[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Dreamstorm]

6 minutes ago, Bacon said:

My distaste for the match is less about aspects of it being identifiable as tropes, and more about it feeling contrived. So much about what happens around Kaladin and Shalan feels like it happens just because they're main characters. To an extent, that particular syndrome is unavoidable just because you've gotta keep people interested in them from book to book. But thanks to such a tight focus on the from the get-go Shalan and Kaladin always felt inevitable even From before they met each other, regardless of what they personally wanted in a relationship. At the end of Oathbringer when Adolin confronted her saying she would be better off with Kaladin, it's like Shalan got a copy of the script she was supposed to read and decided "hey, you know what? Screw that".

I love that. I mean sure, it's not the best choice available. She obviously SHOULD have ran off to be with Rock. But no story is perfect I suppose.

I don't think most people here are upset about the fact that main female character and main male character didn't end up together.  It's that a dynamic was built up throughout almost two books, and then suddenly "solved" in a the blink of an eye in a way that didn't follow the previous development.  To use your analogy, if you just replace the last pages of a script without totally rewriting the whole script, you end up with a story that doesn't hang together.  Unfortunately, that seems to be what happened here. 

17 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

So much more could've been squeezed of this and it frustrates me so much. It felt like Brandon had an intention in WoR, but then with everything else happening in the book he changed his mind and dropped it. And maybe I have no right to be mad at him, but I am. Don't make promises if you don't intend on keeping them.

I don't think this will be adressed any further. I think this was it, for the potential love triangle, the marriage and Shallan's declaration at the end made everything pretty clear. Honestly I am not interested in reading more about this. I felt like it was poorly handled and instead of having Moash mirroring Kaladin's arc from WoK, I would've preffered this to be done properly. 

I completely agree with this (and the rest of your post.)  The thing that I find frustrating is it would have been amazing character development (in my mind) if when Adolin came to tell Shallan he was going to step aside, Shallan's reaction would have been the same "I'm not a prize" speech but instead of jumping into marriage, saying she didn't want to be with anyone right then as she had a lot to sort out with herself.  (Broken or not, if you're flipping between two people, it's probably a sign you shouldn't commit to either of them at that exact moment, no?)  I actually think that would have flowed nicely and set up much stronger character development. 

[Guest]

@mariapapadia

To be honest, I have been waiting for your write-up, so thank you.

I don't agree with everything, but with the general sentiment.

41 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

My problem isn't with Shallan and Adolin getting together, but with Brandon. God knows how I love this man and his books, he is by far my favourite author, but with this he blew it for me. I am dissapointed because I felt like I have been promised something, but there was never the intention of being given that certain thing. And I am mad because Brandon has never been the guy to promise something and then not deliver it. The only things that I've had problems with in Brandon's previous books so far, where female characters and romances and up until OB everything was improving so much. The tension he created when it came to romance, the female characters, everything screamed great for me. I don't really understand what was the point of Kaladin in this whole thing. Why create so much tension between two characters and then not commit to any of it?! Teasing without giving anything is no fun. Why not even adress it between those certain characters?! 

I am afraid to say this, but you are completely right. Brandon really disappointed me here. Not because Kaladin and Shallan didn't get together, like you, halfway through the book, I felt like Kaladin is really dodging a bullet. This is simply not the right time for them, but what greatly angers me is that Brandon decided to completely drop it. The chasm sequence in WoR was one of the most beautifully crafted pieces of prose I have ever read. Ever. It was subtly romantic and moving, while also having a real sense of danger. I just loved the interaction between Kaladin and Shallan... the two just work. The conversation in Shadesmar? On the boat? Started exactly the same. I immediately started grinning, because I felt how they just... Connect, yes, with a capital C. And now? I'm afraid we'll see even less, since, knowing Kaladin, he'll distance herself even more from Shallan out of respect for Adolin.

Which brings me to Adolin... I really want to like the guy... I really do. But it is just so hard, when he is exactly the thing standing between Kaladin and Shallan - even just talking to each other. Kaladin basically constantly recites "She is betrothed to Adolin.", so he never talks to her. It fits Kaladin's character, but it was exactly what I was afraid of when the three went to Kholinar. Another thing, which really makes me dislike him is the almost cult-like worship of his character, that is being practiced. It makes me feel like people seem to get something, that I don't get. I get it. He's a nice guy. And?

