rdog2213

[OB] - The Cosmeric implications of Oathbringer's ending

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Dalinar has, or is in the process of, reforming Honor and is its new vessel - I believe we have some WoB that this is possible but very difficult. The "something different" and "we killed you" details seem like they dispute this but either one could be interpreted to support it. Syl claiming that the perpendicularity is Honor's does seem to support this however. Another possibility is that he has somehow accumulated enough of Honor's Investiture to become something like a mini-sliver like a Herald or above.

I don't take credit for this as I read it somewhere else, but is it possible that in reforming a shattered shard he can change it's intent from Honor to Unity?

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I'm leaning towards #3 myself. When Odium saw what was happening he reacted with shock and perhaps even fear. That shouldn't happen if it was just Honor recoalessing. Odium has at least three notches on his belt, if a Shard he had already killed reformed around a new user who probably wasn't as used to commanding the Power as someone who had been doing it for eons Odium might be shocked or upset but I sought he would recoil like he did. Unity is something more. 

Add to that the fact that in chapter 54 of the WoK Hoid just name dropped Adonalsium out of nowhere seemingly just to see if Dali are recognized the term, followed by talking about what would happen if you pulled someone apart and put them back together in a rather obvious metaphor for the the Shattering and what it would mean to possibly stich Big A back up. Why would he mention that to Dalinar out of the blue? 

And the Stormfather having no clue about the visions of warm light Dalinar has os also weird. If it was just Honor's power reforming you think Honor's own cognative shadow would be able to sense *something*. But if it's Adonalsium related it makes sense the Stormfather is oblivious: such power is waaay beyond him. 

Edited by Zalocx
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On 11/18/2017 at 0:00 PM, Judsing99 said:

I had a different thought while reading this. There's a point in the book where Dalinar hears "Unite Them" and he asks the Stormfather if it was him who spoke. The Stormfather claims it wasn't him and Dalinar begins to wonder if he's going crazy hearing voices in his head. This experience, along with the use of the capital A in Ascension, leads me to wonder if a shadow/remnant of Honor himself is the one telling Dalinar to Unite them. And although we suspect that 'them' refers to the people of Roshar, what if it was Honor whispering to unite the splinters of his shard. He is a bondsmith that has the power of cohesion, which hasn't been fully explored, so there's a possibility that he could use his powers of uniting to renew the shard of Honor, or as someone shared earlier, perhaps bring the splinters together to form a new shard, Unity.

I like where this is going.  Dalinar picks up a bunch of Investiture off the Roshar system most of Honor, and then a chunk of Odium and Cultivation which creates the new Shard Unity.  This aligns Adonalisium could have broken into a different set of Shards.

On a completely different note, could Dalinar make Kel a new body in the physical realm that doesn't require spikes?

Edited by lordofsoup
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22 hours ago, emailanimal said:

When I read this, I thought "HIM" in the "I PROVIDE FOR HIM A WEAPON" referred to Honor.  Basically, Cultivation has a very different way of fighting this battle, but what she does is "grows" the people who will fight Odium (see, Lift and Taravangian as other examples, although the latter requires a separate conversation).  So, I took the phrase to mean "I am preparing you to be Honor's weapon".

But you may be right, this may be Cultivation's understanding of the gamble and the fact that Dalinar is in the danger of becoming Odium's weapon.

Very much want to see more of Cultivation. 

Honor is long dead, dead for good. a shard need cenury to fully die in nothingness.

Dalinar is the chosen champion of odium, C. had better skill, to honor, to see in the future, and six years after is a pittance for a god, so she should be know. for save the world dalinar need to stand against the allure of odium, the man go the the nightwatcher cannot withstand the assault of the pain, he need to grow a better person, and only remove that memory can help become the champion can challenge odium and don't swap side. only after become that man dalinar need face the memory to learn how control the pain, how bind the emotion.

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I’m inclined to believe that Dalinar is a Bondsmith of the highest level, but unlike all Bondsmiths before him, he has bonded the stormfather after the death of Honor. The stormfather is in part a Spren/splinter/holder of Honors power. This means that as Dalinar progresses through the 5 ideals and strengthens his bond with the stormfather he also is strengthening his connection to honor. This could mean that Dalinar just might Ascend upon completion of the 5th ideal as the most worthy candidate of Honor. 

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I with Dalinar reforming Adonolisium. There is another quote from that chapter right after he combines the three realms along the lines of "Odium seemed small now" that could point to him uniting Adonalisium as he's the only thing bigger than a shard

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Hmmm you mean the Unite them wasn't talking about the Rosharian People or even the three realms but potentially talking about the very Shards themselves?

or maybe just the three on Roshar to become like Harmony? I would place money on the fact that he takes Honour's power but overides it to Unity intent but maybe in the future he can do so with Odium and Cultivation as well?...

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My thought process when I read that went "Okay so Dalinar just united the three Realms, what's he gonna unite next? Honor? Adonalsium? The Cosmere's fashion sense?"

It seemed like a fairly obvious place to go. Maybe too obvious, or premature, but it was the first thing I thought of.

 

Thoughts on that persistent Unite them whisper being similar to Shardic Intent?

