[OB] Kaladin's love life ?

[Guest]

It's funny, that Adolin is suddenly supposed to play matchmaker, when he has shown a baffling ineptitude at romance for the past years and needed an arranged marriage with a desperate woman to even show an ounce of success in that regard.

[Rainier]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Waiting for him to balance before finding love is stupid, because he'll never have two sides to balance. Tarah wasn't the right one for him, which is why he didn't follow her. I don't doubt, that he loved her, but not enough to completely abandon his life for her.

This is a great point. Kaladin is so intense, he's not going to balance anything. He's going 100% on his way, especially after getting spurned in OB. It will take something really significant to get him to prioritize anything on the level of protecting his men. After all, he's not that far removed for abject slavery where he was sent to die on a weekly basis. You can't just slip that attitude off like a coat when you come inside.

Kaladin's love life will likely be what gets him to progress as a character, because something has to get to care about himself and his happiness instead of just his safety and the safety of the people he protects.

[Jofwu]

7 hours ago, SLNC said:

For that to happen, he first has to try. With all the trials and tribulations. If he finds the right one, he'll find a balance. Waiting for him to balance before finding love is stupid, because he'll never have two sides to balance. Tarah wasn't the right one for him, which is why he didn't follow her. I don't doubt, that he loved her, but not enough to completely abandon his life for her. Likewise, he wasn't the right one for Tarah, because she also didn't drop her opportunity to stay with him. Hence, why I also think, that they are done. There was love, but it wasn't strong enough.

Hmmm, well...

I agree that he doesn't have to become "perfect" before moving on to romance. Didn't mean to imply that. Well said.

But I disagree very much that Tarah just wasn't the one. Maybe, sure. But the whole point of the flashback in Oathbringer was to show that he hadn't found a balance. It was to point out that Kaladin's inability to let go of certain things was holding back his development. You don't just magically find a balance when the "right one" comes along. His inability to find a balance with Tarah at that particular time doesn't mean she wasn't the right one. It means Kaladin wasn't ready. And I think Tarah made the wise decision not to chase after a guy who wasn't ready for romance on the off chance that he came around one day.

There was love, and it wasn't strong enough, yes. That doesn't mean it couldn't become stronger after they (particularly Kaladin) have had some time to grow a bit.

"Because men make mistakes when they’re young and angry."

Ultimately, my point about him overcoming certain things before finding romance is about how I really do NOT want a girl to come along and "fix" Kaladin. If he gets into some romantic relationship BEFORE certain aspects of his character development milestones have been reached and THEN he reaches those milestones, I'm afraid it's going to feel like she came along and fixed him. I just want to avoid that, basically.

7 hours ago, SLNC said:

The problem with Kaladin are not his obessions, but his depression. That is always the underlying issue with him. He doesn't believe he's worthy of being loved - not even by soldiers, his friends, who he is trying so hard to protect.

Yeah, I was a bit lazy in describing Kaladin's issues perhaps. Depression is largely what's going on with Kaladin. I stand by the mention of "obsessions" though. The point is simply that those obsessions are rooted in his depression. I focus on that behavior rather than the depression itself because I don't at all want to say that Kaladin needs to heal from his depression before he's able to have a romantic relationship.

Back to the whole first point here. I'm not saying he has to "get better" first. I'm saying I don't think he has shown that he's ready to balance a romantic relationship yet, and that he needs to reach a place where he can let some things go before he is. The depression is behind all of it, absolutely. I just don't think we can expect THAT whole issue to be whisked away before he's ready.

5 hours ago, SLNC said:

It's funny, that Adolin is suddenly supposed to play matchmaker, when he has shown a baffling ineptitude at romance for the past years and needed an arranged marriage with a desperate woman to even show an ounce of success in that regard.

I could be wrong, but the way I read it, that's the joke.

[Guest]

Gotcha.

However, rekindling his relationship with Tarah just feels like too much of a consolation prize for me. I don't like it. Depends on how it is done I suppose. That is personal though.

The thing with Kaladin finding a balance before he commits to a relationship is, that I don't believe that to be feasible. He needs the relationship to even start the process of balancing. Right now, he only has one side of the scale, for balancing to happen, he has to get something to put on the second arm of the scale and then balance the scale out. That was the point I was trying to make. It would of course be optimal that he learns the act of balancing beforehand, but I don't believe it to be feasible. In fact, how OB ended on the relationship front for him further cemented his belief of him not being worthy of love ("Instead he felt... agreement?", "Some people can always be happy. I wish I could be too." [paraphrased]), so I do believe, that to break out from this hole, he needs to find someone, who actually shows him, that he is worthy of love. Someone who does love him no matter what. Even in hard times, when he gets struck by depression again. Someone who understands, when he will struggle with finding his balance. I don't believe the existence of such a person is a magical "fix", since the mending process still will be done by Kaladin himself, but rather a catalyst for that process.

