(OB) Most Disliked Stormlight Character

[Justi]

15 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Mraize has slippers when he meets Ash in Oathbringer. I have been fascinated by this ever since. 

And you are my favorite arcanist/God Beyond! We are friends!

SA is so much more than just the Kholins and Shallan. Moash/Kaladin, the war in Alethkar, Cosmere lore, Ishar on the rise, Nale on Team Odium, the Singers revolution, Mraize and his shady stuff, more Radiants, more Unmade, Vivenna and Vasher, the Sibling, Taravangian playing all sides, Cultivation and Hoid meddling, the Heralds trying to survive, Axies & Rysn, Anaram as a Cognitive Shadow (ok, probably not, but I can hope). Thing is, even if I was displeased with the Kholins and Shallan, which Im really not, I would have had tons of cool things to look forward too.

Imagine waiting Harry Potter book like that: Being curious about house elf Dobby or Molly Weasley’s clock or Sorting Hat  I think this is the difference between “real fan” or “random reader”. I lost the plot in this series and lost almost all of the main arcs. I can’t concentrate anything now. 

[Aon Tia]

5 minutes ago, Justi said:

Imagine waiting Harry Potter book like that: Being curious about house elf Dobby or Molly Weasley’s clock or Sorting Hat  I think this is the difference between “real fan” or “random reader”. I lost the plot in this series and lost almost all of the main arcs. I can’t concentrate anything now. 

Hate shallan if it helps.. I think you can still read chapters of a character that you hate.. but focus on the information on these chapters and not on shallan drama..

[Winds Alight]

19 minutes ago, Justi said:

Imagine waiting Harry Potter book like that: Being curious about house elf Dobby or Molly Weasley’s clock or Sorting Hat  I think this is the difference between “real fan” or “random reader”. I lost the plot in this series and lost almost all of the main arcs. I can’t concentrate anything now. 

Well, if the series contains so little that you like, you are always free to not continue reading. There are a lot of books I dropped or series I left after the first book or two. Some of them I found badly written, some of them just weren't my cup of tea. No shame in that.

[Justi]

10 hours ago, The traveller said:

I will have to completely disagree here with you.. I think if an author is able write about such conflicting characters that they are polarising, such as shallan or Dalinar or Moash, then that i see as a sign of good writing. It means that character portrayal is more realistic rather than the fairy tale version of a perfect damsel in distress. Irl often there are people that some like and others absolutely dislike. The very fact that shallan makes you hate her so much, that she insights such strong reaction from you,  I think, should be considered as a sign of clever writing and not PR machinery at work.  
 

what is it about shallan that irritates you so much that you would tear your copy of oathbringer?

shallan started in book 1 and I fairly liked her there. She was making mistakes huge ones, but she is supposed to. She has left her home for the first time and is supposed to be ignorant of things and bad judge of people. 
book 2 in fact she is quite likeable. I admired all the strength that she found, authority she mustered and her conversion of vathah and his gang is actually very impressive. From there on, she has done great job actually throughout including saving everyone and finding urithiru. 
I think her problems start only after she confesses the truth about her mother and from there she spirals down in OB. What I dislike reading about in her povs is actually all the Veil stuff. I find veil to be too superficial and her nighttime wonderings learning to drink alcohol and trying to be a spy are just... but whenever shallan is bring her own self I actually like those chapters better. 

If Shallan’s writing was good there should have been endless discussion about her motives and her choices and her story arc. This is what we call good writing. You can write most hated character easily. This doesn’t mean anything. And Sanderson changed her plot for every other book. She was the girl who had to do bad things for her Family to girl who is betrothed to Prince and changed again in 3rd book. You don’t know what Sanderson will come with 4th book. What bad for me is she is constantly killing or stealing stories of Renarin,Adolin, Kaladin, Jasnah and others. This is bad writing.  And it doesn’t mean when I say I hate Shallan I would like to see damsel in distress instead of her. I found this belief offensive. And Shallan’s way of solving problem (marriage) very lame. I would have call her damsel in distress for this but even they are better. 

