Blood Weakness

[Humph]

Renarin Kholin has a "blood weakness".  As far as I can tell, the exact nature of Renarin's weakness is nowhere directly specified.

 

However, at first glance, it seems to be of a type somewhat along the lines of a general weakness coupled with episodes of seizure, either random in occurrence or possibly in response to strong emotional stimuli.  Either case (random or strong stimuli) would be consonant with Dalinar's refusal to let Renarin into battle.  In this interpretation, the weakness would generally be viewed as a physical one.

 

I am taken with another direction of thought though.  What is this weakness is primarily a mental (or cognitive) one, and only secondarily a physical one?

 

Couple that with another idea -- that the "blood" weakness of Renarin is not simply related to his individual condition.  "Blood" can have the meaning of "bloodline" --- meaning that the weakness that Renarin has exists throughout the Kholin family, i.e. that it is hereditary.  Renarin perhaps exhibits it most strongly, or at least in a more public way.

 

• Gavilar started acting in ways not understood by those around him at the end of his life.  He experiences/believes/understands something about the Parshendi that no one else can.  His daughter describes him as seeing deep inside her on the day he died.
• Davilar starts acting in ways not understood by Adolin and others.  He develops a fascination with the Way of Kings.  He experiences visions directing him towards preparing for apocalyptic times.  He is described by Kaladin as having the same sort of deep penetrating look.
• Elhokar acts as a weak king and is talked of as suffering paranoia.  He appears to be able to see Cryptics.
• Jasnah gives the illusion of being in control.  But we know from her time on the ship that something haunts and/or terrifies her.  The description of this in the chapter immediately brought to my mind Dalinar and his struggles in understanding his visions.  I find it very plausible that Jasnah herself has experienced visions; visions that don't necessarily say "unite them" so much as "teach them now because the time is short".  She certainly believes that spren are directing folks (e.g. Shallan) to her.
• Renarin is widely speculated to be bonded to a spren, hence his reluctance to accept sharplate (along the lines of Kaladin's sense of un-fitness to do so as well).
• Adolin gives little indication of strange behavior -- except we finally get a glimpse of how he treats his shardblade, almost as if he can dialogue with it.  [OK, he also has the ritual of Shinovar Fried Chicken but let's give him a pass on that unless he did not order the Original Recipe].

In short, a case can be made that each one with Kholin blood (which is why we exclude Navani) has special relationships (abilities/powers/hauntings/visions) with the Cognitive and/or Spiritual realms.  These relationships can have an effect on the ability of the person to act properly in the physical realm (e.g. Dalinar's sudden loss of the Thrill in battle), and so could be seen by an outsider similar to an epileptic fit.  Hence "weakness".

 

In short the case can be made that this blood weakness seems to be a hereditary phenomenon.  It seems to have its focus on times of Desolation.  Perhaps the Kholin blood acts like Kharbranth's bells, giving warning not of approaching Highstorms, but of approaching Desolations.

 

This would raise another interesting question, as to whether other families might have similar bloodline abilities, although not necessarily having their trigger related to "Warning: Desolation Approaching".  (They could have "Yippee!! Odium is Finally Coming Back!").  Could Shallan's family have something of this sort?

 

 

 

 

[GroundPetrel]

I have to say that Renarin is a LOT like me.  He's intelligent, a geek, seems to have mild ADHD, and suffers from a poorly-understood disorder that causes moderate to severe seizures.  

 

I personally hope that Brandon writes Renarin as having Tourette's Syndrome.  I'll admit that I'm biased, as I have severe TS, which causes issues for me in certain situations of extreme emotional and physical stress.  

 

But it'd be a cool explanation.  Plus, it's a congenital neurological disorder.  Fits the criteria...  

[Crysanja]

Dalinar think he can help Renarin over his bloodweakness with the Shardplate.

this seems much less likely if Renarin would have more then a physical issues/weakness?

 

if Renarin would have long seizures, he wouldnt be able to fight, even with a Shardplate.

 

 

i guess he might fight with a Shardplate if he had seizures because of physical extorsion, this could be mitigated greatly by the Plate.