Basically, I believe, that he can not find a balance before having something, someone, to balance his current responsibilities with. That and his low self-esteem I believe making learning that kind of balance beforehand infeasible.

On the front of Adolin and Syl playing matchmakers, I still don't get the comedy in the situation. It's actually a bit sad. Making it humorous kinda just feels like making fun of the guy, who can't let himself be loved due to mental illness. I just can't laugh about that.

 

Edited April 20, 2019 by SLNC

[Tiberius Gracchus]

On 11/19/2017 at 7:31 AM, Stromblessed said:

Personally I would love to see Kaladin and Jasnah get together . They're like perfect opposites of each other. Kaladin's decisions are driven by his emotions and passion while Jasnah makes cold , calculated decisions.

I don't know. The Kaladin and Jasnah pairing has never made sense to me. Their life experiences and more importantly values don't match at all. No matter how powerful any future lady-love of Kaladin's is he will still probably act extremely protective in a way that Jasnah would find infantalizing. Kaladin would make a terrible royal consort, he would hate all of the faux pleasantry and posturing associated with the Alethi court in exile. 

I hear some argue that this pairing would be made as a political arrangement. I don't get this either, Kaladin and Jasnah are both already committed to the same groups and organizations, a marital alliance would be redundant. Also neither of them would go along with an arranged marriage. Kaladin would be very uncomfortable making someone marry him, and Jasnah's love life and faith are the two subjects that she never bows to pressure on no matter how impractical or damaging it gets.

I fully expect Jasnah to become a "Virgin Queen" in the mold of Elizabeth I. Especially because Gavinor settles the question of an heir.  

I expect Kaladin to end up with a more normal woman, Tarah or someone else. His romance arc is about leaning how to have a life again and it makes more thematic sense to pair him with someone who doesn't need him to fight for her or protect her but just needs him to be there.

Tib

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

I expect Kaladin to end up with a more normal woman, Tarah or someone else. His romance arc is about leaning how to have a life again and it makes more thematic sense to pair him with someone who doesn't need him to fight for her or protect her but just needs him to be there.

If there is anyone, who doesn't need his protection and is going to make that abundantly clear, it's gonna be Jasnah.

These differences actually are the kind of thing, that would make a relationship interesting. For some reason, the majority opinion on here is so vehemently anti-conflict, that every hint of an argument (e.g. how to deal with the Parshendi) is met with insane amounts of dismissal and "concern", while I believe, that both Kaladin and Jasnah could learn a lot from each other. Arguments are not evil, arguments build character and facilitate growth. Does it necessarily have to be romantic? Of course not, but I certainly see a possibility for it to be, since I don't believe their core values are that different. It's just, that they approach them very differently and that is where the "learning from each other" comes in.

Edited April 24, 2019 by SLNC

[Tiberius Gracchus]

50 minutes ago, SLNC said:

If there is anyone, who doesn't need his protection and is going to make that abundantly clear, it's gonna be Jasnah.

I actually disagree with this. Jasnah is a queen. No matter how brilliant or powerful she is, she will need other powerful people to help uphold and secure her rule. (as exemplified by how much time Adolin, Navani, Jasnah, Kaladin and even Shallan have spent protecting Dalinar in the first 3 books)

Having a romantic relationship with Jasnah that any more official than "occasional booty call" would necessarily land Kaladin a full-time job as a de facto agent of the crown sworn to advance the Queen's interests. This would make Kaladin's relationship to Jasnah essentially the same as his realationship to Dalinar and Bridge 4 as the charge he must protect and serve.

Essentially Kaladin is in the process of learning work-life balance and how to have a life outside of his work and becoming the consort to the Queen is the exact opposite direction from where he needs to go.

Tib

P.S. When I said that Kaladin needs someone who doesn't need his protection I think this only works if it is someone who is just not regularly in danger as everyone else in his life is. 

[Firebolt-101]

On 11/19/2017 at 0:18 PM, Aleksiel said:

Kaladin had a short lived romance with Tarah, who is somewhere in Alethkar. Why not ignite the old fire in future books? 

