(OB) Most Disliked Stormlight Character

[Steeldancer]

Moash. You had everything you freaking traitor. And then you kill a herald? 

If you come anywhere NEAR MY MAN TALN, I WILL BEAT YOU SO FAR INTO THE COGNITIVE REALM THAT YOU DISASSOCIATE INTO YOUR COMPONENT INVESTITURE.

Also, if anyone hates how Dalinar grew.... that was probably the most moving part of the book for me, because I know how that feels, (not exactly but I can relate). Anyone who overcomes their guilt can relate to this. And it darn well made OB for me. Besides Taln of course. 

[digitalbusker]

18 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

Dalinar is arrogant, power hungry, self righteous, patronizing, a hypocrite, an alcoholic, and a monster.

(emphasis mine)

*sings: One of these things is not like the others....

Look, you do you. You don't have to like Dalinar. But let's not pretend that alcoholism belongs in the same category as the rest of those character flaws.

[Toaster Retribution]

@Ymawgat I think we are supposed to like Venli for the same reason as we like Dalinar. She is trying to change and become better. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by Toaster Retribution

[wotbibliophile]

I can't decide what kind of thread this is. Are we just supposed to vote and leave it or . . .

Well I'm going to respond. I do acknowledge Dalinar has changed and I do not forgive him. It takes a lot for me to forgive a fictional character I never liked in the first place.

1. Genuine change (which I can agree Dalinar has genuinely changed)

2. Atonement.

Dalinar has not atoned and I doubt he ever will. I think he would have to sacrifice something for me to think he has atoned. He was the de facto king of Alethkar despite promising never to be king and now he is the king of Urithiru. He is literally on top of the world. He has lost nothing? little? He feels remorse but he is still the most powerful man in the world. I think he should pay for his crimes. And I think he never will. Feeling remorse does not count as paying for his crimes. I mean for me it does not count.

[Rainier]

On 1/12/2018 at 2:55 PM, wotbibliophile said:

I think he should pay for his crimes. And I think he never will.

See he can atone and pay for his crimes, or he can unite humanity and save them from Odium, but I don't think he can do both.

Spoiler

Does Lews Therin atone for his crimes of madness? No, he bails and makes a mountain out of his grief.

As for me, I frankly can't stand the chessy characters: Lift and Lopen. I audibly groan when they get screentime to themselves and I really can't stand reading about either one. Both seem like cheap comic relief.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Rainier

[Toaster Retribution]

@wotbibliophile Dalinar has atoned. He suffered immensely from what he did on a psychological level. He became a wreck. He has since then dedicated his life to saving as many humans as possible. He walked out to face Odium and Nergaoul, and he did it for mankind. Atonement doesn't necessarily mean that he should give up everything his sins gave him, especially since his worst sin (Rathalas) has next to nothing to do with his current status in the world. What would Dalinar have to do in order for you to forgive him?

[Ymawgat]

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I think we are supposed to like Venli for the same reason as we like Dalinar. She is trying to change and become better. 

Sure, but that in and of itself doesn't make me like her.

If we had had four Evi PoV chapters that showed us that she would be an absolutely amazing bondsmith/how cool she was firsthand, that Dalinar was 100% planning to kill her - purely for his own ambition and greed, and that Dalinar only tried to become a good person when he knew for certain that atonement was actually possible (and that he'd get a nahel bond out of it)....

.....then I don't think I'd like Dalinar much either.

[Greywatch]

Venli didn't know for sure she'd get a nahel bond and be "safe" in atonement; she's taking on great personal risk accepting Timbre. Venli also wasn't planning to kill Eshonai; she was wrong about the effects of stormform, and regretted it. She was genuinely upset when they found Eshonai's body. That's just... not accurate to what Venli's story arc.

 

Speaking more broadly, I don't find it helpful to think about it in terms of "they deserve to be redeemed" or "they don't deserve it". People make choices, and sometimes people do awful things and choose to keep doing awful things... And sometimes people do awful things and decide to change their behaviour. To me, the stories of people recognizing that they were wrong and deciding to make themselves better are really compelling. OB was when I decided Dalinar was my favourite, honestly.