/personal rant over

41 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

There was absolutely NO conflict in Shallan's and Adolin's relationship. NONE whatsoever. The multiple personas thing is Shallan's conflict and it didn't creat a real stuggle to their relationship. I don't feel like they progressed in any way. I was expecting to see Adolin's commitment issues adressed, have something that felt like a real milestone or have her seen from his point of view. To show to the reader why he likes her, why they are right together. Show me, not tell me. Instead it was all the same from the beginning. They got to know eachother better, but no spice,  nothing exciting. Instead of introducing the Kaladin element, I would've preffered for them to have conflict in a different way. To fight, to lie, to have anything to make this more.. 

So. Much. This. I am so, so afraid, that they will never experience real conflict. Why? Adolin never tells Shallan a piece of his mind. He never challenges her. He is blindly accepting everything she is doing. But I don't want to solely blame him. Shallan does the same. Their relationship is shallow and bland and I'm very afraid that it is going to stay that way.

 

41 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Before you tell this isn't a romance novel and it woudln't have beein interesting to see those disscusion, don't tell me that the massages , cheesy giddy moments or Kaladin having the same argument will Syl added something to the story.

I'm going to be verbose here: "Ist das jetzt wirklich dein Ernst, Brandon? Fällt dir wirklich nichts besseres ein?" (Are you serious, Brandon? Can't you really think of something better?) is something I have exclaimed during reading those passages complete with an eye-roll.

Luckily, the rest of the book was good. But this... this was just wasted potential par exellence.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SLNC

[Arch]

31 minutes ago, Bacon said:

My distaste for the match is less about aspects of it being identifiable as tropes, and more about it feeling contrived. So much about what happens around Kaladin and Shalan feels like it happens just because they're main characters. To an extent, that particular syndrome is unavoidable just because you've gotta keep people interested in them from book to book. But thanks to such a tight focus on the from the get-go Shalan and Kaladin always felt inevitable even From before they met each other, regardless of what they personally wanted in a relationship. At the end of Oathbringer when Adolin confronted her saying she would be better off with Kaladin, it's like Shalan got a copy of the script she was supposed to read and decided "hey, you know what? Screw that".

I love that. I mean sure, it's not the best choice available. She obviously SHOULD have ran off to be with Rock. But no story is perfect I suppose.

Thats a lot more reasonable a critism, but i still think pulling the carpet from underneath your audience like that is a cheap trick. It was just so abrupt... One moment both Veil and Radiant are ready to jump on to Kaladin then a few pages later Adolin and Shallan are getting married?!?
Honestly, I don't even know if I want Shallan and Kaladin together, but this just isnt a good way of ending this plotline (which is why i hope it isnt over). Especially when listing off listing Adolins good qualities the fact that he's attractive is both the first and last thing she mentions... I don't think this relationship is fair to adolin either lol.

edit: I just think there needs to at the very least be some closure for me to accept Adolin and Shallan. ''I'm an artist, Adolin. I appreciate a nice picture when I see one'', come on... is this a joke??

Edited November 20, 2017 by Arch

[mariapapadia]

@Dreamstorm funny, because I totally agree with the other post you made  Probably the only thing I enjoyed out of this, was Shallan telling she's not a prize. I am glad she made that clear. That being said, I feel like the wedding was rushed and had no purpose in this book rather than "seal the deal" and make it clear this was it. It especially annoyed me when she said that after the rushed wedding of Navadni and Dalinar everyone wanted a proper Alethi wedding. You could've at least saved that for the beginning of the next book and show us something as well ! Also, "proper wedding" to Shallan means getting married after 3-4 months of knowing eachother, while you are still all over the place with your emotions and being attracted to two people at the same time. Huh! If it's that easy, then I should've gotten married long ago. Anyway. Glad to see I am not the only one thinking this could've been more 

[Subvisual Haze]

Even Kaladin's thoughts about Shallan reminding him of Tien felt a little flat.  After their talk in the chasms last book, I never got the impression of any sort of strong emotional connection between Kaladin and Shallan.  They seemed to banter with one another more out of habit than anything.  When Kaladin had his episode of depression this book Shallan offered very little emotional support to him, it was Syl giving him hugs, and charmingly Adolin offering endless support (helping Kaladin after the battle, carrying his pack for him in Shadesmar, asking him questions in Shadesmar just to force Kaladin to interact with others and not withdraw, complimenting him at points, and teasing him about his face in a way that made it 100% clear he was joking with you).

We expected Shallan to the be the "prize" competed for in this love triangle, but really the true gem in the triangle was Adolin.  That guy was pure emotional support to everyone around him.  Based on his skills as amazingly supportive friend and boyfriend, Adolin should make an excellent Edgedancer.