That's what I've been thinking will happen- maybe she'll find her way to Urithiru or they'll reunite after a battle somewhere?

[Alderant]

NOTE: Though I am obviously a fan of a romantic relationship between Jasnah and Kaladin, I'm speaking mostly of an intimate relationship between them here. That could be romantic or platonic, but the important take-away is that Kaladin needs a relationship with someone that can get through his walls.

7 hours ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

I actually disagree with this. Jasnah is a queen. No matter how brilliant or powerful she is, she will need other powerful people to help uphold and secure her rule. (as exemplified by how much time Adolin, Navani, Jasnah, Kaladin and even Shallan have spent protecting Dalinar in the first 3 books)

There's a difference between needing it because you're incapable, and requiring it because of things outside your control. For Kaladin, the issue is often that he takes people under his wing that need his protection because they can't do it themselves, and then he builds them up and trains them to protect themselves. Jasnah--nor Dalinar--need Kaladin's protection. They require bodyguards, sure, but not protection in and of themselves. Just like Adolin doesn't need Kaladin's protection (but gets it anyway because that's Kaladin's job). Navani needs protection, because she isn't a fighter. Shallan needs protection for similar reasons--though in a pinch she can get herself out of trouble if necessary, facing down several opponents she has no chance.

As to this bit about Dalinar, I'd wager you're misremembering a bit. No one really 'protects' Dalinar--if that were the case, then Dalinar shouldn't have been in nearly so many life-or-death scenarios up to and including Sadeas's Betrayal, both encounters with the assassin, the bridge collapse, and Dalinar's own confrontation with Odium. Dalinar is a force--this is said repeatedly through the books. You can't force someone to be protected if they don't think they need it. Even in OB, Dalinar confronts most challenges alone. Calming political rivals, and working with Dalinar on plots, isn't protecting. In fact, if Dalinar was involved in protection in the first two books, it was Dalinar protecting Elhokar, and Kaladin protecting Dalinar's family--though he tries his best to keep Dalinar safe as much as is reasonable.

That said,

7 hours ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

Having a romantic relationship with Jasnah that any more official than "occasional booty call" would necessarily land Kaladin a full-time job as a de facto agent of the crown sworn to advance the Queen's interests. This would make Kaladin's relationship to Jasnah essentially the same as his realationship to Dalinar and Bridge 4 as the charge he must protect and serve.

I really disagree with this, because you're equating apples and oranges. Intimate relationships--especially romantic ones, but also platonic ones--are very different than that of lord to vassal (which is kind of Dalinar and Kaladin's relationship). Kaladin respects Dalinar, sees how important Dalinar is in the world, and protects him out of duty. Kaladin cares for Bridge 4 because they are his friends, but its at a point where he can't really protect them any more (and it's been that way since WoR). He has the duty to see to their needs because, again, that's his job.

With Jasnah, Kaladin already has to play bodyguard for her. His job is protecting the Alethi monarchy--he's already sworn to protect her by virtue of his oaths to protect Dalinar's family. An intimate relationship with Jasnah, therefore, would be an additional feature to highlight as a subplot alongside events that would likely be occurring anyway. And with how much the end of the relationship with Shallan smarted at the end of OB, I wager he's not going to be personally invested in being hers or Adolin's bodyguard. That leaves Dalinar, Navani, and Jasnah. And here's where we get to why I think he's already in the purported "de facto agent" position--Dalinar has made it clear that he wants Kaladin to focus on protecting Dalinar's family. Further, Kaladin is going to still feel guilt over his failure with Elhokar--he's not going to want to make that mistake again. Plus, I don't think he'll be able to resist goading Jasnah. He couldn't resist it with Shallan or Adolin until he saw them in a new light--same with Elhokar. So in my thoughts, he's already there, and therefore a relationship is a good literary device to fuel growth on both characters' parts through a romantic subplot, as well as continue the main plot of the political landscape.

7 hours ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

Essentially Kaladin is in the process of learning work-life balance and how to have a life outside of his work and becoming the consort to the Queen is the exact opposite direction from where he needs to go.

No, Kaladin's not in the process of learning work/life balance. Kaladin isn't learning how to have a life outside of his work--that has never been a part of his arcs, because he can't set that part of himself aside at all yet. And this isn't a lesson he needs to learn at this point, either. Kaladin's issues are prejudice and guilt. The latter of those two, is the fuel for his work drive. Until he learns to overcome that guilt, learning a work/life balance is out of the question, because he'll never allow himself to have a life until he feels he's worthy of one.

