[OB] Akinah - location and significance (spoilers of course)

[+Extesian]

The reading from an Oathbringer interlude involving a soulcaster is here.

 

Edit - I'm not sure if I should have spoilered this whole thing, I'm assuming not as this is a spoiler-board - but as I saw the description come up on the feed, I'm basically putting in extra spaces here so no one is inadvertently spoiled.

 

It involves a soulcaster on a ship heading to Aimia. The captain wants to find gemhearts, as greatshells go here to die. The soulcaster wants to find the secret to curing her fatal transformation from too much soulcasting. The island on which both things can be found is an Aimian island, ringed by soulcast pillars.

The island is called Akinah. For those who don't remember the name, it is in chapter 33 of Way of Kings, when Kabsal is demonstrating cymatics to Shallan. Cymatics are the pattern physical material makes when reacting to sound wavelengths and Kabsal demonstrates that the great Rosharan cities match cymatic patterns. We see the same with the Shattered Plains. One of the cities Kabsal mentions is called Akinah. We did not know where it was located until now.

Here is a picture of the city (from Coppermind, drawn by Isaac).

We know from the interlude that Akinah was the place mainlanders used to obtain soulcasters.

Quote

The Aimians had known about soulcasters. This is where you’d come to get the devices in the old days. You’d come to the ancient isle of Akinah.

We also know the Aimians are guarding it extremely closely.

Quote

“After many warnings not to come to this place... it is rare I must guard it so aggressively. Men must not again discover this place...There are those who can pull secrets from your soul, and the cost would be the ends of worlds."

So, the interlude gives us the location of a significant lost city, tells us it was an Aimian city and fundamental enough to be one of the cities built around a cymatic pattern. It is also significant enough for the Aimians to regard its secrets, if revealed, as bringing the end of worlds.

We also know, from Hoid's story to Kaladin of Wandersail, that the captain in that story wanted to find the origin of Voidbringers, and sailed basically in that direction. And another name for Akinah, in the interlude, is "the Void’s Playground".

I'm opening up to any speculation on its significance. But I'd start with this. Greatshells go to die there, and leave their gemhearts. Aimians used to create soulcasters there. Aimians will be a major player in the Cosmere, featuring in the final space-Mistborn books that wrap up the Cosmere arc.

I've thought about this a lot, and I can't think of what its special significance is. I don't believe it's Cultivation's perpendicularity, that's supposed to be in the Horneater Peaks. It could be Honor's perpendicularity, but we know that moves. It cooould be Odium's perpendicularity, and Aimians are guarding it, but that wouldn't make sense with people formerly coming there to get soulcasters. What we have to figure out is why it used to be ok for men to know its secrets, but it's not now.

The best idea I have is that it's Origin. But I have little to back that up. I'm also wondering if it could be basically the place that Adonalsium originally created or invested in Roshar (as I believe cymatics represent the way in which Adonalsium created Roshar - my own little head-theory). But basically, I'm hoping together we can come up with some ideas. I have no doubt whatsoever it's one of the most significant places in Roshar.

And either way, at least we have knowledge now of Akinah's location.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Extesian

[Calderis]

I definitely think the great shells and the Soulcaster are connected somehow. 

I also find myself wondering if the death rattles are a two way street and that comment on "pulling secrets from your soul" is Moelach's true purpose and the rattles are a byproduct. 

As far as Akinah itself... I'm at a loss 

[Steeldancer]

So what would they do if a radiant went there? Gosh darn it i wanna know. They wouldn't be able to stop lift

[Fulminato]

there are a theory I toyed for some time, the soulcaster and the oathgate aren't real fabrial, but something else. all fabrial we know don't interact with the ten sourge (of surgebind), they can enhace, dumper, attract, mimc movement both in the same way o the opposite. but soulcaster is someting total different, like the oathgate. all the thinking start to a fact, someone close the oathgate, the KR broke the oath, and so cannot interact in any meaningful way the with the oathgate itself, but the stormseat gate still functional, if the city fell in the (no so) last desolation, aharietiam, when the day of recreance come the city probably had alredy entombed by the crem and probably who close the path don't bother to lock that oathgate. o peraphs knowning the human need to find the city don't lockup the last pathway. and a oddity i spot now. urithiru exist before the KR, nohadon 'walk' to the city, but he predate the order, and stll the oathgate are alredy built, ok sourgebind still exist, but don't think invalid all the theory

Edited May 25, 2017 by Fulminato

[ZenBossanova]

There does seem to be some kind of difference between modern fabrials and the ancient ones, which cannot be replicated. 