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I had another thought today that I've worked into a theory. We know that the cosmere will have an overarching theme throughout all of Sanderson's cosmere works. We have some confirmation from Brandon that Adonalsium once had an enemy (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=979#85), which must still exist somewhere. This leads me to believe that there must be some conflict with that being that can only be solved through the different shards working together in some way. Unfortunately, as long as there are shards, there will also be conflict. Each holder of the shard, no matter their initial intention, will eventually become like the characteristic that the shard embodies. They only way to truly balance out the power is to unite the shards of differing natures to find a neutral ground, like Harmony has done with Ruin and Preservation. My theory is that perhaps the words whispered to Dalinar, "Unite Them", comes from a more ancient source than we realized. It could have potentially come from a remnant of Adonalsium himself, telling Dalinar to unite all of his shards together. Only then will all of the shards be neutralized and balanced by the shards of opposite natures. With a restored Adonlsium, a fight against the enemy of the cosmere would again be possible. Perhaps Brandon is sneaking this in the story as a suggestion to further set course for the cosmere as a whole. I know this is a bit of a stretch, but with Brandon, pretty much anything is possible.

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We know there were sprens before the shards arrived on Roshar, presumably sprens of Adonalsium... so maybe there was something more hiding on Roshar :D

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The capitalization of Unity made me think it was possible that Dalinar was forming a new Shard at the time. The whole exchange reminded me of the infamous line in Mistborn. 

Spoiler

I am hope.

I'm interested to see where this will go. There were a lot of hints along the way that something besides the Stormfather has been steering Dalinar. Unite them, the warmth, the light...he's either receiving signals directly from the remnants of Honor or possibly the remnants of Adonalsium. But a Unity Shard has been theorized in the past, and the capitalization of the word seems like it could be significant. 

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I feel like Cultivation set Dalinar up to resist Odium.  I think the warm visions are given by her to encourage him to continue to become better.  Its also possible they come from the Spiritual realm, like Szeth's voices.

Brandon says that Mistborn and Stormlight are critical to the Cosmere.  I can see Stormlight teaching us how to remake shards, attack shards (Odium), or even creating the one Shard to Unite them all.  Cultivation could be cultivating her fellow shard to form a new Intent that fits what she needs.  Between Dalinar and potentially Renarin I think she is in it for the long game.

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On 11/17/2017 at 11:01 AM, taxilian said:

Ascending seems to indicate that you take up enough of a shard to hit a certain point (arbitrary? specific? relative? no idea).

I'd venture a guess it's somewhere over 9000 :-P Dalinar's "super saiyan" moment was by far the best moment of the book in my opinion, but it does raise some important questions.

On Sel, it seems that Odium tried to splinter the shards there in such a way that they couldn't be put back together, and Dominion and Devotion are now broken into various sentient beings like spren, and in one massive interwoven force called the Dor.  That doesn't seem to be the case on Roshar, where there was intentional self-splintering by Honor (and Cultivation and Odium), and his death/splintering by Odium doesn't seem to have caused any Investiture-blending with another Shard.

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Questioner

Can it be restored? The splinters

Brandon Sanderson

Um, splinters, can they be restored to... So it is, that is a yes, but restoring them will not restore Honor, the vessel of Honor, right. They would restore Honor the Shard if this were to happen, but a new vessel would have to take it.

This leads me to believe that Dalinar is becoming the new vessel for the Shard that was Honor, and this is what "unite them" (the splinters of Honor) has been referring to - Theory One is my vote for now! =)

Awesome synthesis of information @rdog2213!

Edited by VirtuousTraveller
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Made me wonder whether Adonalsium, rather than being just a name, translated to Alethi, means "unity"

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You need to remember that what Dalinar has done is "SOMETHING DIFFERENT". Just reforging Honor is going back the same old same old. Unity is new. I think it is combined of Honor/Odium/Cultivation. Remember how Honor is so bound to oaths even if the oath itself is not honorable any more. Odium and Cultivation have their own failings that need to be tempered.

Plus, we are back to the 3 again. Triplets abound in this story. Love triangles, shards, realms, Shallan's personalities, parshmen/listeners/singers.  But now they are all different than before. We don't want an Oathpact that places the world into a circle of growth and destruction. We want a new model that lets everyone share this world.

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There's a couple interesting quotes in OB that may allude to the God Beyond perhaps taking a more active role in helping Dalinar Ascend to something larger even than a Shard.

I wouldn't think Dalinars constant usage of the word "Beyond" to describe both his belief in divinity and his vision of light is either accidental or trivial.

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Oathbringer 28 - Another Option

“I have felt warmth,” Dalinar said, “coming from a place beyond. A light I can almost see. If there is a God, it was not the Almighty, the one who called himself Honor. He was a creature. Powerful, but still merely a creature.”

 

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Oathbringer 4 - Oaths

“Honor might be dead, but I have felt … something else. Something beyond. A warmth and a light. It is not that God has died, it is that the Almighty was never God.

 

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I hung between realms, seeing into Shadesmar—the realm of the spren—and beyond.