On 4/19/2019 at 10:47 PM, Jofwu said:

Back to the whole first point here. I'm not saying he has to "get better" first. I'm saying I don't think he has shown that he's ready to balance a romantic relationship yet, and that he needs to reach a place where he can let some things go before he is. The depression is behind all of it, absolutely. I just don't think we can expect THAT whole issue to be whisked away before he's ready.

I think an intimate relationship, one where Kaladin can have someone who he is both emotionally intimate with and who can be emotionally intimate in return, is vital to Kaladin's progression. I think most of @SLNC's argument on this topic stems from the idea that this kind of emotional intimacy is usually only achieved through romance in fiction, though I see no reason why it specifically has to be. Even with Tarah, who knew probably more than most, wasn't even half as emotionally intimate with Kaladin as Shallan or Tien were--and this is why I think Tarah ultimately falls short. She understood that there were some things he wasn't ready to let go, but from Kaladin's internalogue, there were many walls that he hadn't let her through. The only person we've every seen able to cut through those walls and reach Kaladin's core is Shallan (and it's implied that Tien did this as well), so I believe this kind of intimacy is essential--someone who can say, "Listen, I know you. I know your darkness. You deserve happiness just as much as everyone else." (Obviously, I'm discounting Syl here. As great as Syl is, I really don't think she's going to cut it ultimately.)

I think this is also why there is such frustration with Kaladin resuming a relationship with Tarah, or "some nice dark-eyed girl," because we've seen so few examples of someone who is able to be so intimate with him that other options seem a conciliatory handout. A bandaid to say "There, Kaladin's romance is done," without addressing any of the concerns surrounding it. But I could be wrong on all of this--time will tell.

[Jofwu]

24 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I think an intimate relationship, one where Kaladin can have someone who he is both emotionally intimate with and who can be emotionally intimate in return, is vital to Kaladin's progression.

That's a really good thought. I guess I tend to imagine him working through his problems with Syl. I don't want to see a romance come along to uplift him, but an intimate friendship? That would be fantastic. I'm on board with this.

If we're assuming that this proposed intimate relationship will happen with somebody who Kaladin already has an budding intimate relationship with then, yeah, our pool of candidates isn't very large. But I tend to suspect that we'd see this relationship develop in book 4, and so from that point of view it could practically be... almost anybody.

I think you're a bit too quick to dismiss Tarah on that basis. She could definitely show back up and build an intimate relationship with Kaladin. I'm skeptical that their failure to do this in the past implies they are incapable of having that. Kaladin's in a different place now. Maybe he's ready for it in a way that he simply wasn't then. That said, I don't like Tarah for this role because I simply think it would be hard to separate things from their romantic past.

I'd much rather see this relationship provided by... a member of Bridge Four? Adolin?

But I don't mean to turn the conversation in that direction. Ultimately the thread is about Kaladin's love life.

[Alderant]

19 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

That's a really good thought. I guess I tend to imagine him working through his problems with Syl. I don't want to see a romance come along to uplift him, but an intimate friendship? That would be fantastic. I'm on board with this.

Glad to hear someone else agrees with me, haha.

20 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

But I don't mean to turn the conversation in that direction. Ultimately the thread is about Kaladin's love life.

Agreed.

 

The following is a general statement not directed to anyone in particular.

As I've said before, I'm either in the "Jasnah" boat or the "Shallan" boat. And I have reasons for both of those, despite seeming conflict or existing drama, but I feel like these arguments have been had repeatedly and I'm not interested in rehashing. If you want to hear my thoughts, I'll gladly state them, but not for discussion purposes. That's been had and done and I'm tired of fighting the same battles just because someone doesn't like a specific interpretation I've drawn, or has a different headcanon from me.

[Tiberius Gracchus]

All right! This is the kind of discussion I was hoping to find on this site. 

33 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Calming political rivals, and working with Dalinar on plots, isn't protecting.

The line between advancing the interests of House Kholin and protecting Dalinar (the face and force of House Kholin) is very blurry. We can see this in Jasnah's prolouge as she sees herself as defending her father, brother and uncle in a way that only she can/will. We also see it in how much Adolin frames his relationship with the court and politics in general during WoK and WoR. He sees his role in Alethi politics as defending his father's person, reputation and the political project of his house and punishing those that dare threaten them. (primarily through duels and winning plateau runs) 

I imagine that this line will be even blurrier for Kaladin as he already has a tendency to see everything he does as a form of protection for those he cares about and feels responsible for. He has never limited his sphere of protection to only immediate physical threats otherwise he wouldn't have involved himself so thoroughly and immediately in Dalinar's political schemes. 