[MPHRD]

1 hour ago, ZenBossanova said:

There does seem to be some kind of difference between modern fabrials and the ancient ones, which cannot be replicated. 

My personal theory about the difference between ancient and modern fabrials is that they have completely different underlying mechanics. We know modern fabrials work based on trapping spren in gems of certain cuts, but the soulcasters (only ancient fabrials we have really scene) have replaceable gems. If I had to guess I would say what makes the anceint fabreals work is they are of a god metal or god stone wrapped in gold. 

[ZenBossanova]

The Ancient Fabrials (Soulcasters, Nin's Resurrection Machine, Oathgates) do seem to be very different. 

I think part of it, is that Humans interact with the magic by Surgebinding and Parshendi interact with the magic with forms and rhythms. I expect that Ancient Fabrials are simply the Aimians form of Magic. Interestingly, Brandon has referred to fabrials as a distinct magic system, even though the things that Navani does seems related in spirit, to the Surgebinding we have seen from humans.  

Perhaps (highly speculative) only the Aimians can make these soulcasters, because there is part of them left in it. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by ZenBossanova

[+Extesian]

These are good points about the difference between ancient fabrials and modern. I've been troubled for a while about that and it firms up (thoughnowhere near decisively) two ideas in my mind. One - ancient fabrials, as a 'different' magic system, are of Adonalsium, and Akinah is related to Adonalsium, as are the Aimians. Two - ancient fabrials are purely of Cultivation. I favor the first in terms of the Aimiajs and the location. The second in terms of magic systems. But I may have missed something fundamental about either option.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Extesian
Changed mind

[The One Who Connects]

On 5/24/2017 at 10:43 PM, Extesian said:

It involves a soulcaster on a ship heading to Aimia.

---

We also know, from Hoid's story to Kaladin of Wandersail, that the captain in that story wanted to find the origin of Voidbringers, and sailed basically in that direction.

I am fairly certain that the Wandersail set off in the opposite direction. The Coppermind article even mentions that Derethil set off through a Highstorm. This should imply that they set off from the eastern coast of Roshar, what is now the Unclaimed Hills, while Aimia is on the western edge near Shinovar.

Edit: argh.. but it also says that he "was a Western King" and that he "sailed westward." Highstorms don't cross the mountains of Shinovar, so I still feel my through a Highstorm logic should apply, but... and then they find a giant whirlpool where "the ocean drains", while the Origin of oceans is the the east on the Rosharan map, ....

I'm losing my own trains of thought here. Just disregard this post until such point as I can make sense of it

Edited May 27, 2017 by The One Who Connects
Read more of Derethil's wiki article, didn't turn out well.

[Fulminato]

11 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I am fairly certain that the Wandersail set off in the opposite direction. The Coppermind article even mentions that Derethil set off through a Highstorm. This should imply that they set off from the eastern coast of Roshar, what is now the Unclaimed Hills, while Aimia is on the western edge near Shinovar.

Edit: argh.. but it also says that he "was a Western King" and that he "sailed westward." Highstorms don't cross the mountains of Shinovar, so I still feel my through a Highstorm logic should apply, but... and then they find a giant whirlpool where "the ocean drains", while the Origin of oceans is the the east on the Rosharan map, ....

I'm losing my own trains of thought here. Just disregard this post until such point as I can make sense of it

kaladin after the story ask to hoid how anyone can know, because the wandersail cannot return to the main land, since the highstorm blow only from east to west

PS: the highstorm lose large portion of their strength after the shinovar's mountain, but they still a storm.

[The One Who Connects]

3 hours ago, Fulminato said:

PS: the Highstorm lose large portion of their strength after the Shinovar's mountain, but they still a storm.

Ok, since I do feel like they don't get hit by the storm in Shinovar, I felt that it broke the storm like mountains near a desert break storms on earth.

This may have been me overestimating the size of Shinovar's mountain range, but I never considered that the storm may be large enough that the mountains just tear a hole in it for a little bit that gradually reconnects, like a fast river current going around a large rock.

3 hours ago, Fulminato said:

Kaladin after the story ask to Hoid how anyone can know, because the Wandersail cannot return to the main land, since the Highstorm blow only from east to west

That I actually have an answer for. (3 to be exact)

1. The fact that Hoid is telling it could place him as a member of the ship's crew or at least, that he was there(and the only one who could escape if they never got back)
2. We are never told where they landed back on the mainland, only that they used the momentum of the whirlpool to get away. It is entirely possible that the whirlpool is the origin(since the planet should be round) so they could have gone the same way as the storms to minimize the chance of having to go through more of them
3. They got hit by a Highstorm near land, Hoid and a few crew-members survived to tell the story.