[brandondash]

Sure are a lot of people in this thread who are ignoring that there are two more books to go.

[Egomere]

@mariapapadia Your post was fantastic.

Defninately dissappointed over the whole triangle. As I've said in previous posts - it wasn;t that Shallan and Adolin got together it's just how it was done. Felt so unnaturally forced with Kaladin and Shallan having almost no page time to address how they feel. (and the thing is I'm quite happy they didn't get together - it's just how Shallan chose to Adolin after deliberately avoiding and 'repressing' /  shunting feelings for Kaladin to Veil. It didn't feel like she was making a choice per se (how can a choice of 1 be choice?)

I mean ok so Kaladin feels better around Shallan - that's cool but why did BS not give them time to work out they care for each other as friends not actually romantic love. After having the Chasm scene they seemed to go from potential friends / more to nothing at all (and it's almost all Shallan's fault for the lack of interaction.)

Just now, Subvisual Haze said:

We expected Shallan to the be the "prize" competed for in this love triangle, but really the true gem in the triangle was Adolin.  That guy was pure emotional support to everyone around him.  Based on his skills as amazingly supportive friend and boyfriend, Adolin should make an excellent Edgedancer.

Well to be fair he still might... I mean I'm not entirely sure how it would work but if he is able to revive Mara? eventually he could become and edgedancer (was Mara an edgedancer's blade previously? If he does revive her and that allows him to start on the path of a radient that would add an extra layer into the Shadolin mix. I mean we really don't know if the wedding was the end or not yet.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Egomere said:

I mean ok so Kaladin feels better around Shallan - that's cool but why did BS not give them time to work out they care for each other as friends not actually romantic love. After having the Chasm scene they seemed to go from potential friends / more to nothing at all (and it's almost all Shallan's fault for the lack of interaction.)

Yes.

[mariapapadia]

@SLNC Hahah! Thank you ! I am catching up with the posts on the forum, but I also agree with you on a lot of points you made. The chasm scene was also one of my favourite scenes from the series and from what Brandon has written, as well !  This is why all of this is so painfull. Why tease me with that only for nothing more exciting to happen ? It created to much anticipation and now dissapointment, that I can't look at it with the same eyes. Ok, no development on the Shallan and Kaladin front, but give me something that powerful from Shallan and Adolin at least. Not only hihihi hahaha. Anyway.. It will take me a while to accept this. At this point, I don't want any other promises of something more, because it hurts to much to be dissapointed even when I tried as much as I could to be in the middle. 

 

[Oberyn]

52 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

I was one of the people who was all in for this love triangle, I was anticipating it so much and I was advocating that whatever Brandon will write it will be a satisfying conclusion. Scratch that. My problem isn't with Shallan and Adolin getting together, but with Brandon. God knows how I love this man and his books, he is by far my favourite author, but with this he blew it for me. I am dissapointed because I felt like I have been promised something, but there was never the intention of being given that certain thing. And I am mad because Brandon has never been the guy to promise something and then not deliver it. The only things that I've had problems with in Brandon's previous books so far, where female characters and romances and up until OB everything was improving so much. The tension he created when it came to romance, the female characters, everything screamed great for me. I don't really understand what was the point of Kaladin in this whole thing. Why create so much tension between two characters and then not commit to any of it?! Teasing without giving anything is no fun. Why not even adress it between those certain characters?! 

And the thing is, I think he even started great in part 1 in the Shadolin moments. Not much conflict but the chapters in Shallan's room were a nice build up for chemistry, intimacy and love. Suddenly, after that, there weren't any steps that happen in a couple. No more intimacy, no opening of secrets, no real talking about the Kaladin situation unless you count the end which I think sounded just weird.

[Subvisual Haze]

5 minutes ago, Egomere said:

Well to be fair he still might... I mean I'm not entirely sure how it would work but if he is able to revive Mara? eventually he could become and edgedancer (was Mara an edgedancer's blade previously? If he does revive her and that allows him to start on the path of a radient that would add an extra layer into the Shadolin mix. I mean we really don't know if the wedding was the end or not yet.

Yes, that is what I was alluding to.  Maya is an Edgedancer spren (the sword looks like vines when it is being summoned, sort of like Wyndle).  Edgedancers were the healers and listeners of the Radiant orders, which Adolin fits well.