50 minutes ago, Alderant said:

No, Kaladin's not in the process of learning work/life balance. Kaladin isn't learning how to have a life outside of his work--that has never been a part of his arcs, because he can't set that part of himself aside at all yet. And this isn't a lesson he needs to learn at this point, either. Kaladin's issues are prejudice and guilt.

Yes, Kaladin's primary arcs are about his guilt and prejudice but reclaiming a somewhat normal life has been a consistent sub-theme in all 3 books for him and it the theme most tied to his love life. This theme is evident through his creation of nightly stew time in WoK, but it is brought even more to the fore in the later books once he has a little more control over what happens to him. Both Syl and many members of Bridge 4 consistently pressure Kaladin to smile more, to spend time drinking with his friends, and to pursue romantic relationships: (or in Syl's case just have some sex already) Syl encourages him to pursue Shallan, Teft demands that he spend time with his friends, Adolin and Shallan point out that he never has any fun, and I think it is Drehy (or maybe Leyten) who makes fun of him for always thinking about work and never about women. This theme is even evident in the Tarah flashback as much of that scene is about Kaladin prioritizing spear practice over spending time with her.

This is also why Brandon keeps bringing up the question of bridgemen with families and why Kaladin keeps putting off solving it. I have a strong intuition that this theme will become even more prominent in RoW. Brandon has already suggested that this book will happen over a much longer time frame. I am imagining RoW will involve scenes (probs in parts 2-3) where Kaladin is living in Urithiru with Bridge 4, his family, and possibly Tarah. This slowdown in the pace of events will finally give Kaladin the space to think about what he wants for himself outside of simply keeping his people alive

I am less concerned with a Tarah centered romance feeling cheap, as I trust Brandon to give the relationship the screen time and emotional investment it needs to develop. (these next two books are going to be giant anyway) This was why I was so happy with the Shallan triangle being resolved so quickly.

Tib

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

I am less concerned with a Tarah centered romance feeling cheap, as I trust Brandon to give the relationship the screen time and emotional investment it needs to develop.

I don't, seeing how poor a job he did with Adolin and Shallan.

Edited April 24, 2019 by SLNC

[Tiberius Gracchus]

14 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I don't, seeing how poor a job he did with Adolin and Shallan.

then we have different assessments of that relationship

[Tjeed]

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In Oathbringer, or near the end, Kaladin is talking to Syl about not getting Shallan or whatever, and he says that she really just reminded him of someone, who is it that she reminded him of?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

She reminded him of Tien, his brother, because his brother was a [unfortunate?] Lightweaver, and Lightweavers, you'll notice, when they're around someone, that person starts to act a little bit more like their best self. There's a bit of, also, counteraction to feelings of darkness and despair, it's just a natural Lightweaver sort of thing. And so, part of what Kaladin was drawing from Shallan was that feeling. I think it could've totally become love. And he's now cutting that off, he's saying it couldn't at all have become that - it could have. But that was part of what was drawing him in.

So what do you all think about this WOB, specifically the bolded part. 

[Alderant]

10 minutes ago, Tjeed said:

So what do you all think about this WOB, specifically the bolded part. 

That's a very open-ended question. Not sure if you're trying to set someone up or not, but my 2 cents:

I've seen countless times people trying to invalidate a relationship between Kaladin and Shallan by virtue of saying she reminds him of his brother. Every single argument fails to take into account that comparing someone to Tien is about the highest praise of a person Kaladin can give--Kaladin valued his brother above everything, and the loss of his brother is the primary reason what he is the way he is. To compare someone to the most important person in your life--and favorably so--puts them on an extremely high pedestal within your mind. This is what Kaladin did with Shallan, in my opinion. He put her up on a pedestal, equated her with Tien, and therefore completely unattainable. Why be upset when that person decides to go with someone else? It's only right. You're too far beneath them, and what you felt for them couldn't be love, because that's a concept you're not allowed to have.