[Two McMillion]

I got the impression that Renarin's problem was some hybrid of hemophilia and epilepsy, personally.

[Xavien]

I always thought blood weakness referred to Renarin being a severe hemophiliac. If that is the case even minor injuries on the battlefield could be life threatening and just practicing with a sword would be difficult as he would also bruise very easily.  A simple hit to the head with a wooden practice sword could cause brain bleeding. With shardplate these concerns are greatly diminished, Sadeas was on the ground being pummeled for quite some time by a swarm of Parshendi and came away with only very minor injuries.

 

Not as cool or grand as the above theories I know

 

Edit: Ninja'd. Don't think it would be both hemophilia and epilepsy.  Brain bleeding can cause seizures.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Xavien

[nelkins]

My assumption is that the bloodvweakness will be revealed to be spren/bond related.  I was just re-reading the section of WoK where Dalinar and his sons come to the decision to study his visions to determine whether or not they were real.

 

 

Renarin came back, his face pale. He looked to be having one of his episodes of weakness; indeed, his legs were trembling. As soon as Dalinar took the cup, the youth sat down in a chair and rested his head in his hands." WoK p.733

 

I feel like a lot of descriptions of using stormlight leave the user exhausted, so his weakness may be a result of a secret spren bond that he has and has not told anyone about.  Just a thought.

[Swimmingly]

I think you're taking a good amount of character flaws or just details and attributing them to supernatural causes. I don't think Jasnah's guilt or Adolin's talking to his Blade are too weird. Jasnah has lived through some stuff. And have you ever seen the kind of rituals hockey goalies go through? Eat this, tap the bars, wear the special socks... next to some athletes I know (including myself sometimes), Adolin's quirks are downright sane and rational.

[Humph]

I think you're taking a good amount of character flaws or just details and attributing them to supernatural causes. I don't think Jasnah's guilt or Adolin's talking to his Blade are too weird. Jasnah has lived through some stuff. And have you ever seen the kind of rituals hockey goalies go through? Eat this, tap the bars, wear the special socks... next to some athletes I know (including myself sometimes), Adolin's quirks are downright sane and rational.

 

Adolin is the weakest link in the hypothesis, as there exists scanty evidence of a special attraction or affinity to Spren/the cognitive realm.  In the context of the theory I would say Jasnah is less certain, although I would hesitate to call it a weakness in the theory.  We know that she has had some traumatic experience in the past, and that could be an explanation for her spren capacity rather than bloodline inheritance.  I have postulated the existence of visions to explain her terror and dread, which I don't think is implausible, although it could also be explained by her in-depth research.  However, it appears to me to strike too personal a note with Jasnah to be explainable simply by reading of dusty tomes.

 

When we look at the family as a whole though, they seem to be drawing an inordinate amount of attention from spren and/or higher beings.  While this could be occuring elsewhere in Roshar we haven't seen evidence of other families having this trait.  Hence my thought that this trait could be a result of some sort of bloodline inheritance.

[Moogle]

When we look at the family as a whole though, they seem to be drawing an inordinate amount of attention from spren and/or higher beings.  While this could be occuring elsewhere in Roshar we haven't seen evidence of other families having this trait.  Hence my thought that this trait could be a result of some sort of bloodline inheritance.

 

Is this really surprising? Spren apparently can choose who they want to bond with (Wyndle did), and it would be a very good idea for spren to bond with world leaders. The Kholin family is one of the most powerful groups of people in the world.

 

Even if it isn't the spren consciously choosing them, Dalinar and Gavilar's influence on their children likely has them being more honorable than most, making them more likely than most to attract a spren. I don't see any need to attribute any special qualities to the Kholin bloodline.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Moogle

[Beautor]

Is this really surprising? Spren apparently can choose who they want to bond with (Wyndle did), and it would be a very good idea for spren to bond with world leaders. The Kholin family is one of the most powerful groups of people in the world.

