[OB] Oathbringer Chapter 1-3

[+Spicker]

Something that stuck out to me in the flashback was the description of how the Thrill affected Dalinar. We have had descriptions of the Thrill before, but this is the first time I remember it being described like a drug.

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He was done living for the day. It would be weeks, maybe months, before he got another opportunity.

It is clear that young Dalinor lived for the opportunity to feel the Thrill. Reading the flashback made it hard for me to reconcile this young Dalinar with the man we know now. Understanding the influence that the Thrill had on him (similar to a drug addict looking for the next fix) gives deeper insight into how someone could allow such horrible acts to happen. 

[Andy92]

3 minutes ago, retrorocket1 said:

@Andy92 that is an interesting thought but i don't think we have any evidence of shards being able to "capture" cognitive shadows, I think until that abillity is spelled out we shouldn't base theories on it.

I personally am wondering if eshonai's sister venli is odiums champion, and he was the voice that the listeners heard that lead them to szeth.

Right, it was mostly me spitballing an idea since that info came in the same chapter as the Sadeas stuff. Venli does seem like a decent idea since Odium is already able to influence Parshendi through the Everstorm. 

[StormblessDave]

An interesting thing about the Dalinar flashback is the fact that the archer was never referred to as Teleb, I hope it's someone else who we'll meet soon, the blue tattoo just shows that he was an oldblood.

Edited August 29, 2017 by StormblessDave

[Calderis]

NINE SHADOWS! 

OK. Those were amazing. 

I love the control of the visions, and I agree with Pagerunner, that was a representation of Odium. The assumption that that was Odium's Champion does not fit with the context of the Vision. The vision showed the worst possible outcome. By Tanavast's words that should not include the champion. 

And why is everyone surprised by the squires losing abilities by distance? The Nahel bond itself requires proximity between the Radiant and spren. I think it just means there's a Cognitive element to the bond as well as spiritual. 

[StormblessDave]

@Calderis That makes sense, but the fact that he found the eyes familiar seems to indicate otherwise, my first thought was Eshonai, but that's just an idea, it may be referring to something completely different.

[Pammie]

I thought that the reactions to Sadeas' murder were really interesting, especially since we know that Adolin is just standing there, watching all of it. On one hand, we have everybody agreeing that Sadeas' death was for the best, which makes total sense. Yeah, Sadeas was a strategic genius, but he would've been trying to pry Dalinar from power every chance he got.

But on the flip side, we have Dalinar mourning the Sadeas that he used to know. Not only is Sadeas' murder going to cause division in the already divided Alethi armies, but Dalinar obviously disgusted by the murder.

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And a highprince was left lying here in his own gore for half a day, Dalinar thought. Blood of my fathers.

There's no way that he'll ever accept Sadeas' death as anything other than a brutal, unlawful murder, which is going to cause problems when he discovers who the murderer is (which I'm guessing will occur in this book, fingers crossed.) And I'm sure that Ialai isn't going to fade into the background, we know that she was just as politically savvy as Sadeas. Maybe she'll frame Dalinar, causing problems for his efforts to unify? If Adolin tries to justify his actions, maybe he'll consider murdering her (or others who are causing problems and distracting from the Everstorm and upcoming Desolations)? 

So is Adolin going to feel justified because everyone agreed that Sadeas' death was for the best? Or is he going to suffer because the man he respects most, his father, is mourning his old friend and assumes that he was murdered brutally and wrongly? Will Adolin kill again, even if it's a good idea? Not only will Dalinar be upset about Adolin's decision, but Kaladin is definitely going to be against it, especially with that whole 'protecting those I hate' deal. And what about the Skybreakers? Is this something that they'll get involved in? I'm not sure how Shallan, Renarin, or the others will react, but I'm psyched to see how this turns out. 

[Calderis]

I don't think it's recognition type of familiarity. I think it's far more metaphorical than that. 

That entire vision is metaphorical. Having a concrete fact down to correct eyes would far to literal for the rest of the vision. 

[Toaster Retribution]

Okay, my thoughts:

*I am partly with @Pagerunner about the champion being Odium, and not an actual champion. At the same time, I think that the red-eyed figure in black shardplate with nine shadows is too epic to just be symbolism. And also, Dalinar feeling something familiar in the eyes. It could be the eyes of someone he knows. It could be the Thrill, or something more abstract. Wierd stuff.

*Happy to see that there are nine Unmade. 