[Darvys]

@Subvisual Haze Yeah, she only spared a moment to tell herself not to think about his state of mind, sure they were in a dire spot, but to not think of it even when they were safe ?. She's so used to repressing her own feelings she has no clue how to begin to handle someone else's, and then she shuts down the moment he akwardly mentions how he'd like to be able to emulate her in "coping" with it all ... At times like this i'm reminded that she's just a kid, and in a way, it's for the best she ended up with Adolin, as neither of them has a clue what they want or should expect from a relationship, hopefully the trainwreck that is their marriage will be a good learning experience.

[DeployParachute]

2 hours ago, Harbour said:

And the worst thing that i dont want to happen is Shalladin with the cost of Adolin's life. I dont want Shalladin to happen partly because Adolin died. There are two cons of this terrible turn of the plot:

1) It makes Adolin an ultimate looser. He just... died, heroic or not, but he didn't break up with Shallan on his own because solid reasons, but because some wound. Thats crap ending for Shadolin. I dont want Shadolin's end (if there will be one of course) to be handled as bad as its beginning. Handle it with class, BS.

2) It kinda makes Shalladin happening mostly because someone else, not because Shallan and Kaladin potential love and struggle and other exciting stuff. Againg, if BS ever gonna handle Shalladin, i hope he will do it with the class. Let it be because other reasons than Adolin's death.

I also like other's ideas about maturing through other pairings. Shallan and Adolin, Kaladin and someone else. Let them grow up. Then hook them up in the back half of the SA (for example) already matured, because solid reasons, like Navani and Dalinar did in OB.

I'll add to this, as it builds upon feelings about why I want this plot to be really and truly done with, as "suggested" by the marriage between Adolin and Shallan.

Moving forward, assuming that Brandon didn't completely abandon the Shalladin ship, and he still has plans for this to be addressed in the future, there are only a few scenarios that I can see playing out in order to end Shadolin.

1. Adolin and Shallan start encountering real problems and difficulties with their relationship resulting in
    a) Shallan seeking to break it off (hurts Adolin, perhaps even contributes to him breaking enough for his own Nahel bond)

    b ) Adolin seeking to break it off (now wouldn't that be interesting?)

2. Adolin dies.  Please no.  No No No.  As you said, it would be one of the worst things done to a character. I've grown too attached to him, and a death would mean that he really, truly was no more than a handy stable plot device to be used by the author to force development for other characters.  This would be tragic to see this character end up this way

Regardless of which of the above events were to occur, my problem with all of them, with the expectation that Shallan and Kaladin is revisited, is that no matter what, Kaladin gets to end up being Shallan's "second choice".  The runner up.  Especially if Kaladin has no other romantic entanglements or narratives of his own.  He gets to just wait around until Shallan decides that she is finally ready for him.  I hate the thought of that.  If Kaladin is to have a romantic plot in upcoming books, then I feel that he deserves to be someone's first choice.  

This is why, now that Shallan appears to have made her decision (even if it was done when she wasn't in full agreement with herself), that I want this whole thing to be done.  I can make my peace with it, if it ends here.  I can let the ship that never was go.  Just don't drag it out, because I can't see a satisfactory outcome (for myself at least) coming about if it does.

Edited November 20, 2017 by DeployParachute

[AubreyWrites]

It has been several years since I posted on these forums but I feel like I kinda had to in order to crystallize the source of my dissatisfaction with OB and it really boils down to this plot line. Let me clarify that I really liked this book. Not my favorite but I really did enjoy it. 

I will admit that I was a hardcore Shalladin Shipper in WoR. That chasm scene....one of the best scenes of the book for me. Someone else on here quoted it as being subtly romantic and expertly crafted. I loved it because it takes 2 people who,yes are attracted to each other, and then builds a meaningful connection between them. Add in all the other build up of matching up intellectually and physical attraction and I was set for them to be an eventuality even if it is a slow burn. ( I actually prefer slow burns) 

HOWEVER, I was not opposed to having my mind changed to favor Shalodin if done properly.

Spoiler

Such as with Wax and Steris. I totally shipped wax/marasai for the first 3 books but by the very end of the 4th book I was ok with steris - even thought it was the right choice for Wax. 

Changing my mind on Wax's choices felt natural as the build up to those choices felt very natural. 

I can't say that I felt this was properly done at all. Which makes me think it's NOT done. There are just too many things that don't add up. 

First , like others have stated this didn't really feel like a triangle at all- more an exercise in exposing Shallan's fragmentation as a person. I wanted some actual meaningful interaction between Shallan and Kaladin. I'm not even talking romantic stuff - just meaningful. We got one coversation in the whole book which Shallan immediately misconstrues. 