I'm very much getting into the depression psyche here, but this is basically the way I interpret it. Kaladin placed Shallan on a pedestal, and when she chose Adolin, that was only a confirmation of his worldview. He didn't lose because he was never competing. He isn't bitter because she deserves so much more than he could give. He accepts it, because that's how the world is and should be. And to keep himself from being upset about it, he cuts himself off from that feeling--just like at the beginning of OB he was practically in denial about feeling anything for her, despite obvious signs--because at his core, he never believed he was worthy of a relationship with her anyway.

2 hours ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

Yes, Kaladin's primary arcs are about his guilt and prejudice but reclaiming a somewhat normal life has been a consistent sub-theme in all 3 books for him and it the theme most tied to his love life. This theme is evident through his creation of nightly stew time in WoK, but it is brought even more to the fore in the later books once he has a little more control over what happens to him. Both Syl and many members of Bridge 4 consistently pressure Kaladin to smile more, to spend time drinking with his friends, and to pursue romantic relationships: (or in Syl's case just have some sex already) Syl encourages him to pursue Shallan, Teft demands that he spend time with his friends, Adolin and Shallan point out that he never has any fun, and I think it is Drehy (or maybe Leyten) who makes fun of him for always thinking about work and never about women. This theme is even evident in the Tarah flashback as much of that scene is about Kaladin prioritizing spear practice over spending time with her.

This is also why Brandon keeps bringing up the question of bridgemen with families and why Kaladin keeps putting off solving it. I have a strong intuition that this theme will become even more prominent in RoW. Brandon has already suggested that this book will happen over a much longer time frame. I am imagining RoW will involve scenes (probs in parts 2-3) where Kaladin is living in Urithiru with Bridge 4, his family, and possibly Tarah. This slowdown in the pace of events will finally give Kaladin the space to think about what he wants for himself outside of simply keeping his people alive

I see where you're coming from here, but I still disagree. Yes, this theme is evident, because it showcases just how much Kaladin's own psyche and mentality get in the way of him enjoying the world around him. Everyone pushes at him to live his life (and this is something neurotypical people do to depressed people all the time), but he can't, because he has some major hurdles to get through before he can do so. He doesn't put off the bridgemen and their families because he's prioritizing his work, he does it because he isn't even considering that a thing. He's surprised when it's brought up, even though the thought has occurred, because he just doesn't think about life outside of his work. Not for himself, not for his men. Until he can resolve those internal issues, he is never going to be able to accept having a life that isn't wrapped up in that.

I can see scenes in RoW where Kaladin is living in Urithiru, checking in on his family and Bridge Four, etc. But I think, rather than your suspicions, that that slowdown is going to propel him into overdrive, rather than cause him to pause and think. Kaladin doesn't like to sit still--when he has to sit still, he gets melancholic. Instead, he'll keep himself active through his duties, which is one of the reasons I think he needs someone who can be intimately at his side--someone who can say, "Look, it's okay to feel this way. It's okay to stop and feel, Kal. Focus on the people in front of you."

Where what I said is different from previous examples, however, is that this intimate connection allows this person to tell Kaladin in the way he needs to hear it. Right now, though everyone tries to tell him that same thing, there are all these walls between Kaladin and everyone else. Walls of perception, of distance, of social comfortability. Kaladin needs someone who can say "I know what you're going through and it's okay. Let me walk with you until you get there." not "I know you're going through stuff, be you need to walk a bit faster. You need to socialize more, get your crap figured out so we can all have fun together." (I'm intentionally overstating for effect)

2 hours ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

This was why I was so happy with the Shallan triangle being resolved so quickly.

I wouldn't say it's resolved, unless by resolution you mean a decision has been reached. There was absolutely no resolution or closure in OB to me--just a decision being reached. But again, this is about Kaladin, not the triangle, and I really don't want to rehash this conversation, so I'll leave my remarks at that. Suffice it to say, you and I read these relationships very differently.

[Tiberius Gracchus]

7 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I've seen countless times people trying to invalidate a relationship between Kaladin and Shallan by virtue of saying she reminds him of his brother. Every single argument fails to take into account that comparing someone to Tien is about the highest praise of a person Kaladin can give

Full-hearted agreement here

18 minutes ago, Alderant said:

He doesn't put off the bridgemen and their families because he's prioritizing his work, he does it because he isn't even considering that a thing. He's surprised when it's brought up, even though the thought has occurred, because he just doesn't think about life outside of his work. Not for himself, not for his men. Until he can resolve those internal issues, he is never going to be able to accept having a life that isn't wrapped up in that.