---

@OP, I apologize for derailing, and could make a separate thread if you want me to.

Edited May 27, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Fulminato]

7 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Ok, since I do feel like they don't get hit by the storm in Shinovar, I felt that it broke the storm like mountains near a desert break storms on earth.

This may have been me overestimating the size of Shinovar's mountain range, but I never considered that the storm may be large enough that the mountains just tear a hole in it for a little bit that gradually reconnects, like a fast river current going around a large rock.

Glass windows. Facing east, toward the Origin. The first time he had visited this place—just after being exiled from his homeland—he hadn’t understood just how odd those windows were. Back then, he’d still been accustomed to gentle highstorms. Rain, wind, and meditation. WoR Chapter I-10 Szeth

[+Extesian]

18 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Ok, since I do feel like they don't get hit by the storm in Shinovar, I felt that it broke the storm like mountains near a desert break storms on earth.

This may have been me overestimating the size of Shinovar's mountain range, but I never considered that the storm may be large enough that the mountains just tear a hole in it for a little bit that gradually reconnects, like a fast river current going around a large rock.

That I actually have an answer for. (3 to be exact)

1. The fact that Hoid is telling it could place him as a member of the ship's crew or at least, that he was there(and the only one who could escape if they never got back)
2. We are never told where they landed back on the mainland, only that they used the momentum of the whirlpool to get away. It is entirely possible that the whirlpool is the origin(since the planet should be round) so they could have gone the same way as the storms to minimize the chance of having to go through more of them
3. They got hit by a Highstorm near land, Hoid and a few crew-members survived to tell the story.

---

@OP, I apologize for derailing, and could make a separate thread if you want me to.

No I'm very happy with it going in this direction. My post actually started out with a theory that Origin is in the Aimia region, and Highstorms start there and go round the world, which is why people think they start in the East. I thought the weird behavior of the area, its significance, the seemingly highly invested nature of the Aimians, all add up to that and I was hoping this interlude would help prove that. It raised my suspicions but there are problems with the theory, which is why I didn't propose it here (other than as one option). But the Wandersail story must be significant so I'm happy with discussion of it. 

[kari-no-sugata]

For it to be something big enough that "the cost would be the ends of worlds", then I don't think it can be something that's only relevant to the planet of Roshar.

If this is foreshadowing for the rest of the SA (and not the Cosmere in general) then it most likely relates to Odium. For example, there's some hints that Honor was able to somehow limit Odium to the Greater Roshar system or maybe Blaize specifically. If this is more than simply something in the Cognitive or Spiritual realms then it could have some physical presence (perhaps on multiple worlds). You would think it would be better protected if so but who knows how things have changed over the years.

That was the first idea that came to mind. That it is essentially a lock (maybe one of many) on Odium's prison. I'm sure there's other possibilities.

[+Extesian]

3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

For it to be something big enough that "the cost would be the ends of worlds", then I don't think it can be something that's only relevant to the planet of Roshar.

If this is foreshadowing for the rest of the SA (and not the Cosmere in general) then it most likely relates to Odium. For example, there's some hints that Honor was able to somehow limit Odium to the Greater Roshar system or maybe Blaize specifically. If this is more than simply something in the Cognitive or Spiritual realms then it could have some physical presence (perhaps on multiple worlds). You would think it would be better protected if so but who knows how things have changed over the years.

That was the first idea that came to mind. That it is essentially a lock (maybe one of many) on Odium's prison. I'm sure there's other possibilities.

This is am interesting direction. Yeah ending worlds is what got me speculating (though getting nowhere). If the Aimians are saying that I feel like it's one of the most important secrets in Roshar, and possibly the Cosmere.

I've been obsessed for a long time with Aimia, and with the cymatic patterns. Which was why confirmation that the city there is one of the cymatic pattern ones got me very excited. I've often thought they may be remnants of Adonalsium's construction or manipulation of Roshar. But your idea is fascinating, that it could be some kind of 'lock' to Odium's prison. If so, perhaps each of the cymatic cities could be. 