 

Even if it isn't the spren consciously choosing them, Dalinar and Gavilar's influence on their children likely has them being more honorable than most, making them more likely than most to attract a spren. I don't see any need to attribute any special qualities to the Kholin bloodline.

 

For once I completely agree with you Moogle. It's not surprising at all to see the children be affected by their parent's standards. Dalinar teaches his sons the way he thinks people should act, and because they respect him they adopt and develop similar qualities. I'm sure Gavilar and Navani did the same. Spren being attracted powerful people who fit the character criteria for a potential bond isn't a surprise at all.

[AerionBFII]

At first i thought this was Dalinars Curse, i think there is more than an illness going on here...

I hope lift uses her awesomeness to heal him 

Edited February 24, 2014 by WEZ313

[Humph]

Even if it isn't the spren consciously choosing them, Dalinar and Gavilar's influence on their children likely has them being more honorable than most, making them more likely than most to attract a spren. I don't see any need to attribute any special qualities to the Kholin bloodline.

 

If Elhokin and Jasnah were attracting Honorspren then your point would pack more punch.  However, it appears that neither does, undercutting the reasoning put forth.

 

I would also have difficulty in calling Jasnah an honorable person or being more honorable than most.  I would rather characterize her as determined and ruthless.

• She has contact and working relationships with about 6 or so different assassins, employing them on occasion to safeguard the Kholin family
• She has no qualms about frying a number of criminals outside the context of the law and established societal structures simply in order to give an academic lesson to Shallan.
• When Taravagnian desired her help in saving his granddaughter, we don't see Jasnah rushing off to help out of desire to save a life.  Rather, we see her negotiating a benefit to herself.  "I'll help you only if you do something for me.  Otherwise too bad your granddaughter is toast".  The daughter has been trapped for some time, as the architects have had time to calculate the weight of the stone, and Jasnah has had time to negotiate with the king.  [As an aside, I wouldn't be surprised if Jasnah herself collapsed the stone to put herself into a position to wrest this benefit from Mr. T].

I also can't see evidence that Elhokar is noted for the quality of his honor.

 

 

Is this really surprising? Spren apparently can choose who they want to bond with (Wyndle did), and it would be a very good idea for spren to bond with world leaders. The Kholin family is one of the most powerful groups of people in the world.

 

 

Actually, Wyndle wanted to bond with an Iri matron, but got directed to Lift instead.  This does show the possibility of an individual spren choosing to bond with a particular person, but it also shows that who they bond with is not always in their own control.  I also don't see why it is any better that the person is a world leader or not -- Lift is far from it for instance; and how about Ym? -- as the manifestation of Radiant powers will immediately be transformative in a Roshar-shaking way no matter the background of the individual.  And of course, Kaladin was a slave and as far from the top of the political mountain as anyone could be.

[Moogle]

If Elhokin and Jasnah were attracting Honorspren then your point would pack more punch.  However, it appears that neither does, undercutting the reasoning put forth.

 

There are multiple types of spren and variations on honor. Jasnah's was attracted to her because she was wise and careful, I imagine. I think she would have gotten that from the teachings of her parents - the effect Gavilar had on her on the night of the feast shows he was capable of influencing her. So much so that she was willing to hold back from assassinating someone just because she wasn't sure of what he was doing.

 

Jasnah is not typically honorable, but I find it difficult to say she isn't a 'good' person. She's working to save the entire world, she's helped remove murderers from Kharbranth, treats people with respect, and hires assassins to prevent them from killing her family members. We don't know why she was bothering with Elhokar's wife, so I don't think it reflects poorly on her. I find it doubtful she would have let Taravangian's niece die - but she did need access to the Palaneum in order to find information to help save the world, so if she could save someone and get what she needed, that's fine by me.

 

The only questionable person to have attracted a spren is Shallan, thus far. And she doesn't seem too bad to me, honestly.

 

 

Actually, Wyndle wanted to bond with an Iri matron, but got directed to Lift instead.  This does show the possibility of an individual spren choosing to bond with a particular person, but it also shows that who they bond with is not always in their own control.  I also don't see why it is any better that the person is a world leader or not -- Lift is far from it for instance; and how about Ym? -- as the manifestation of Radiant powers will immediately be transformative in a Roshar-shaking way no matter the background of the individual.  And of course, Kaladin was a slave and as far from the top of the political mountain as anyone could be.

