Shallan's Mother? [Dont read if you havent finished the book]

[thejopen27 he/him]

7 minutes ago, Wreith said:

Based on what we know, I believe he did in fact find them.

I'm less sure that he actually joined them. I don't see Nale being the type to give a set of shards to someone and then let them get entangled in a border dispute in Alethkar.

Always possible there was more to that fight than we know, though.

He wasn't there for the border dispute, he was there to assassinate Amaram, who was part of a group trying to intentionally start a desolation

[Calderis he/him]

14 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

That would be a cheap trick by Brandon, the implication is that Taravangian knows he sought them, because he found them.

Taravangian implied that he might have taught Shallan about surgebinding, which lends credence to the idea that Heleran joined them, but Taravangian doesn't know everything, and Heleran's blade had a gemstone, which is a fairly good indicator that he wasn't actually a surgebinder. 

Mraize is the one who said Heleran sought out the Skybreakers. And he'd be better placed to know, as he actually had interactions with Shallan's family. 

I think that Heleran put the pieces together on who Shallan's mothers friend was and sought them out to try and get answers. I don't think he was trying to join them as much as he attempting to confront the people who caused the circumstances that led to his mother's death. 

[thejopen27 he/him]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Taravangian implied that he might have taught Shallan about surgebinding, which lends credence to the idea that Heleran joined them, but Taravangian doesn't know everything, and Heleran's blade had a gemstone, which is a fairly good indicator that he wasn't actually a surgebinder. 

Mraize is the one who said Heleran sought out the Skybreakers. And he'd be better placed to know, as he actually had interactions with Shallan's family. 

I think that Heleran put the pieces together on who Shallan's mothers friend was and sought them out to try and get answers. I don't think he was trying to join them as much as he attempting to confront the people who caused the circumstances that led to his mother's death. 

I mixed up what Taravangian and Mraize said, but as both think Helaran was in the Skybreakers I think he was. Not all the members of Nale's organization are surgebinders, The old door guard that Lift sees is in uniform as a Skybreaker, but is just a doorgaurd, The man in Azimir threatens Gawx with a knife and Lyft is able to easily run away from most of them. Why would Szeth need Nightblood if Nale expected him to get his own shardblade from a spren. I think somehting odd is happening with the  Skybreakers. I think Nale is cheating somehow, or compelling Highspren to bond. It just seems off somehow. 

Heleran didn't know the circumstances, he blamed his father, not his mother's friend. 

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, thejopen27 said:

Heleran didn't know the circumstances, he blamed his father, not his mother's friend. 

Yes. Because the rumors that were allowed to circulate were that Lin Killed mommy and her lover. 

If there was any reason for Heleran to question this story, and there most likely was plenty of reason, the First thing Heleran would want to do is find out who he was and why he was there. 

Mraize never says he joined the Skybreakers. He asks why he sought them. If he joined them, that question is already answered. 

[thejopen27 he/him]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Yes. Because the rumors that were allowed to circulate were that Lin Killed mommy and her lover. 

If there was any reason for Heleran to question this story, and there most likely was plenty of reason, the First thing Heleran would want to do is find out who he was and why he was there. 

Mraize never says he joined the Skybreakers. He asks why he sought them. If he joined them, that question is already answered. 

You're hearing hooves and think zebras

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

You're hearing hooves and think zebras

No, I'm just not assuming which breed of horse it is. 

[thejopen27 he/him]

Just now, Calderis said:

No, I'm just not assuming which breed of horse it is. 

I think Helaran was a member of the Skybreaker organization, but not a surgebinder. I'm pretty sure he was sent to kill Amaram because Amaram was trying to start a desolation. I'm pretty sure he sought out the group his mother was a part of to get aid against his father. I'm pretty sure Helaran died "knowing" his father killed his mother. Everyone believed Lin kill his wife, no one suspected anything else. It was an open and shut case in their mind. Helaran wanted help not answers, but instead he found a cause to support. 