I thought - maybe their interaction after she finds out about Heleran...but no she immediately shoves that aside and then dismisses it as 'he was just doing his job.' This would seem like a super mature rational stance to take. I can see Jasnah responding like this and actually meaning it. Mature, super rational - words I don't think anyone can really use to describe Shallan at this point. Instead we get bouts of unexplainable rudeness/cruelty towards Kaladin (unresolved issues much?) 

then the trip to Thaylen - it's just the 2 of them- perfect  opportunity for some sort of interaction. ANY interaction. Completely skipped over.  

It makes sense for Kaladin to not pursue her at all. She's in a causal. His oaths are based on honor. Even if he feels attraction he's not ever going to act on it until she has the freedom to do the same. Even more so now that she's married so i figure this part of the triangle is done until something changes

If I could figure it how to copy/past others comments in here I would totally do so to show aspects of why I still prefer shalladin over shalodin - but at this point I'm worried for Adolin. Poor guy is getting shafted.

Not only is much of his own character issues not dealt with (wandering eyes/ big fish little pond swap/ self styled murderer...) he has now entered a relationship where his primary role will be support staff for a girl (she's what supposed to be barely 18?) who has MASSIVE mental health issues that he has no idea how to deal with and he is flying blind in not knowing her history or where these issues are coming from and she shows no inclination to tell him. The fact that the only thing she CONSIDERS  telling him about is the Ghostbloods and she can't even do that as her "primary aspect....

Shallan is super broken and at least 1/3-2/3rds of herself  doesn't actually choose him. Veil wants Kaladin and Radient is pragmatic. Radient leans towards Kaladin as well but once the Adolin decision is made she upholds it.  The 1/3 "Shallan" part that does choose him is based in need for stability and lust. 

This isn't going to end well for them both unless something drastically changes.

That's not to say that this won't be the basis for their struggles in future - and that's fine. Whose to say that this superficial relationship can't deepen in next couple books. I'm just really really  unhappy about the journey to this point of the destination. 

Its like watching a cooking show where the promised objective is to make a lovely steak dinner and by the time the show is over all they have done is boil water for Mac n cheese...what???....why did I watch this? 

I have to hope this is not the complete resolution for these people's interactions with each other - it just doesn't make sense. 

[PhineasGage]

2 minutes ago, Darvys said:

hopefully the trainwreck that is their marriage will be a good learning experience.

Wow that's depressing  Now they are married I would definitely rather they worked it out. But 

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Another thing, which really makes me dislike him is the almost cult-like worship of his character, that is being practiced. It makes me feel like people seem to get something, that I don't get. I get it. He's a nice guy. And?

Yeah - I feel this way too. Its happening over in the Mayalaran thread and I feel like I must have read 3 different books sometimes!

@SLNC I agree very much with your post as a whole. As a result, I also agree with the sentiments shared by @mariapapadia although I disagree that the destination was ok

 

49 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

I didn't want Shallan and Kaladin to end up together. Half way through the book I was still undecided on who I prefer and then the whole Kholinar bussiness happened and I was only thinking "God, this girl really needs a therapist, not a relationship".

Now I was definitely in the Shalladin camp but I did feel the same way as you did - she was so fragile and seems to be using Adolin to buttress herself. Even if he is the better bet long term, its hardly fair to put all the pressure on another person because when you falter, they feel responsible.

18 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I don't think most people here are upset about the fact that main female character and main male character didn't end up together.  It's that a dynamic was built up throughout almost two books, and then suddenly "solved" in a the blink of an eye in a way that didn't follow the previous development.  To use your analogy, if you just replace the last pages of a script without totally rewriting the whole script, you end up with a story that doesn't hang together.  Unfortunately, that seems to be what happened here. 

I agree completely. If there had been no significant movement in Shalladin but there had been serious strides taken with Shadolin then I think most of the discontent voiced in this thread would disappear. But we got sections like this:

Quote

Nobody could see her. Had anyone ever seen her? She stopped on the street corner, wearing shifting faces and clothing enjoying the sense of freedom, clothed yet naked skin shivering at the wind's kiss.

This is from chapter 77 (emphasis mine). So as we all know Kaladin is heavily aligned with the wind, indeed he is likened to the wind and the wind is used as a placeholder for him in loads of places elsewhere in the books. I actually made a note to myself regarding this whole scene where there are loads of references to the storm and wind though I wont list them all here. I thought this was almist too heavy handed as an element of foreshadowing - but at the end she goes and runs away to Adolin, and the decision occurs in an eyeblink. I happened to have a page turn and thought I must have missed some pages! That is the thing that annoys me - all I wanted was something to get behind and I felt so let down.