 

I have an issue with you saying "but it also shows that who they bond with is not always in their own control". The Ring (evidently a group of spren) decided that Lift was important enough that she should be bonded with. This means they have tons of control. Syl betrayed her orders to not bond, I'm sure Wyndle could have done something similar if he felt it was important.

 

Of course it's more important for the bondee to be a world leader - spren have important information about the Desolations, bonding with them is amazingly useful.

 

And as for Syl bonding Kaladin... she wasn't thinking about to best be effective. Honorspren seem a bit lacking in that regard. They seem to care about bonding honorable people, rather than bonding people that would help the world. Which is yet another variation on honor. Other spren like Wyndle seem to think differently. I am not arguing that every spren will bond a world leader (I think political people will have a higher incidence of Cryptic bondings and have fewer Wyndle-spren), just that I think quite a few spren will try to bond world leaders because of the obvious benefits.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Moogle

[WitSpren]

Actually, Wyndle wanted to bond with an Iri matron, but got directed to Lift instead.  This does show the possibility of an individual spren choosing to bond with a particular person, but it also shows that who they bond with is not always in their own control.  I also don't see why it is any better that the person is a world leader or not -- Lift is far from it for instance; and how about Ym? -- as the manifestation of Radiant powers will immediately be transformative in a Roshar-shaking way no matter the background of the individual.  And of course, Kaladin was a slave and as far from the top of the political mountain as anyone could be.

Wyndal did want to bond with an Iri Matron, but he was encouraged to bond with Lift.   We don't know exactly how far the encouragement went.    That said, I have serious doubts of choosing the Iri Matron over Lift, to become a KR would have been wise or a better choice.    From what we have seen of Lift, she seems to be on the short track to be a pretty good choice.     Since we have not seen the Iri matron, it is hard specifically to say that she would have been a worse choice.    But on the surface it sounds worse.

 

 

As far as the "Blood Weekness" goes lets look at several examples that we have.

 

Kal was seeing and talking to Syl for a considerable time, and the other Slave Captives thought he was crazy.     Later he was using Stormlight for a considerable time before he finally realized what he was doing.

 

Lift also was talking to Wyndal in front of the other thieves and they thought she was crazy.

 

Elhokar and Shallan when they started seeing Cryptics really behaved strange, and no one could understand why.    Also look at Shallan's freekout when she hears the Voice asking strange things.

 

 

Both Jasna and Shallan both "went to" Shadesmar & made it back.     But we see this from their POV (in Shadesmar -  Cognative Relm), but how can we say what it would have looked like in the Physical Relm.    Prehaps it would have looked like a "Seazure" to someone that might have seen them.    We know that Jasna 6 years later, later in her training, was able to control her Physical Relm appearance so that people did not notice her spiritual side-trips.

 

 

Anyway, what I am getting at, is that with Renarin, we may just be seeing the Phisical Worlds manufestation of his initial "uncontrolled" visits to Shadesmar  or maybe a better "controlled" response to the Voice that he could be hearing, that no one else hears.

 

Or this could be a different result from him having a different "Surge.

[Cheese Ninja]

I thought it was anemia.  Possibly with added conditions, and no idea what the cause would be.  Renarin might need his blood Soulcast on occasion to function in a physically strenuous manner.

[Swimmingly]

You know, despite Jasnah saving Shallan, I'd never though about the possibilities of Soul casting for those with blood conditions.

[Cheese Ninja]

I've seen it mentioned on here before.  But I don't think it would fix any underlying causes of anemia, so he'd have to endure a fairly painful process on a semi-regular basis.
 

“Blood isn’t the same,” Jasnah said, waving her hand. “It’s one of the Essences. You’ll learn this, should I actually decide to teach you Soulcasting. For now, know that the pure form of an Essence is quite easy to make; the eight kinds of blood are easier to create than water, for instance. Creating something as complex as strawberry jam, however—a mush made from a fruit I’d never before tasted or smelled—was well beyond my abilities.”