I think we are mostly in sync on this part except that I place less emphasis on Kaladin's mental health as the source of his social isolation (I still place some) as I do on the fact that his life for the past year or so has been a string of non-stop emergencies. Part 2-3 of WoR and part 2 of OB (the parts where the bridgeman families are brought up) are the only times Kaladin hasn't spent in situations that most people would count as the most stressful times in their lives. My understanding of the family question has more to do with Brandon's intent than Kaladin's. Brandon has been foreshadowing that Bridge 4 transitioning from a super-stressed band of slave/soldiers just trying to reach tomorrow to a permanent organization that provides lifetime employment and security that people can build lives around, will be a major plot line that we just haven't gotten to yet.

It only makes sense to pair this plot line with character development for Kaladin adjusting to a life where he can plan for more than 2 days in the future by developing real relationships with his family and possibly a partner.

49 minutes ago, Alderant said:

But I think, rather than your suspicions, that that slowdown is going to propel him into overdrive, rather than cause him to pause and think. Kaladin doesn't like to sit still--when he has to sit still, he gets melancholic. Instead, he'll keep himself active through his duties, which is one of the reasons I think he needs someone who can be intimately at his side--someone who can say, "Look, it's okay to feel this way. It's okay to stop and feel, Kal. Focus on the people in front of you."

I do not expect this change to happen quickly or easily. Learning to have a life again will be very hard for Kaladin and I suspect it will be a significant hurdle for his future oaths.

Those in relationships with him will need a great deal of patience, grace and understanding of his inner world to help him grow through this. I however do not think that he will grow in this way without those he loves demanding it of him and giving him the time he needs to adjust. 

[Alderant]

1 minute ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

I think we are mostly in sync on this part except that I place less emphasis on Kaladin's mental health as the source of his social isolation (I still place some) as I do on the fact that his life for the past year or so has been a string of non-stop emergencies. Part 2-3 of WoR and part 2 of OB (the parts where the bridgeman families are brought up) are the only times Kaladin hasn't spent in situations that most people would count as the most stressful times in their lives. My understanding of the family question has more to do with Brandon's intent than Kaladin's. Brandon has been foreshadowing that Bridge 4 transitioning from a super-stressed band of slave/soldiers just trying to reach tomorrow to a permanent organization that provides lifetime employment and security that people can build lives around, will be a major plot line that we just haven't gotten to yet.

It only makes sense to pair this plot line with character development for Kaladin adjusting to a life where he can plan for more than 2 days in the future by developing real relationships with his family and possibly a partner.

Yeah, I place a lot more emphasis on Kaladin's mental health, but that's because I have depression and so I see very similar trends--Brandon has done an excellent job portraying this in fiction.

I agree on what Brandon is doing, but I also want to go back and point out that this is also showing that Bridge Four is outgrowing Kaladin, which is something he's never had to face because everyone's always died. They are progressing, while he's staying stagnant--and almost all of Bridge Four's development in OB occurred without Kaladin, which is why I don't link them integrally to his development.

As you pointed out, that pairing does make sense, if that were what was actually shown in the books. Unfortunately, the way I see things is that this stuff with Bridge Four is actually highlighting Kaladin's problems, rather than progressing alongside them. Much like the scene with Tarah was showcased to show that he still isn't over his core issues, Bridge Four highlights just how much those issues are holding him back.

As to your last lines, I agree. Which is why I've said what I have regarding him needing an intimate relationship to progress.

[Tiberius Gracchus]

16 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I agree on what Brandon is doing, but I also want to go back and point out that this is also showing that Bridge Four is outgrowing Kaladin, which is something he's never had to face because everyone's always died. They are progressing, while he's staying stagnant--and almost all of Bridge Four's development in OB occurred without Kaladin, which is why I don't link them integrally to his development.

As you pointed out, that pairing does make sense, if that were what was actually shown in the books. Unfortunately, the way I see things is that this stuff with Bridge Four is actually highlighting Kaladin's problems, rather than progressing alongside them. Much like the scene with Tarah was showcased to show that he still isn't over his core issues, Bridge Four highlights just how much those issues are holding him back.

We just didn't get much Kaladin development in OB at all. (We didn't get much Kaladin full stop) Mostly I think that this was to justify his failure to say the 4th oath (A moment that I think was important enough to warrant it) I excpect that we will be getting a lot more Kaladin in RoW and that these issues will be the focus, perhaps even more than Vyre.

[Rainier]

4 hours ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

then we have different assessments of that relationship

Hoooo boy, do I have a thread for you...