[Ymawgat]

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Speaking more broadly, I don't find it helpful to think about it in terms of "they deserve to be redeemed" or "they don't deserve it". People make choices, and sometimes people do awful things and choose to keep doing awful things... And sometimes people do awful things and decide to change their behaviour. To me, the stories of people recognizing that they were wrong and deciding to make themselves better are really compelling. OB was when I decided Dalinar was my favourite, honestly.

Ok I'm gonna answer this first because I think it's more relevant to my comment:

I'm not saying Venli doesn't "deserve" to be redeemed. What I'm saying is that if the fact that she's alive and has a nahel bond narratively requires that Eshonai has to be dead, then I hate her for that. It's not about morality, it's simply the fact that I greatly prefer Eshonai over Venli, and that if Venli can hurt her sister and then move on to the a road to recovery of recovery and redemption, while Eshonai remains dead (on top of having being mind controlled for the last weeks of her life), then I can't help but at least strongly dislike Venli, regardless of how morally good and remorseful Venli currently is.

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

she was wrong about the effects of stormform, and regretted it.

Words of Radiance, Eshonai's third chapter, 5 pages in (I don't know the exact page number on all copies, but in my copy that is split between two parts it's on page 138):

Quote

Eshonai found herself attuning the new version of Amusement ... Ridicule, it was. She turned to her sister.

"You knew didn't you? You knew exactly what this form would do to me. You knew before you took the form yourself."

"I ... Yes."

 

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Venli didn't know for sure she'd get a nahel bond and be "safe" in atonement

The reason I say that is that she only tried to be a good person after meeting Timbre, and after seeing Dalinar's redemption arc: she doesn't become a good person purely because it's the right thing to do and for someone else, she does it specifically to seek redemption. It's is still admirable, but it fundamentally isn't the same thing as what Dalinar did, at least in my opinion.

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

she's taking on great personal risk accepting Timbre. Venli also wasn't planning to kill Eshonai;

Ok yeah sorry I misremembered the text. But this doesn't really change that I would much rather just have Eshonai back, and the fact that we're meant to be happy with Venli just, inheriting her story, especially in a book series that is ultimately about recovery and optimism, makes me super pissed off.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Ymawgat
deleted repeat words

[Greywatch]

We see in all of OB's scenes that Venli was indeed mistaken about what was going to happen with stormform, and how deeply and irrevocably it would change her sister and her people. Though she can't undo the damage, she starts doing what she can. And of course, you don't have to love her. But she was mistaken about what would happen, she does regret it, she does want to change, and she does start taking steps to do so. Timbre thinks she's as worthy as Eshonai, and she's not stealing Eshonai's arc; she's getting an arc of her own, with different themes and different deeds and efforts for her to try and achieve.

[Ymawgat]

40 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

We see in all of OB's scenes that Venli was indeed mistaken about what was going to happen with stormform, and how deeply and irrevocably it would change her sister and her people.

I've already provided a quote that proves Venli knew what Stormform would do to Eshonai specifically. If you think there is evidence in OB that disproves this then please share I guess?

40 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Though she can't undo the damage, she starts doing what she can. And of course, you don't have to love her. But she was mistaken about what would happen, she does regret it, she does want to change, and she does start taking steps to do so.

Again, like, I don't hate her for her actions, I hate her because Brandon Sanderson wants me to be ok with her replacing Eshonai.

The reason I point to the crazy bad stuff she's done is that I don't understand why when Amaram and Sadeas hurt Kaladin, he gets a recovery arc and they die, whilst when Venli's actions hurt Eshonai (even if you won't accept that Venli knowingly hurt Eshonai, you have to concede she risked the destruction of her people for her own ambition), Eshonai dies meaninglessly and Venli gets a redemption arc. That doesn't make sense to me. I don't see how that's meant to be a compelling story.

40 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Timbre thinks she's as worthy as Eshonai, and she's not stealing Eshonai's arc; she's getting an arc of her own, with different themes and different deeds and efforts for her to try and achieve.

Ok but here's the thing: Venli is stealing Eshonai's arc big time.