*Sadeas corpse was lying around for ages before his own soldiers found him. Lol. I am also hyped to see how Aladar will do as Highprince of Information, since I like his character.

*Speaking of Aladar, wonder what the deal with his daughter is. Seems pointless to include her if she has no role in the narrative, so I bet she will be of some importance.

*I was suprised to learn of the range-requirement of the squires.

*Tefts knife-line was awesome. 

Edit: Was that Sadeas attempting to take women as sex-slaves at the end of the flashback-chapter? He is a disgusting pile of crem.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Toaster Retribution

[retrorocket1]

@stormblessDave I was thinking parshman too, but because of eshonai's personallity and screaming against what she is doing I figured it was more likely venli who seemed to embrace the ancient "gods"

[Jaconis]

13 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

The Stormfather did not see the figure in black Plate, and Dalinar does not mention him. That's part of why I think the explanation is lacking.

Contrast with Honor's speech in the vision. This precedes the destruction:

And it closes with this:

Odium's champion isn't the bringer of the True Desolation. Odium's champion is Honor's hope, not his fear. I find it very incongruous for the destruction to be wrought by the champion while Honor is saying getting Odium to choose a champion is their best hope.

You make good points, and I agree that this doesn't indicate that the champion is the bringer of the destruction. However, I feel as though it can't be ENTIRELY a creation from Honor's own mind. Why else the emphasis, on multiple occasions, of the eyes being familiar? 

On the subject on why they are familiar, there's a whole list of people it could be. Eshonai seems unlikely, as the familiarity Dalinar indicates seems intimate to me, showing close familiarity. He knows who Eshonai is, but he doesn't really KNOW her. That list is smaller. In no particular order: Adolin, Sadeas, Kaladin somehow? Dalinar himself? I could see it being Dalinar only really if the above theory is correct, that it's not the actual champion, just Honor's idea for him, and Honor sort of inserts whoever is having the vision into that spot. I'm not sure if this is an argument for or against some of these but (mistborn spoilers).

Spoiler

Marsh was arguably Ruin's champion. He was fanatic about freeing and saving the skaa, but become their greatest threat. Through control and manipulation, but still.

I could either see something similar happening here OR definitely not to not repeat that plot line.

Other thoughts.

Lopen already with the two arms? That would have been awesome to see more of, or at least the others reaction to it, which we will likely still get. Also, so much information about squires so quickly, after years of specuating about them. 

Controlling the visions and more open communication with Stormfather. I expect that to bring us a wealth of new information pretty quickly as well, as it will be hard to have a good in world rationale for not explaining some of the obvious questions Dalinar should be asking. Things like: what are the voidbringers capabilities? What are the Knights capabilities and how do you access them? Who are the other people the Soren are choosing? 

And we knew this from most of this flashback chapter being released, but man was Dalinar a terrible person before. I'm not sure why, after having seen the errors of his ways, he is the least bit surprised by any horrible or heinous thing Sadeas would pull. Also not sure why he still revers his brother, who we now know to have been a crazy person, but was also a terrible considering he orchestrated all this. 

[flying_shadow]

I think that the eyes were familiar because they were red. Maybe the "champion" is all of the transformed Parshendi.

[ccstat]

Re: Dalinar's authority, it is significant that he doesn't even pretend that the appointments come from Elhokar. Maybe when they announce it they'll do it in the king's name, but for now he doesn't say, "I'll have Elhokar appoint you to the post," he says "I'm naming you for the position." This is a big shift for the man who swore to himself never to take the kingship.

I also want to point out the amazing description of Urithiru. This place is bigger than I was imagining!

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Urithiru, a strikingly high structure built up against the mountains. Created from a sequence of ten ringlike tiers—each containing eighteen levels—the tower city was adorned with aqueducts, windows, and balconies like this one.

The bottom floor also had wide sections jutting out at the perimeter: large stone surfaces, each a plateau in its own right. 

10 tiers of 18 levels, carved into the stone. Depending on how much space there is between levels for minor things like load-bearing floors, that adds up to a bare minimum of 700 meters, with a more reasonable estimate well over 1000 meters high. The description in WoR suggested the whole thing is substantially wider than it is tall. This really is a city.

What was the planning meeting for this like?

"We've picked a spot for the city. It's up in the mountains." 

"Great. Make sure you are high enough. The lowest level has to be taller than a giant magical hurricane."