[Winds Alight]

2 minutes ago, Justi said:

If Shallan’s writing was good there should have been endless discussion about her motives and her choices and her story arc. This is what we call good writing. You can write most hated character easily. This doesn’t mean anything. And Sanderson changed her plot for every other book. She was the girl who had to do bad things for her Family to girl who is betrothed to Prince and changed again in 3rd book. You don’t know what Sanderson will come with 4th book. What bad for me is she is constantly killing or stealing stories of Renarin,Adolin, Kaladin, Jasnah and others. This is bad writing.  And it doesn’t mean when I say I hate Shallan I would like to see damsel in distress instead of her. I found this belief offensive. And Shallan’s way of solving problem (marriage) very lame. I would have call her damsel in distress for this but even they are better. 

By this argument, Kaladin's plot changing from slave who tries to save a few people to revenge-seeking soldier to leader and conflicted soldier from Wok to OB would be bad writing as well. As the story develops, the characters and their role in said story will also develop and change.

Also I would really like to know what exactly you think has been "stolen" from anyone?

[Aon Tia]

22 minutes ago, Justi said:

And it doesn’t mean when I say I hate Shallan I would like to see damsel in distress instead of her. I found this belief offensive. And Shallan’s way of solving problem (marriage) very lame. I would have call her damsel in distress for this but even they are better. 

I was not trying to say that you want to read about damsel in distress.. what I was saying is that Brandon is writing about complicated characters that feel more realistic to me instead of relying on time tested tropes like damsel in distress or warrior hero or noble general or beautiful princess.. 

I don’t think that there is any abrupt change in her arc from book2 to 3, I think it was always headed in this direction. He is also trying to show that becoming a radiant and gaining surges, does not always solve all problems that a person has. In fact, sometimes powers may exacerbate them like in case of shallan. Her ability to create illusions and different personas added to her habit of pushing problems and troubled memories to the back of her mind has led to a multiple personality disorder. It was not there initially but her surges have exacerbated her psychological problems.. I actually find all this very interesting to read.. I think it was a nice direction that he has taken it in.

Edited November 16, 2019 by The traveller

[Justi]

19 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

By this argument, Kaladin's plot changing from slave who tries to save a few people to revenge-seeking soldier to leader and conflicted soldier from Wok to OB would be bad writing as well. As the story develops, the characters and their role in said story will also develop and change.

Also I would really like to know what exactly you think has been "stolen" from anyone?

I’m talking about something different than changing character’s title or job. Kaladin’s plot is still same as Sanderson presented. Those changes are part of his plot. Didn’t you predicted those things? 

“Radiant who have some sort of disorder” was Renarin’s story. Sanderson tried to make Shallan “likeable” so he gave Renarin’s story to Shallan. Renarin completely overshadowed now. 

25 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

Well, if the series contains so little that you like, you are always free to not continue reading. There are a lot of books I dropped or series I left after the first book or two. Some of them I found badly written, some of them just weren't my cup of tea. No shame in that.

I’m going to do that and I’m not going to read 4th book. I just want to write my opinion before I go because I really liked Kholin clan and Kaladin. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Justi

[Winds Alight]

9 minutes ago, Justi said:

“Radiant who have some sort of disorder” was Renarin’s story. Sanderson tried to make Shallan “likeable” so he gave Renarin’s story to Shallan. Renarin completely overshadowed now.

That is not their story, it is part of their characterization. It's the case for Shallan, Kaladin and Renarin, also Dalinar and likely a lot of other Radiants.

Shallan has a kind of dissociative personality disorder (I think that's what it's called) as part of major PTSD.
Kaladin has depression/seasonal affective disorder that have been negatively affected through the major trauma he went through, but they were there before, ever since he was a kid.
Renarin is autistic, and has been so since he was born, because people don't become autistic, they either are, or they aren't. I also believe that autism is not classified as a mental illness like the first two are.

Renarin is not overshadowed, he simply isn't a major character yet. He will be. It's only natural that he has much less screentime now than Shallan has.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Winds Alight

[Aon Tia]

2 minutes ago, Justi said:

Radiant who have some sort of disorder” was Renarin’s story. Sanderson tried to make Shallan “likeable” so he gave Renarin’s story to Shallan. Renarin completely overshadowed now. 

You are wrong here. All the radiants have problems, many have psychological disorders. It was not only supposed to be about Renarin. Kaladin has depression, shallan - multiple personality disorder, teft - addiction, dalinar has post traumatic stress disorder, alcoholism, addiction and amnesia, Jasnah has something too.. lift also must have gone through something terrible to want to ask from NW to not let her grow.. she wants to remain a kid.. 