Oathbringer preface, chapter 5 

 

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Oathbringer 107 - Honors Path

“I think there must be something beyond. I asked you before, what did worship look like before Vorinism? What did—”

 

 

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On 11/18/2017 at 10:00 AM, Judsing99 said:

 He is a bondsmith that has the power of cohesion, which hasn't been fully explored

Bondsmiths don’t have cohesion. They have tension and adhesion. 

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My current working [cosmere] theory is that over the course of the next few decades, as Brandon’s vision turns into brilliant fictional reality, the theme of Dalinar uniting things will be repeatedly reinvented and expanded until he ultimately unites all 16 shards into a new Adonalsium.  For now, I think it’s correct to think that it just means unite the humans/parsh.

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Could the dragons be involved?  Could hoids letter somehow have changed the recipients mind? Could that be the source of the golden light?

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It is interesting that Unity could likely be the name for Honour, Devotion, and Dominion mixed together. Maybe Dalinar is able to pull at other discarded powers as well? Unlikely, but an odd coincidence. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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12 hours ago, Hiadin Haloun said:

Could the dragons be involved?  Could hoids letter somehow have changed the recipients mind? Could that be the source of the golden light?

It would certainly be interesting if at least one of them is interfering, if only by speaking to Dalinar's mind. It would be hilarious if Frost is actually trying to help, and just not letting Hoid know about it. I'm actually somewhat inclined to believe that's in line with what limited insight we have to his personality. Maybe.

My other imagining for the moment is that the voice could be Dysians. We don't know much about them, but I have this vague inkling of them being able to speak to minds (too tired to look right now). They may have an agenda for all that's going on with Roshar right now.

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I don’t think Dalinar is reforming Adonalsium, but i do think, per some other comments throughout the Cosmere, that he is reforming “Honor” but with a slightly different intent. We know it takes millennia for a shard to change its holder, so this vessel (dalinar) who has been focused for awhile on unification, is filtering the remnants of Honor through a different intent. And i think that, in agreement with some of the above, that Cultivation has been “growing” him toward being a prepared vessel—like y’all said: playing a very very long game. Biding her time. 

I think Cultivation will be a poignant foil for Odium, but probably one he’s overlooked. She can cultivate what she needs, and has all the time in the world to do it. A little pruning here, a little there, and she has had 4000 years to do so. 

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On 11/21/2017 at 3:06 PM, Judsing99 said:

I had another thought today that I've worked into a theory. We know that the cosmere will have an overarching theme throughout all of Sanderson's cosmere works. We have some confirmation from Brandon that Adonalsium once had an enemy (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=979#85), which must still exist somewhere. This leads me to believe that there must be some conflict with that being that can only be solved through the different shards working together in some way. Unfortunately, as long as there are shards, there will also be conflict. Each holder of the shard, no matter their initial intention, will eventually become like the characteristic that the shard embodies. They only way to truly balance out the power is to unite the shards of differing natures to find a neutral ground, like Harmony has done with Ruin and Preservation. My theory is that perhaps the words whispered to Dalinar, "Unite Them", comes from a more ancient source than we realized. It could have potentially come from a remnant of Adonalsium himself, telling Dalinar to unite all of his shards together. Only then will all of the shards be neutralized and balanced by the shards of opposite natures. With a restored Adonlsium, a fight against the enemy of the cosmere would again be possible. Perhaps Brandon is sneaking this in the story as a suggestion to further set course for the cosmere as a whole. I know this is a bit of a stretch, but with Brandon, pretty much anything is possible.

I thought it was confirmed that the "force" that "opposed Adonalsium" was simply the people who Shattered it.

 

Edit: Found the wob I was thinking of https://wob.coppermind.net/events/10-calamity-chicago-signing/#e6551

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Eric

In Secret History we learn the 16 Shards that Shattered Adonalsium. Was that done [on behalf of the anti-Adonalsium force]?

Brandon Sanderson

You’re focusing too much on this idea of an anti-Adonalsium. It—the original question I believe that was asked me was “is there a force that is opposed to Adonalsium” and it left me a lot of wiggle room. In other words, the people who killed Adonalsium, you could say were a force, any person who opposed Adonalsium... What they were trying to get was a “devil” but to do that you must assume Adonalsium was a more Christian-style God, and I haven’t confirmed any of that.

 

So, not exactly *confirmed*. But heavily implied.

Edited by 8giraffe8
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What about the shining thing that Dalinar plunges into the Oathgate when he runs from Jah Keved? From memory it seemed to be distinct from a shardblade in its description,  at least Dalinar didn't know what it was. Could this have been a splinter Dalinar took, forcibly, from the Stormfather's possession? 

So beyond just his bond to the Stormfather linking him to Honor's body, it seems he might have already held a part of it. This could be where he gained enough investure to create the perpendicularity. 

 

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Perhaps Unity is a Cosmeric force like Passion or Connection or Identity, and Odium is saying that he and the others of the 16 killed Unity in Shattering Adonalsium.

There might be some weight to the Dalinar-Adonalsium-connection theory, in part because of Hoid's mention of Adonalsium to Dalinar in Book One. 

Also, if Dalinar is Unity and Kel is Hope, who else do we have?

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