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, thejopen27 said:

I think Helaran was a member of the Skybreaker organization, but not a surgebinder. I'm pretty sure he was sent to kill Amaram because Amaram was trying to start a desolation. I'm pretty sure he sought out the group his mother was a part of to get aid against his father. I'm pretty sure Helaran died "knowing" his father killed his mother. Everyone believed Lin kill his wife, no one suspected anything else. It was an open and shut case in their mind. Helaran wanted help not answers, but instead he found a cause to support. 

It's a good theory and plausible. I'm not discounting it. It would fit. 

I'm just saying, by the wordings used, no one knows exactly what Heleran did. Taravangian makes some assumptions that we know to be untrue. Mraize doesn't know why Heleran looked for them in the first place. I'm sure we'll find out more. If your right, good on you. I'm just not convinced it's as cut and dry as you think. 

 

[thejopen27 he/him]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It's a good theory and plausible. I'm not discounting it. It would fit. 

I'm just saying, by the wordings used, no one knows exactly what Heleran did. Taravangian makes some assumptions that we know to be untrue. Mraize doesn't know why Heleran looked for them in the first place. I'm sure we'll find out more. If your right, good on you. I'm just not convinced it's as cut and dry as you think. 

 

The Skybreakers just fit to me. They fit for both. They would try to destoy Shallan for bonding a Spren and they would try to assassinate members of the Sons of Honor (who appear to be idiots). That combined with the Ghostbloods associating Helaran with the Skybreakers, and Taravangian thinking Helaran was a surgebinder.

Unrelated, but it's clear that Mraize knows Taravangian is up to somehtng, but has underestimated how crazy, dangerous, and powerful he is.

[Wreith he/him]

Quote

From the diagram.

"One is almost certainly a traitor to the others."

—Paragraph 27, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer

I don't think this applies to the heralds or knights. 

the other two entries on the second desk drawer refer to the Unmade. 

as to the rest of the points, yeah it's pretty obvious something's wrong with Ishar's instructions

Edited October 8, 2017 by Wreith

[The One Who Connects he/him]

11 hours ago, Wreith said:

I don't think this applies to the heralds or knights. 

the other two entries on the second desk drawer refer to the Unmade. 

Be aware that there are twelve paragraphs between the Unmade and the Traitor line. Additionally, he curtails his thoughts on the Unmade and moves towards discussing Kingship. All manner of things could have been discussed in that space, leaving our traitor line without any context.

11 hours ago, Wreith said:

21 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

From the diagram.

From Edgedancer chapter 9, Edgedancer Spoiler from a post by Dantlee

yeah it's pretty obvious something's wrong with Ishar's instructions

The Heralds have all gone some form of insane. Is it so unbelievable that a genius-turned-madman thinks he's always right?

Time on this site has made us jumpy, stretching towards any two points we can connect in the hopes of gaining understanding. Sometimes, a man simply thinks he's right because he believes it, rather than because of some deity feeding him answers.

[Subvisual Haze]

On 3/9/2014 at 0:27 PM, Eejit said:

 

I don't think that Shadow's absence is necessarily the problem with her being a Skybreaker so much as the fact that Young Shallan is unlikely to have committed sufficient criminal acts to act as a fig-leaf justification for her execution.

This coincides with how I read the scenario.  It always struck me as really weird that a spren would bond a child as young as Shallan, but what if that was intentional planning by the Cryptics?  Nale and his Skybreakers seem to operate by finding Surgebinders, then retroactively figuring out a crime the surgebinder committed to justify executing them.  Perhaps Pattern bonded with Shallan as a small child with the assumption that Nale would not have legal justification to kill a surgebinding child, and the bond would have at least some time to develop in relative peace.

My best guess is that the entire Davar family was associated with the Skybreakers (which is more than just the knight order, but like any good secret society has a lot of auxillary agents and informants in various countries).  When Shallan started to demonstrate surgebinding ability, her mother called in a (Skybreaker) friend, as she believed in Nale's vision that Surgebinders needed to be suppressed at all costs to avoid Desolations.  After the confrontation Shallan's bond receded and the Skybreakers lost interest in her, however Helaran followed in his mother's footsteps and sought out the Skybreakers.  Shallan's father ended up associating with the Ghostbloods out of shear enemy-of-my-enemy necessity.