Autism has not been replaced by multiple personality disorder. Renarin is going to be more prominent in books 6-10. It was also meant to be like this. 

[Justi]

Do you really think Renarin’s story in the 6-10 books will be special? His everyday struggles, his bond with his spren, his situation in the family (he is the person everyone tried to protect) and even his possible healing will not be special because Sanderson will write everything to Shallan by the time of 6th book. He already wrote some of it. Oh I’m sure Sanderson will bring “special new unimportant something(!)“ for him since he had do but those things are far far away from the plot and I expect effect will be like “new house elf coming to the Hogwarts for Parvati Patil. “ (I have nothing against house elfs btw just to point small things are not real ”story arc”)

Edited November 16, 2019 by Justi

[Jaywalk]

4 minutes ago, Justi said:

Do you really think Renarin’s story in the 6-10 books will be special? His everyday struggles, his bond with his spren, his situation in the family (he is the person everyone tried to protect) and even his possible healing will not be special because Sanderson will write everything to Shallan by the time of 6th book. He already wrote some of it. Oh I’m sure Sanderson will bring “special new unimportant something(!)“ for him since he had do but those things are far far away from the plot and I expect effect will be like “new house elf coming to the Hogwarts for Parvati Patil. “ (I have nothing against house elfs btw just to point small things are not real ”story arc”)

I’m honestly not sure why you’re still here. You’re consistently arguing in the hopes of converting devout Sanderfans to placing him in the same negative light you do. And you’re not using logic to do it, you’re attacking other people’s simple opinions because they don’t match up with their own. Did you just make an account on a fansite to complain?

And to answer your question, I personally do think Renarin’s story will be special. He has a connection to Odium’s side through Glys that most other characters don’t—Shallan certainly doesn’t, whom you claim will steal all of Renarin’s originality. He’s an intermediary of sorts, though he leans much more towards the Radiant side. We won’t simply be seeing his “everyday struggles” when he becomes a main character in the back 5. I have no doubt he will play a very important role in the story, and until then, he doesn’t need to. We don’t see a whole lot of Renarin, but he’s very distinct from the other characters.

Finally, every person’s struggle with mental illness is different. Shallan and Renarin also have distinct illnesses from one another; Shallan has PTSD, and Renarin is on the autism spectrum.

I, for one, trust Sanderson to write an excellent story with him.

[Winds Alight]

24 minutes ago, Justi said:

Do you really think Renarin’s story in the 6-10 books will be special?

Absolutely I do.

I don't even get why you believe their storylines are so similar at all.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Winds Alight

[Greywatch]

Renarin is definitely going to be a major character in books 6-10; we know this from Brandon. His story is being saved for the second half of the series; he hasn't been robbed. It was always going to be this way. We have multiple statements from Brandon on this. 

[Solant]

I never felt like Renarin got any less page space than any of the other "back 5". 

 @Justi I'm going to point out something because nobody has talked about it. Those of us that have been around awhile all know it, but I don't know how much time you've spent on the boards, so I apologize if this is old news to you too.

The whole series will consist of ten books, each one focusing on a different order of Radiant. It will break down into 2 arcs of 5 books, with a significant time gap between the two. It will also focus on a separate 'main' character, alternating male/female. The front 5 get the most screen time in those books, while be back 5 will be at the front of that arc, with the original 5 falling somewhat into the background. The front consists of Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Venli/Eshonai, Szeth...  with the back being Lift, Taln, Ash, Renarin, Jasnah. I forget the exact order of the back 5. 

My reason for pointing this out is because Renarin is supposed to be a minor character at this point. We will get plenty of POV and flashbacks for him much later in the story.

[Justi]

39 minutes ago, Jaywalk said:

I’m honestly not sure why you’re still here. You’re consistently arguing in the hopes of converting devout Sanderfans to placing him in the same negative light you do. And you’re not using logic to do it, you’re attacking other people’s simple opinions because they don’t match up with their own. Did you just make an account on a fansite to complain?

 

Why of course this is why I made a account: complain  Why you did? And don’t worry, I’m going.  

 

5 minutes ago, Solant said:

I never felt like Renarin got any less page space than any of the other "back 5". 

 @Justi I'm going to point out something because nobody has talked about it. Those of us that have been around awhile all know it, but I don't know how much time you've spent on the boards, so I apologize if this is old news to you too.