The sequence used to go Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Eshonai, Szeth, but now goes Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Eshonai/Venli, Szeth. The only narrative justification for Eshonai's death is so that Venli can become a radiant.

I agree that Venli isn't "stealing" anything from Eshonai in the fiction of the books/in universe, but she super is stealing Eshonai's role and story from a narrative perspective: Eshonai is now dead and isn't going to ever have her own radiant arc, and directly because of this Venli gets radiant and redemption arcs. It's dumb and I fundamentally can't see the point of writing that.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Ymawgat
changed "rust" to "stuff", forgot i couldn't swear here :/

[Greywatch]

19 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

I've already provided a quote that proves Venli knew what Stormform would do to Eshonai specifically. If you think there is evidence in OB that disproves this then please share I guess?

Again, like, I don't hate her for her actions, I hate her because Brandon Sanderson wants me to be ok with her replacing Eshonai.

The reason I point to the crazy bad stuff she's done is that I don't understand why when Amaram and Sadeas hurt Kaladin, he gets a recovery arc and they die, whilst when Venli's actions hurt Eshonai (even if you won't accept that Venli knowingly hurt Eshonai, you have to concede she risked the destruction of her people for her own ambition), Eshonai dies meaninglessly and Venli gets a redemption arc. That doesn't make sense to me. I don't see how that's meant to be a compelling story.

Ok but here's the thing: Venli is stealing Eshonai's arc big time.

The sequence used to go Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Eshonai, Szeth, but now goes Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Eshonai/Venli, Szeth. The only narrative justification for Eshonai's death is so that Venli can become a radiant.

I agree that Venli isn't "stealing" anything from Eshonai in the fiction of the books/in universe, but she super is stealing Eshonai's role and story from a narrative perspective: Eshonai is now dead and isn't going to ever have her own radiant arc, and directly because of this Venli gets radiant and redemption arcs. It's dumb and I fundamentally can't see the point of writing that.

Just read her scenes again. That's all it is. Her entire store in OB is her realizing that she's not okay with what's happening, that it's not really what she wanted. We're in the post-WoR story now, when Venli actually sees the result of her actions in WoR. 

That only makes sense if you assume that killing Eshonai and having Venli was a last-minute change. There's no evidence to suggest this, no evidence to suggest that Eshonai wasn't going to die right from the beginning. She's not stealing anything. Venli is getting what she was always going to get.

[Obnoxiousspren]

For me, I don't cast my vote based on who I would hate in real life, because obviously those would be any of the bad guys. However, every good story needs some awesome villains and I think the villains in Stormlight are diverse and terrifying. I love Taravangian's inner conflict and twisted morals, Moash's tragic betrayal, Sadeas' cunning schemes, and Amaram's twisted sense of justification. It makes for a great story.

Shallan is fascinating to me because of how accurately her psychological trauma is portrayed (I'm a psychology major). Sure she isn't the most fun to read about, and I could maybe do with a little less of her, but I like having her in the story.

Alright, after thinking about it awhile, the Stormfather is probably my least favorite at the moment. Granted, he might be more of a force than a person, but still. I just hate it when some body withholds very important information because they are stubborn. I feel like the Stormfather knows a ton of information that he won't reveal THAT I REALLY WANT TO KNOW.

Edit: As for Szeth, I actually really like him. He is a very tragic character that got caught up in a blind obedience that has always persisted in humans. Now he is trying to find redemption by doing what he can. Also, him and Nightblood are freakin terrifying, which I love.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Obnoxiousspren
Added some thoughts

[Ymawgat]

9 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Just read her scenes again. That's all it is. Her entire store in OB is her realizing that she's not okay with what's happening, that it's not really what she wanted. We're in the post-WoR story now, when Venli actually sees the result of her actions in WoR

Again, how Venli feels isn't relevant to my complaints. Please reread my last comment in regards to this.

9 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

That only makes sense if you assume that killing Eshonai and having Venli was a last-minute change. There's no evidence to suggest this, no evidence to suggest that Eshonai wasn't going to die right from the beginning. She's not stealing anything. Venli is getting what she was always going to get.