I'll chime in that I thought Shallan and Kaladin were pointed directly towards each other at the end of WoR, engagement be damned, and I still think that Shallan is the most likely partner for him. I really don't want to drag up old arguments, and that thread got closed for a reason. If you see some fatigue on this topic, that thread is why, and you should see some familiar faces there.

The summary linked at the top by @Ailvara is pure gold, however.

[Tiberius Gracchus]

4 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Hoooo boy, do I have a thread for you...

Yeah I am aware of the deep-seated controversy around this subject and that I view the way the arc played out more favorably than most do.

[Numuhuku]

On 4/23/2019 at 9:57 PM, Tiberius Gracchus said:

I hear some argue that this pairing would be made as a political arrangement. I don't get this either, Kaladin and Jasnah are both already committed to the same groups and organizations, a marital alliance would be redundant. Also neither of them would go along with an arranged marriage. Kaladin would be very uncomfortable making someone marry him, and Jasnah's love life and faith are the two subjects that she never bows to pressure on no matter how impractical or damaging it gets.

I really don't get the political aspect of something like that either. Radiants aren't hereditary. They're a "can you befriend/impress a spren?" meritocracy.  Marriage ties don't bind alliances/inheritance with future radiants the way they do for other kinds of property or titles. I don't see marriage between orders of Radiants as manifesting in bonds more significant than the personal level. And while I'm all for the odd crack shipping, I don't seriously see being a major thing between Jasnah and Kaladin for a boat load of reasons.

 

 

[Pathfinder]

55 minutes ago, Numuhuku said:

I really don't get the political aspect of something like that either. Radiants aren't hereditary. They're a "can you befriend/impress a spren?" meritocracy.  Marriage ties don't bind alliances/inheritance with future radiants the way they do for other kinds of property or titles. I don't see marriage between orders of Radiants as manifesting in bonds more significant than the personal level. And while I'm all for the odd crack shipping, I don't seriously see being a major thing between Jasnah and Kaladin for a boat load of reasons.

 

 

So although I am in complete agreement with @Tiberius Gracchus on a political marriage not being necessary between Jasnah and Kaladin, I could see the political aspect in other cases. Basically any darkeyes that becomes a radiant is now a light eyes that potentially can pass his or her lighteyeness down to their children. If the society still holds to lighteyes are nobility, then that means becoming a radiant automatically makes you nobility, and anyone you marry becomes nobility as well as your children. Now personally I think the fact that anyone can bond a radiant spren (as you said based on their merits and the spren) will mean that the whole lighteyes means nobility and dark eyes are lower will be upended. But prior to that, marrying a radiant I could see as being a political boon. Once enough dark eyes start bonding spren and realizing lighteyes ain't all holier than thou and the almighty is dead (which is the supposed divine right of light eyes to rule), I could see the whole system changing. 

[Dahak]

On 19/11/2017 at 4:56 PM, Stromblessed said:

But I can't honestly think of anyone else we know who is a good match for Kaladin.

Marasi Colms. Intelligent, level headed, heroic, addicted to adventure, about the right age. Could turn out to be a totally different Skybreaker.

Admittedly during Stormlight through book 5 she's on another planet, but we know know that isn't much of a limit, for the second half.

[Sirscott13]

 

“She [Jasnah] would *not* have her family implode. If Alethkar was going to survive the Desolation, they’d need a committed leadership. A stable throne.”

Oathbringer Chapter 53: Such a Twisted Cut. 

 

Jasnah would do anything to protect her family and the throne which she now holds. However she is a woman at the head of the Vorin nation and will cause quite a bit of controversy. I think she will also be pressured to seek out a husband. I don’t believe she has any romantic interest in Kaladin, but he *is* the most eligible bachelor in the kingdom now. Not to mention he has the love and respect of the people and dark eyes. A marriage to him would help stabilize her throne. 

Also this quote:

“ ‘It doesn’t bother you at all?’ Jasnah said. ‘The idea of being beholden to another, particularly a man?’”

Words of Radiance chapter 1: Santhid

 

Jasnah isn’t afraid of a relationship, she’s afraid of being beholden to anyone. Well she’s queen now so any person she chooses will be bellow her in position and she will be free still. 

 

Anyways despite what others claim I think her approach to stabilizing her position and her throne will lead her to entertaining the idea of seeking out Kaladin. If nothing else, just to tie all the heads of the radiants to her family and earn the respect of the kingdom. 

Edited April 27, 2019 by Sirscott13