 

19 minutes ago, Arch said:

edit: I just think there needs to at the very least be some closure for me to accept Adolin and Shallan. ''I'm an artist, Adolin. I appreciate a nice picture when I see one'', come on... is this a joke??

Especially as she has explicitly compared Adolin to a fine sculpture in WoR!

8 minutes ago, brandondash said:

Sure are a lot of people in this thread who are ignoring that there are two more books to go.

No, I think we've simply acknowledged that there is no point overworking the possible outcomes. We can be disappointed with the handling of a section, even if it isn't finished.

5 minutes ago, Egomere said:

Well to be fair he still might... I mean I'm not entirely sure how it would work but if he is able to revive Mara? eventually he could become and edgedancer (was Mara an edgedancer's blade previously? If he does revive her and that allows him to start on the path of a radient

Pretty sure this is WoB and there is good evidence in the canon of OB anyway. Personally I'm not convinced he'd become a Radiant, even if he does awaken her.

3 minutes ago, Oberyn said:

No more intimacy, no opening of secrets, no real talking about the Kaladin situation unless you count the end which I think sounded just weird.

This is definitely true - if anything they are less emotionally intimate - Shallan was genuine and sincere (as was Adolin) in the "poop" scene in WOR - and they felt like they had a proper connection there even though it was so early in their relationship. It did get nauseating at times in WoR but she is much less sappy with him - I mean she basically initiates the whole 'get Sadeas into a duel with Adolin' plan - and if she'd carried on in that vein I'd have been so much happier.

3 minutes ago, Darvys said:

hopefully the trainwreck that is their marriage will be a good learning experienc

Wow this is depressing. I mean, I suppose at least if it is a trainwreck this would be a single bright spot

3 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Adolin seeking to break it off (now wouldn't that be interesting?)

Personally I think this would definitely be the most interesting aspect of a potential breakdown. I suspect that Adolin will have much less agency in their relationship than Shallan because a) she's a Radiant and b ) he is the more selfless. and c) he feels he needs to support her and will likely do what she wants, rather than do what he wants. I can definitely see this getting old - especially if she undermines him in some way. We've seen her be (very occasionally) a bit patronising to Adolin and if she does that in public now he is highprince then his political position is deeply undermined.

 

6 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Regardless of which of the above events were to occur, my problem with all of them, with the expectation that Shallan and Kaladin is revisited, is that no matter what, Kaladin gets to end up being Shaman's "second choice".  The runner up.  

So I do disagree with you here. As someone who could be called a 'serial monogamist', choosing a different partner at a different stage in your life does not automatically make your later choices worse. Usually, (in my experience anyway) the choices get better because you learn more about what you are looking for in a partner. 

2 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

Changing my mind on Wax's choices felt natural as the build up to those choices felt very natural. 

I agree - I felt exactly the same way and went through the same change of heart as you describe.

 

3 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

I thought - maybe their interaction after she finds out about Heleran...but no she immediately shoves that aside and then dismisses it as 'he was just doing his job.' This would seem like a super mature rational stance to take. I can see Jasnah responding like this and actually meaning it. Mature, super rational - words I don't think anyone can really use to describe Shallan at this point. Instead we get bouts of unexplainable rudeness/cruelty towards Kaladin (unresolved issues much?) 

Yes I agree - her "festering" issues that she shoves to the back of her brain boil out and poor Kaladin tends to get the brunt of them. He doesn't seem to mind that much. I wonder if Adolin would have been so stoic had their positions been reversed?

4 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

Not only is much of his own character issues not dealt with (wandering eyes/ big fish little pond swap/ self styled murderer...) he has now entered a relationship where his primary role will be support staff for a girl (she's what supposed to be barely 18?) who has MASSIVE mental health issues that he has no idea how to deal with and he is flying blind in not knowing her history or where these issues are coming from and she shows no inclination to tell him. The fact that the only thing she CONSIDERS  telling him about is the Ghostbloods and she can't even do that as her "primary aspect....

Agreed - I think Adolin would actually be great as "support staff" but Shallan needs more than support, she needs a whole wing of a psych hospital to herself at this point. I must say, I'd love to give you an upvote but I've run out today  I'll try to remember to send you one when they refresh.