1. Writing that isn't compelling or interesting doesn't suddenly become compelling/interesting when I take the view that it was always going to be written like that.
2. This isn't evidence per say, but Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar's arcs set up the implication that the series (like I said earlier) is about recovery and hope/optimism. When the same story isn't offered to another character who's depicted as being as important as them (has pov's, will have flashback book) I have every right to be disappointed.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Ymawgat

[Greywatch]

Just now, Ymawgat said:

1. Writing that isn't compelling or interesting doesn't suddenly become compelling/interesting when I take the view that it was always going to be written like that.
2. This isn't evidence per say, but Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar's arcs set up the implication that the series (like I said earlier) is about recovery and hope/optimism. When the same story isn't offered to another character who's depicted as being as important as them (has pov's, will have flashback book) I have every right to be disappointed.

I didn't say it was going to be more compelling for you; I did say it's wrong to think of it as Venli stealing something from Eshonai.

On the contrary, I think Venli has some interesting parallels with Dalinar in terms of someone who's done some very bad stuff and learning to change and do what you can to grow past it. Eshonai could have had good comparisons, also, but it's also wrong to say that Venli automatically doesn't fit in there. Hope and optimism in the face of having done something terrible and trying to make up for it fit right in. 

Eshonai might not even be the only one to be dead by the time their flashback book comes around.

Eshonai also only had interlude chapters in WoR, and the intro (flashback) chapter in OB. Venli only has interlude chapters in OB. 

As I said before, you don't have to love, or even care for Venli. You can be disappointed. I'm just defending Venli from stuff that is not true.

[Ymawgat]

33 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I'm just defending Venli from stuff that is not true.

Ok sorry then.

I still can't see the point of Venli's arc if Eshonai isn't coming back, but like you said, re-reading Oathbringer my help give perspective.

[Toaster Retribution]

10 hours ago, Ymawgat said:

If we had had four Evi PoV chapters that showed us that she would be an absolutely amazing bondsmith/how cool she was firsthand, that Dalinar was 100% planning to kill her - purely for his own ambition and greed, and that Dalinar only tried to become a good person when he knew for certain that atonement was actually possible (and that he'd get a nahel bond out of it)....

If I recall correctly, Venli never wanted to kill Eshonai. She is in fact very sad when she finds Eshonais corpse. Furthermore, Venli tries to be a good person because she realizes that serving Odium was a bad idea, partially because the Listeners are used as cannon fodder, and partially because she didn't get the power she was after. I don't think she realized that a Nahel Bond was possible until very late in OB, sonI doubt that was a factor.

The Parshendi characters are least interesting to me in the story though, so I might be misremembering Venlis motivations.

[Ymawgat]

4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

If I recall correctly, Venli never wanted to kill Eshonai. She is in fact very sad when she finds Eshonais corpse. Furthermore, Venli tries to be a good person because she realizes that serving Odium was a bad idea, partially because the Listeners are used as cannon fodder, and partially because she didn't get the power she was after. I don't think she realized that a Nahel Bond was possible until very late in OB, sonI doubt that was a factor.

The Parshendi characters are least interesting to me in the story though, so I might be misremembering Venlis motivations.

Yeah I conceded some of these points earlier. I highly recommend you look through the rest of the thread.

My problem isn't with Venli's motivations though, it's with the fact that we're supposed to be ok with her replacing Eshonai when Brandon would never have replaced Kaladin with a conveniently remorseful Amaram.

[Toaster Retribution]

@Ymawgat I apologize for missing you above posts. You did address some of the same points I did. My bad. I now get what your problem is, and I feel that I am the wrong person to have an in-depth discussion of Eshonai vs Venli. As I said, I am not very interested in either one, but I can see why you would be disappointed in how the story turned out if you like Eshonai a lot (which I guess you do). I am a bit disappointed in how Amaram, a favorite of mine, turned out in OB, and I thus respect those disappointed by other characters in OB.

[Ymawgat]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I apologize for missing you above posts. You did address some of the same points I did. My bad. I now get what your problem is, and I feel that I am the wrong person to have an in-depth discussion of Eshonai vs Venli. As I said, I am not very interested in either one, but I can see why you would be disappointed in how the story turned out if you like Eshonai a lot (which I guess you do). I am a bit disappointed in how Amaram, a favorite of mine, turned out in OB, and I thus respect those disappointed by other characters in OB.

