sugata]

I think the simplest solution is that Shallan was being treated as or like a voidbringer and Dreder was a Vorin exorcist.

Only relevant WoBs I can find are as follows:

Quote

Lightflame

When Shallan is appealing Jasnah, Jasnah reveals that she has heard about Shallan's step-mother, Malise Gevelmar. Has Malise Gevelmar ever met Jasnah or one of her associates (excluding Shallan)?

Brandon Sanderson

No, she has not. You'll learn more about Malise in Book Two. She really is just a rural lighteyes of not much consequence. Shallan's mother, however...

 

Quote

Question

We know that Pattern was with Shallan before the murder of Shallan's mother. We will see in the next books how they met?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you will probably see this some day.

 

Quote

Macen

What group, if any, was Shallan's mother a part of?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. But you are right, she was indeed involved.

 

Well, a religious group would still count as a group We'll just have to wait and see...

Edited October 7, 2017 by kari-no-sugata

[thejopen27]

She was a Skybreaker. It's the only thing that makes sense. Not all members had surgebinding. Some seem to have regular, ten-heartbeat droppable shards like Helaran did. Neither shardbearer killed by Arclo the Sleepless drop weapons, therefore Spren bonded blades don't drop when the bearer dies. After his mother died, Heleran must have sought out here companions and joined them. 

[thejopen27]

On 3/12/2014 at 5:51 PM, Aengus said:

It first I though it must be the ghost bloods but as has been pointed out they are willing to allow surge binders in their organization as shown at the end of the book when Malaize (or however you spell that) says he wants Shallan to join the Ghostbloods in some split personality way. I thinks it must be one of the groups that thinks the best way to stop the void bringers returning is to kill the surge binders. Can we talk about how ridiculous it is to think that killing the only people who can fight the void bringers would be helpful.

I think Ishar is lying. He has lied to Nale to help weaken the resistance to Odium.

[Rahhb]

1 hour ago, thejopen27 said:

I think Ishar is lying. He has lied to Nale to help weaken the resistance to Odium.

Wait. What about Ishar?

[FrogKnight]

Or she could be with an Envisager. She noticed Shallan's powers and tried to kill her to push her over the edge to become a Radiant.

[FollowYourMuse]

On 3/9/2014 at 7:31 AM, Numb said:

. Also she said that she is "one of us"

 

9 hours ago, Rahhb said:

And, why did Shallan’s mother say she was “one of us” and yet hate her at the same time?

Shallan's mother did not say one of us.

I agree Shallan Mother was part of something and important, but I am not convinced yet exactly what that is.

Quote

“Why did she try to kill me, Pattern?” Shallan whispered.

“Mmm . . .”

“It started when she found out what I could do.”

She remembered it now. Her mother’s arrival, with a friend Shallan didn’t recognize, to confront her father. Her mother’s shouts, arguing with her father.

Mother calling Shallan one of them.

  WoR chapter 88

 

Edited October 8, 2017 by FollowYourMuse
typos

[Calderis]

We know Heleran sought out the Skybreakers per Mraize. 

We do not know that he joined them. 

Edited October 8, 2017 by Calderis

[thejopen27]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

We know Heleran sought out the Skybreakers per Taravangian. 

We do not know that he joined them. 

That would be a cheap trick by Brandon, the implication is that Taravangian knows he sought them, because he found them.

[Wreith]

Based on what we know, I believe he did in fact find them.

I'm less sure that he actually joined them. I don't see Nale being the type to give a set of shards to someone and then let them get entangled in a border dispute in Alethkar.

Always possible there was more to that fight than we know, though.

[thejopen27]

3 hours ago, Rahhb said:

Wait. What about Ishar?

From the diagram.

"One is almost certainly a traitor to the others."

—Paragraph 27, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer

 

From Edgedancer chapter 9, Edgedancer Spoiler from a post by Dantlee

Quote

Spoiler

I've seen a few comments here and there but thought it would be a good idea to pull them together as a separate discussion topic.

So, it's pretty clear that Ishar was blatantly lying to Nale about being able to stop the desolation by just going around slaughtering surgebinders left and right.

  Hide contents

"But..." said the male initiate. "Is it really ... I mean, shouldn't we want them to return, so we won't be the only order of Knights Radiant?" 
"Unfortunately, no," Darkness said. "I once thought as you, but Ishar made the truth clear to me. If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the oaths. Without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds. That would cause a Desolation... Absolute fidelity to the mission Ishar gave us - the greater law of protecting Roshar - is required."

And a few pages later:

  Reveal hidden contents

It's thus very heavily implied that he has betrayed the heralds, and may have been working for Odium for quite some time. After all, it was at his suggestion that they decided to break the Oathpact in the first place:

  Quote

[Jezrien]: "...A decision has been made. It is time for the Oathpact to end." 
Kalak felt a sharp stab of horror. "What will that do?"
"Ishar believes that so long as there is one of still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations." 

My question is, why? Nale obviously has nearly unshakable trust in Ishar, despite massive amounts of evidence contradicting everything he said. We also know that Ishar was instrumental in the original creation of the Knights Radiant: 

  Quote

"But as for Ishi'elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." - WoR Chapter 42 Epigraph 

 

Edited October 8, 2017 by thejopen27