"Sure thing. We'll teleport everyone to the bottom, and we've invented elevators so height shouldn't be a problem."

"Perfect. I was thinking of making it look like a kilometer-high wedding cake, just to show off."

"Sounds good. I'll schedule the work crews."

I am curious, though, where the 18 comes from. That doesn't really fit with our 10-obsessive Rosharans. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by ccstat

[Erandeni]

4 minutes ago, Jaconis said:

Lopen already with the two arms? That would have been awesome to see more of, or at least the others reaction to it, which we will likely still get. Also, so much information about squires so quickly, after years of specuating about them. 

Lopen' healing make me wonder if Hobber was able to fully heal before Kaladin left.

[PunSpren]

Ok so 9 unmade? I might be missing some info here but could there be 9 because, one "Crucial ancient spren" has been captured ? Or is it 9 for another reason? 

[flying_shadow]

There's 9 Unmade because Braize is 9-centric, according to a WOB.

[dendrophobe]

3. a. Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharian start system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system. 
A. Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharian system.
3. b. The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the Cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them? 
A. Big RAFO
3. c. Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?
A. Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharian planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric

[the_archduke]

Shin invasions?  The reference made it sound like it had happened a long time ago, but wow.  If they can't walk on stone, how would they invade?

 

[sooyangi]

So interesting! I know we've gotten Dalinar's flashbacks before but I still find it really interesting to read how different the past Dalinar is vs the current Dalinar. I also thought it funny to read that young Dalinar said he never felt young but he reads young to me, in a way Kaladin didn't.

Things I thought were interesting:

• Renarin! He only showed up for a bit but I hope he gets his own chapter. I'm also interested in seeing how his character grows in Oathbringer! I can't wait to meet his spren.
• Nine shadows!!
• Dalinar calling Teft by name. Not a huuge deal and knowing Dalinar he probably always knew their names... but I always heard them referenced as Kaladin's bridgemen so it's nice to see them acknowledged by name.
• Dalinar's flashback, where the dying brightlord asks "why us" and Dalinar doesn't know.
• Radiants needing to be on both sides of the Oathgates
• Kaladin and his squires. I wonder how Rlain will fit into this?
• The direction the aftermath of Sadeas murder will go to.
• I never really cared about the relationship that Dalinar and Navani had but I actually liked reading their dynamic in the preview we got.
• Edit: Dalinar and Fullnight! I wonder if we'll see how Dalinar got Gallant? How long do Ryshadium live?

And I'm sure there's more but I'm too excited to think of anything else. It's interesting both how short three chapters can read, even though they weren't that short and they contained a lot of interesting things.

Edited August 29, 2017 by sooyangi

[flying_shadow]

The Shin invasions could have happened a long time ago, before the modern customs were followed.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Kalinovsky

[WhiteLeeopard]

I'm going to leave this link here, was a soft theory but after reading new chapters seems it could be valid.

 

[Bort]

13 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

*Speaking of Aladar, wonder what the deal with his daughter is. Seems pointless to include her if she has no role in the narrative, so I bet she will be of some importance.

Her description reminds me of Vin.

[Toaster Retribution]

I thought a bit more on the champion. As I said before, he looks storming badass, so I would be sad to see that it was just symbolism. I am also not necessarily convinced by the argument that the vision is created by Honors worst dreams. It would be pretty horrible if the champion started to wreck things, maybe win against Honors champion. Its not like the Rosharans automatically wins just because Odium names a champion. 

Furthermore, why should both the golden light and the Shardbearer symbolise Odium? The light seems very shard-y, the shardbearer, not so much. Why would Odium even be a red-eyed shardbearer in black, if his color is gold. Makes little sense. Because if both the shardbearer and the light are Odium, it means that the vision shows Odium behind Odium. Wierd. 

Also, @Bort I doubt May Aladar is Vin :-)

[Bort]

@Toaster Retribution You are most likely right, it probably isn't Vin, and I am probably only seeing the connection because I am in the middle of reading Hero of Ages right now. My guess is she is going to turn out to be another Radiant of some kind.

[the_archduke]

So is Kaladin or Jasnah going to be opening the Oathgate in Kholinar?

[Toaster Retribution]

1 minute ago, the_archduke said:

So is Kaladin or Jasnah going to be opening the Oathgate in Kholinar?

Sounds very likely. Jasnah has to know where to find it and how to work it first though, so it might end up being Kaladin.