The whole series will consist of ten books, each one focusing on a different order of Radiant. It will break down into 2 arcs of 5 books, with a significant time gap between the two. It will also focus on a separate 'main' character, alternating male/female. The front 5 get the most screen time in those books, while be back 5 will be at the front of that arc, with the original 5 falling somewhat into the background. The front consists of Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Venli/Eshonai, Szeth...  with the back being Lift, Taln, Ash, Renarin, Jasnah. I forget the exact order of the back 5. 

My reason for pointing this out is because Renarin is supposed to be a minor character at this point. We will get plenty of POV and flashbacks for him much later in the story.

Yes I know all of you are around awhile together. It is pretty evident because you are all thinking certain way now. I’m not judging, this is natural result of begin close community. Sorry to be a stranger here. And yes I know there will be 10 books but also Oatbringer supposedly should be about Dalinar. Which is a big lie. Why should I believe other books will be faithful to their main characters? 

[Solant]

That wasn't my point at all

[Winds Alight]

Storms I'm starting to have flashbacks on certain forum discussions earlier this year.

I'm going to leave this one now with one last advice: Don't feed the troll.

[Jaywalk]

8 minutes ago, Justi said:

And yes I know there will be 10 books but also Oatbringer supposedly should be about Dalinar. Which is a big lie. Why should I believe other books will be faithful to their main characters? 

...but Oathbringer was about Dalinar.

[Solant]

@Winds Alight is right. I'm out.

[Gilphon]

Man, Justi sure is full of bizarre claims. Oathbringer wasn't about Dalinar now? I guess because Kaladin and Shallan also got lots of time in the spotlight? That's a new one. Never mind the way Dalinar's decisions were driving the plot the whole way through, or the way the flashbacks were 100% about him, or how the resolution of his emotional arc was most of the book's climax or anything.

Like, Dalinar and Shallan had plenty to do in Kaladin's book, and Dalinar and Kaladin did lots in Shallan's book. This isn't a series where the spotlight ever stays entirely with a single character. But it's still pretty obvious who each book is really about.

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, Justi said:

If Shallan’s writing was good there should have been endless discussion about her motives and her choices and her story arc.

Again, this is on you. Those threads exist. Discussion of Shallan and her motivations, and her choices, and all of it have been extensive, and the love triangle is only a fraction of that. 

If you haven't seen those discussions, that's a matter of what you choose to read. 

4 hours ago, Justi said:

"Radiant who have some sort of disorder” was Renarin’s story. Sanderson tried to make Shallan “likeable” so he gave Renarin’s story to Shallan. Renarin completely overshadowed now. 

Shallan didn't steal anything from Renarin. Their stories are completely different, and Renarin was never intended to be a focus character until the second arc of stormlight. The story were getting of him is exactly as intended. 

As is Shallan's. The reason her story "changes" every book is because she's a classic fish out of water. She's a reactive character, driven by fear, who's jumping from situation to situation and just trying to deal. Her character has been remarkably consistent in that she's making it up as she goes along and trying to convince herself she's far more capable than she is. And there are real repercussions to her actions because of that. 

1 hour ago, Justi said:

Do you really think Renarin’s story in the 6-10 books will be special? His everyday struggles, his bond with his spren, his situation in the family (he is the person everyone tried to protect) and even his possible healing will not be special because Sanderson will write everything to Shallan by the time of 6th book. He already wrote some of it. Oh I’m sure Sanderson will bring “special new unimportant something(!)“ for him since he had do but those things are far far away from the plot and I expect effect will be like “new house elf coming to the Hogwarts for Parvati Patil. “ (I have nothing against house elfs btw just to point small things are not real ”story arc”)

I absolutely believe Renarin's storyline will be special, just like all of the others have been unique. 

These claims, based on your feelings about a character you've repeatedly said you skipped reading large chunks of her narrative are the reason people are so frustrated here. 

You claim to hate Shallan enough to have skipped reading chunks if her narrative, but you also know so much about her that you can say with confidence that she's poorly written, and steals the narrative of other characters. 

You can't have it both ways. You either didn't read it, and don't know what part she plays relative to the others, or you did, and dislike it, which is still your opinion. 

You have every right to dislike Shallan for whatever reason you wish. But when you make claims about lack of discussion about her, which are false, or that she's stolen the narratives of others (which would somehow require you to know Brandon's plans) you're not just insulting the books and Brandon, but your insulting the people who have taken an active role in the discussions you say don't exist about both her, and the supposedly stolen narratives. 