Thanks! Yeah I can how Amaram's characterisation in OB could be frustrating.

[bluesungfruit]

I don't mind Moash most of the time. Seems like the kind of path any number of us might take given the right circumstances. As on this planet, humans on Roshar really are pretty detestable, so siding with another species, assuming they can only be an improvement, is understandable. His killing of Jezrien is unfortunate though. I'm assuming that he'll see just how messed up the Fused really are, how bad it was to kill a Herald, and repent, and save someone important opportunely at some point.

I'm not sure about Shallan. I loved her in the first book: Sanderson's descriptions of doing art are quite powerful, very resonant. And I love the whole Lightweaver gig -- before reading the books, based on the 'weaving' of the Wheel of Time series, I almost took the name 'Lightweaver' as my moniker (but it was taken, everywhere online, so took a random one instead). Now, in the last book... I sort of understand that she's got some kind of dissociative identity disorder, and that must be tough, but... honestly I just don't find her very interesting any longer.

Maybe it's an effect of the way they're read in the audiobooks, but I love Lift, and really couldn't stand Elhokar. Absolutely stunned that he doesn't have more votes. Thank you, Moash, for that one!

Edited January 13, 2018 by bluesungfruit

[WhiteLeeopard]

Venli knew perfectly well what the stormform and the Everstorm were going to bring. She simply made wrong assumptions about what else would happen afterwards. She assumed humans would be destroyed/enslaved, Listeners would be saved, and she would be worshipped as their savior and made their Queen. Unfortunately what happened was a larger scale war started, Listeners were systematically destroyed by the Fused who were meant to save them, and she was turned into a puppet and a servant. 

Am I okay with her taking Eshonai's place? Not really, but I guess Eshonai was too ideal a Willshaper, so we get a rougher one, less suited for the order to get a clearer view of them. Before OB I would have been deeply unhappy (angry) at the idea of Venli been the Parsh savior, because she didn't deserve to save them after destroying the Listeners, and because the parsh deserved a better leader. However I got a bit of interest in Venli during OB.

Basically she achieved everything she wanted...and then she saw that getting all she wanted meant all her dreams and all that was important in her world turning to ash. That is interesting in the sense that you get a good sense of who a person is after they gain all they hoped for...to see it become the bitterest of defeats. Venli didn't crumble, or go the easy road of becoming an arche-typical villain by hurting others to feel better herself. So she gained a smidge of my respect with her actions after she was at the bottom of the chasm. Where she goes from there, we will see.

[Ymawgat]

21 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Am I okay with her taking Eshonai's place? Not really, but I guess Eshonai was too ideal a Willshaper, so we get a rougher one, less suited for the order to get a clearer view of them.

Ok so I agree with a lot of what your saying in that post, and it's nice to see another view on Venli I hadn't read before, but I don't really get this argument because like, couldn't the exact same argument be levelled at Kaladin?

He's an incredibly "ideal" Windrunner, and his main too flaws (so far) are:

A: his hatred of the lighteyes, which is ultimately a pretty reasonable reaction to all the stuff that's been done to him, and is something he's overcoming.

B: he literally cares too much. his problems with the fourth ideal stem from him not being able to protect everyone, like you can and should look at this in a lot of different ways but like at the end of the day Brandon decided to write that one of his biggest problems was an excess of compassion.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Ymawgat
deleted unnecessary line

[Kasimir]

One interesting point where Moash is concerned is that it takes serious work to be so hated by the fanbase to the extent that there's an entire subreddit dedicated (just like the Cult of the Stick) to two Words:

"RUST MOASH"

The last I checked, they had over three pages full of threads, all of which were about "RUST MOASH". That's...serious dedication, right there.

[StormblessDave]

1) Moash, for obvious reasons

2)Shallan, no more POVs pls(or at least reduce the number of them)

Of course, it's the Stick, how could I forget?!!

Edited January 15, 2018 by StormblessDave