[mariapapadia]

4 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

Its like watching a cooking show where the promised objective is to make a lovely steak dinner and by the time the show is over all they have done is boil water for Mac n cheese...what???....why did I watch this? 

My food metaphor was : don't promise me perfect italian oven pizza, only to give me frozen cheap one  but I decided on the boat/sweaty bus journey. 

[Elena]

17 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Adolin seeking to break it off (now wouldn't that be interesting?)

It really would. I would love to see Shallan and Adolin go through mariage issues brought about by Adolin realising some things need to change and not by Shallan's issues. That could really do wonders to turn their relationship into something more mature, and also Adolin deserves some appreciation.

[mariapapadia]

3 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

 

@SLNC I agree very much with your post as a whole. As a result, I also agree with the sentiments shared by @mariapapadia although I disagree that the destination was ok

You know how sometimes you want to go to the seaside, but you end up in the forest? I like both, sometimes I'm more in the mood for one or the other, but it the end I just wanna have a good time. I think it's time for me to stop with the metaphors 

[PhineasGage]

16 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

You know how sometimes you want to go to the seaside, but you end up in the forest? I like both, sometimes I'm more in the mood for one or the other, but it the end I just wanna have a good time. I think it's time for me to stop with the metaphors 

Don't stopping your metaphors should be like stopping a highstorm. Ok so that was a simile.... but you get the idea. And I know what you mean, I think in this case it was more that I wanted to go to the forest and ended up at the seaside and you were going the other way, so we perhaps crossed paths somewhere  

[brandondash]

14 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

No, I think we've simply acknowledged that there is no point overworking the possible outcomes. We can be disappointed with the handling of a section, even if it isn't finished.

In that case let me respectfully yet vociferously disagree with the majority of voices in this thread. Shallan and Kaladin don't know each other. They have a confusing connection due to a single day of intense stress and shared secrets. That isn't a relationship, romantic or otherwise. So many comments here talk about their story fizzling or not going anywhere. That's because there was no story. There was three years of fans obsessing over what might happen.

Adolin and Shallan have had days, weeks, and months in each other's company. They have had huge amounts of time and interaction that we don't see because it wasn't explicitly written. They have a real relationship.

Yes, Shallan sometimes gets caught up in Kaladin's wake. As near as I can figure everyone gets caught up in Kaladin's wake (except perhaps the Kholin women). Literally every character in the series who has met Kaladin has been greatly affected in one way or another. At no point did I ever take "Shaladin" seriously, and I am more than a little surprised that so many people did/do.

[DeployParachute]

29 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

So I do disagree with you here. As someone who could be called a 'serial monogamist', choosing a different partner at a different stage in your life does not automatically make your later choices worse. Usually, (in my experience anyway) the choices get better because you learn more about what you are looking for in a partner. 

But of course, I agree with you intellectually.  I even had this same thought and argument with myself as I was typing that out.  But in the end, I put what I put because that is how I feel, and will readily admit that that feeling is painted by my own personal experience.  I think I would feel better about them being able to get together later so long as there was a bit more parity, i.e. both Shallan and Kaladin getting opportunities to explore more about what they are looking for in a long term partner.  Problem with that line of thinking though is that I do not see another love interest being introduced for Kaladin in the rest of the 5 book arc, if at all.  So, while logically, I conclude that you are absolutely correct, it unfortunately does nothing for how I feel about it right now.  I dunno, I still consider myself recovering from the fallout of this triangle, ask me again in a week  

[Phalanx]

So many good comments, I ran out of reputation and am not allowed to give any more today! I want to thumbs up almost all of you. Perfectly expressing how I feel about this.

It's the execution that was so sloppy. It was ridiculously bad, and honestly even if it's a "bait & switch" that will be reversed in the next 2 books somehow, that doesn't make this ending ok. That's just cheap writing, you can put any words you want down on a page. The tricky part is *justifying* those words through making your characters behave realistically, like humans.

And as for the discussion on "tropes," I'm just going to leave this here:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreTools

Just because something is a "trope" doesn't mean that subverting it is automatically a good thing or good writing. The subversion *can* be a good thing, but it requires good writing just as much as playing it straight would.

[Arch]

17 minutes ago, brandondash said:

In that case let me respectfully yet vociferously disagree with the majority of voices in this thread. Shallan and Kaladin don't know each other. They have a confusing connection due to a single day of intense stress and shared secrets. That isn't a relationship, romantic or otherwise. So many comments here talk about their story fizzling or not going anywhere. That's because there was no story. There was three years of fans obsessing over what might happen.