 

Notably, there are 8 common blood types for humans, and several more rare types. A-, AB-, B-, O-, A+, AB+, B+, O+

[Swimmingly]

Still, it basically means that the upper crust of society (and probably a lot more once Surgebinders start popping up in the next few years) have access to something that could inhibit cancer, do a full-body blood transfusion, even Soulcast drugs into your blood directly. Imagine a Soulcaster who specialises in boosting people's blood with a cocktail of supersoldier drugs.

[IceBaka]

I've seen it mentioned on here before.  But I don't think it would fix any underlying causes of anemia, so he'd have to endure a fairly painful process on a semi-regular basis.

 

Notably, there are 8 common blood types for humans, and several more rare types. A-, AB-, B-, O-, A+, AB+, B+, O+

 

Based on what we've seen of Renarin so far, there is really no support that his condition is hemophilia.  I'm not sold on anemia, either, but at least some of his "symptoms" match up with what you would expect from anemia.  And anemia has dozens of possible causes -- some genetic, some environmental.  It could be that he is anemic as a result of some other condition, like leukemia.

 

Mini-rant about "common" v. "rare" blood types: Blood typing is simply a way for us to classify which self-antigens are present on red blood cells.  In reality there are hundreds of them, but most are only of interest to geneticists and molecular biologists.  In most cases, there are only three self-antigens that are clinically important, that is, important for blood donations and transfusions.  It is the presence (or absence) of those three that we use to derive the eight blood types you noted.  Other types aren't "rarer" in occurrence, they just don't matter as much on a daily basis, so we rarely hear about them.  However, you could use "common" and "rare" to describe the frequencies of the eight types you mention within a population.

 

I really hope the "eight kinds of blood" mentioned by Jasnah do not equate to the blood types that we use for medical purposes.  It would be kind of jarring for me to have the blood of Rosharan humans not differ in any significant way from Earth humans -- especially when so many of the other biological and ecological aspects of life on Roshar have been shown to differ because of the selective pressures caused by low gravity and regular highstorms.

[Swimmingly]

By that logic, Rosharians should be short and have shells.

[IceBaka]

By that logic, Rosharians should be short and have shells.

 

No, not really.  Evolutionary pressure does not drive every organism to develop the same adaptations.  More importantly, humans are not native to Roshar, and on a geological time scale they've only just arrived there.  The physical and ecological pressures of Roshar have had little influence on humans.

 

However, the Parshendi are native to Roshar.  In addition to their ability to

bind with spren

they have many anatomical and physiological differences from humans, despite the overall similarity in body form.  This isn't surprising given that they evolved on different planets.  And that's what I'm saying about Earth humans versus Roshar humans.  They have different origins, so it would be weird that they have exactly the same pool of primary blood types.

[Swimmingly]

They live in a different universe. Their limbs being of the same denominations should be unlikely. Brandon is going to be using Earth humans as a guide to Roshar humans in terms of anatomical detail. Get used to it.

[Aminar]

Technically it makes sense that evolution would follow similar patterns in similar conditions. The way humanity is shaped is among the most efficient for tool use and thinking nature can devise. Odds are beings on other planets of even moderatley similar conditions will wind up remarkably similar. The major differences would lie in methods of reproduction, organ placement, coloring, and material makeup, rather than in shape. Evolution isn't random. It creates efficiency, and we're pretty efficient all things considered.

[Swimmingly]

We could be equally efficient in a different manner, or even just have the details mostly different, if we evolved from birds, however.

[IllNsickly]

I think that evolution is too specific to environment..

Slight difference in gravity, oxygen and quantity of available elements in the earliest stages of evolution could have had DRASTIC effects a few thousand millennia down the road..

'Similar' conditions at that point could have been different enough to create a completely unrecognizable race.

However, i do like the thought of a race so close in Evolution that i could conceivably pass them on the street without a second thought. Makes my romantical side happy.