With that said, I'm going to just say, I hope you find something you do enjoy reading, and enjoy whatever discussion you find in the future. I won't be a part of it. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Calderis

[IcaroRibeiro]

I never understood why people find Shallan chapters boring. To be honest, in The Way of Kings I had kind of trouble time reading the part 2 of the book thanks to her absence. The fact she was outside Shattared Plains made them even more refreshing, loved the fact she was there to actually seal Jasnah soulcast and how everything ends, this arc has pretty much the three best plot twists of this book: Kabsal been one of the ghostbloods (and Shallan's father been related to them as well), Taravangian been Szeth's hidden master and of course the most important one, the Parshman actually been the voidbringers (this one was mindblowing af). 

The story plot that I never enjoyed was Kaladin's. Not because of the character, cause I love him. But never find his chapters interesting at all (except his flashbacks), like it was just him trying to survive alongside with his crewmates, it was the chapters with the least impact to Stormlight world-building and main arc (fight against Parshman and gods). I loved how the things end though, beautiful and even poetic. 

In the next books Shallan joined shattared plains, so we didn't have the refreshment of seeing other places anymore, but her journey until the city was nice, and even after she finally gets there, we still having funny moments and interactions with her and Adolin and Kaladin. And of course, she still had a cool story arc discovering about voidbringers, ghostbloods and trying to find Urithiru, she was like pretty much the character who made the whole story to progress.  

I agree her chapters on Oathbringer was a step down, but to be honest I just didn't find this book as enjoyable as the first two. The first part of the book was fine, with Kaladin expedition trough Alethkar and Dalinar trying to be a politician, and also Shallan trying to investigate about the Unmade along with Adolin. But the second part of the book was a bit filler, it was essentially just Shallan and Kaladin trying to organize their own orders with only Moash and Dalinar making the story to really progress. I have no idea why only her chapters were the boring ones, when she was pretty much in the same story arc with 2 other characters (Kaladin and Adolin) during 2 parts of the book. I kinda understand why people might find both Kholinar invasion and Shadesmar arc boring, but not specially her chapters been the only boring ones. 

[Elegy]

I was really surprised by how much I enjoyed the Shadesmar chapters on my re-read. I think the tension on my first read, after all the climaxes at the end of Part 3, made the calm, character-driven sequences in Part 4 kinda painful. I just wanted to know where it all went, and wasn't in the mood for the kinda meandering nature of that arc. This time around, I particularly enjoyed the Celebrant chapter, with all the little things happening at the same time at different places of the same small city. I also really enjoyed the atmosphere of those chapters, now that I was more relaxed as I went into it. 

The Kholinar arc, on the other hand ... I love that one, it's amazing. The atmosphere is dense, the setting full of mysteries and dangers. Also, Azure, Hoid, three Unmade at the same place. Part 3 of Oathbringer is easily one of my favorites of the whole Archive yet. I definitely don't see any flaws with Shallan's chapters in there. They're some of the best in the book, in my opinion. Kaladin, on the other hand - I can see why one would think that his arc in that particular part pales in comparison to Shallan's. She is out to find the oathgate, infiltrating the cult, which is pretty exciting. It's completely clear what she wants to achieve and why it's important, you know that it's going to be dangerous and you can see how her powers are the perfect fit for a job like that. Kaladin, on the other hand - well, he hangs around with Azure, just checking up what's up with her. And while he's at it, he might as well join the wall guard and fight some Fused. I still enjoyed his chapters a lot (might have something to do with Kaladin being my favorite character), but if there's one problem with Part 3, it's definitely his arc being kinda aimless. Shallan in Part 3 is amazing, just brilliant.

[Aon Tia]

8 hours ago, Winds Alight said:

Storms I'm starting to have flashbacks on certain forum discussions earlier this year.

I'm going to leave this one now with one last advice: Don't feed the troll.

Haha.. so true.. it is amazing how someone is so fixed in their hate of a character that they refuse to listen to any points in that characters favour and then point out that others are fixed in their opinions! Wow.. 

OB was all about dalinar.. I can not see how someone could miss dalinar in the story..! 

[Solant]

@Winds Alight I just got the "other threads" reference.  Ok, really leaving now.