Adolin and Shallan have had days, weeks, and months in each other's company. They have had huge amounts of time and interaction that we don't see because it wasn't explicitly written. They have a real relationship.

Yes, Shallan sometimes gets caught up in Kaladin's wake. As near as I can figure everyone gets caught up in Kaladin's wake (except perhaps the Kholin women). Literally every character in the series who has met Kaladin has been greatly affected in one way or another. At no point did I ever take "Shaladin" seriously, and I am more than a little surprised that so many people did/do.

The thing is the book itself disagrees with you...
''Radiant said. “We’ve been dancing around a decision for months, ever since those days we spent in the chasms with Stormblessed. I’ve begun to consider that a relationship between two Knights Radiant is likely to accomplish a more equitable union.”

The book tries to says that most of the characters involved took it seriously the entire time, but to me it only really showed in Adolin. The fact that this ''struggle'' was barely shown at all and culminated in just a couple glances is my complaint. Neither of them ever even acknowledged to eachother what was going on... IF this is the end then it was really clumsly done and inevitably pointless, imo.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Arch

[Dreamstorm]

2 minutes ago, brandondash said:

In that case let me respectfully yet vociferously disagree with the majority of voices in this thread. Shallan and Kaladin don't know each other. They have a confusing connection due to a single day of intense stress and shared secrets. That isn't a relationship, romantic or otherwise. So many comments here talk about their story fizzling or not going anywhere. That's because there was no story. There was three years of fans obsessing over what might happen.

Adolin and Shallan have had days, weeks, and months in each other's company. They have had huge amounts of time and interaction that we don't see because it wasn't explicitly written. They have a real relationship.

Yes, Shallan sometimes gets caught up in Kaladin's wake. As near as I can figure everyone gets caught up in Kaladin's wake (except perhaps the Kholin women). Literally every character in the series who has met Kaladin has been greatly affected in one way or another. At no point did I ever take "Shaladin" seriously, and I am more than a little surprised that so many people did/do.

I don't think it's this at all (at least for the vast majority of the posts.)  I think if after Part 1, Kaladin came back and he and Shallan settled into a friendship role - without the tons of text spent on her attraction to him, and trying to compartmentalize it, and confusion over how she feels, all of which happens right up until the very end (you say there was no story, but Sanderson wrote these elements into almost every scene in the book with the three of them) - then I think people who liked the idea of what might happen between Shallan and Kaladin would have been disappointed with the direction the story took, but you wouldn't see the reaction you see here.  I, like many people here have said, actually like Shallan together with Adolin, so I would have been happy with a well-crafted storyline that ended up with the exact same outcome we have here.  BUT instead we got something which seemed to be running in one direction (and wasting a lot of text) to just get slammed into a neat little conclusion that feels inconsistent with the prior storyline.

Btw, I think you are absolutely right that Shallan and Kaladin don't know each other.  But I haven't heard anyone arguing that Shallan should have took Adolin's "out" and ran to Kaladin and immediately started a serious relationship.  I would be just as annoyed with that ending.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, brandondash said:

That's because there was no story.

Obviously there was, since it is a significant part of Oathbringer.

22 minutes ago, brandondash said:

Yes, Shallan sometimes gets caught up in Kaladin's wake. As near as I can figure everyone gets caught up in Kaladin's wake (except perhaps the Kholin women). Literally every character in the series who has met Kaladin has been greatly affected in one way or another.

Yes, let us discount the fact, that she was thinking of him when he wasn't even there (Part 1 Oathbringer), was coming up with nicknames for him ("Brightlord Brooding-Eyes"), was keeping track of him (we always learned of his reports to Urithiru through Shallan. Why not Dalinar as his commanding officer?), absently drew a pristine picture of him manifesting creationspren, had to actively repress the knowledge that Kaladin killed Helaran, because she didn't want to connect Kaladin with it. But yes, absolutely no connection at all. Just getting caught up in his "wake".

5 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

like many people here have said, actually like Shallan together with Adolin, so I would have been happy with a well-crafted storyline that ended up with the exact same outcome we have here.

For the record, I don't really. I think they are bland and I have, in my eyes, very justified fears that it stays that way, but if it changes? I'm more than open to it.

But even I as a Shalladin shipper have concluded, that Shallan just wasn't ready for any relationship. I would have liked a resolution, where she would have took time for herself, to sort herself out first. Maybe Adolin helped her in that moment, being the right person in the right place, but I fear, that he isn't the right person in the long term.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SLNC