My aversion to the idea is that it's too similar to the Great Seals from Wheel of Time. I feel still that Odium's imprisonment is simply that he let himself become bound to an Oath by Honor and that Honor's intent is so powerful it can bind even a Shard. But it's an idea I'll try to look for more evidence for. 

[MoS03]

My pet theory is that the Dawnsingers were Listeners bonded with Radiant-level spren, and they had the power to carve out cities like that with sound, but in a bond that doesn't offer sentience to the spren.

[Stormlightning]

I think the 10-part pattern is significant for Akinah. 10 'districts' of the city and 10 polestones for soulcasing...?

Part of me is trying really hard to connect Akinah and probably the other cymatic cities to what existed in the Pits of Hathsin. It makes me wonder what kind of 'mercantile ecosystem' could exist there for Cosmere travelers...

Perhaps what makes Akinah's soulcasters unique may be related to the purity of their gems. They seem to have access to much more of them there than elsewhere, and maybe they had some way to create powerfully symmetrical gems or at least perfectly flawless ones.
Perhaps they have some form of magic where they are able to create soulcasters with spren that are not trapped, but bound in a different and more acceptable way. 
Or maybe the power in their soulcasters comes from the material they use for the framing, and not the gems at all!

please excuse if my soulcasting understanding is terrible, I don't consider it one of my stronger subjects.

 

On 6/2/2017 at 8:55 AM, MoS03 said:

My pet theory is that the Dawnsingers were Listeners bonded with Radiant-level spren, and they had the power to carve out cities like that with sound, but in a bond that doesn't offer sentience to the spren.

This...sounds fascinating. I have no idea how it would work, but the idea of being able to carve the cities in a way other than manually cutting them out appeals to me.

[MoS03]

Just a pet theory, but it explains a lot. I think of the Dawnshards as the Radiant-Level spren, and a Dawnsinger as a Listener bonded to a Dawnshard. 

 

But then I wonder what happened to them. Were these Dawnshards here pre-Honor? If not, how did they come to be? Were they something else before Honor Invested, then changed as a result? Perhaps they were the Dawnshards pre-Honor, and the Honorblades post?

No one knows and is telling. I'm so excited for Oathbringer!

[Calderis]

39 minutes ago, MoS03 said:

Just a pet theory, but it explains a lot. I think of the Dawnshards as the Radiant-Level spren, and a Dawnsinger as a Listener bonded to a Dawnshard. 

 

But then I wonder what happened to them. Were these Dawnshards here pre-Honor? If not, how did they come to be? Were they something else before Honor Invested, then changed as a result? Perhaps they were the Dawnshards pre-Honor, and the Honorblades post?

No one knows and is telling. I'm so excited for Oathbringer!

So if the Dawnshards worked with the Parshendi to create Dawnsingers... And the Dawnshards are lost... 

Are the Dawnshards corrupted and now the Unmade? 

[MoS03]

23 hours ago, Calderis said:

So if the Dawnshards worked with the Parshendi to create Dawnsingers... And the Dawnshards are lost... 

Are the Dawnshards corrupted and now the Unmade? 

I don't know! Maybe that is what happened! There's any number of things that could be, so we're stuck waiting.

 

But, in the mean time... could Odium turn a splinter of Honor completely? Or would the intents merge?

[Devious]

On 26/05/2017 at 6:12 AM, ZenBossanova said:

The Ancient Fabrials (Soulcasters, Nin's Resurrection Machine, Oathgates) do seem to be very different. 

I think part of it, is that Humans interact with the magic by Surgebinding and Parshendi interact with the magic with forms and rhythms. I expect that Ancient Fabrials are simply the Aimians form of Magic. Interestingly, Brandon has referred to fabrials as a distinct magic system, even though the things that Navani does seems related in spirit, to the Surgebinding we have seen from humans.  

Perhaps (highly speculative) only the Aimians can make these soulcasters, because there is part of them left in it. 

What is Nin’s Resurrection Machine.

[ZenBossanova]

2 minutes ago, Devious said:

What is Nin’s Resurrection Machine.

The device that the Herald Nin/Nale uses at the end of WoR

[Devious]

Just now, ZenBossanova said:

The device that the Herald Nin/Nale uses at the end of WoR

Wasn’t that an honorblade.

[The One Who Connects]

8 minutes ago, Devious said:

Wasn’t that an honorblade.

Nope. His Honorblade has Gravitation and Division. The Fabrial(most likely) that revives Szeth has to be Progression.

[+Extesian]

4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Nope. His Honorblade has Gravitation and Division. The Fabrial(most likely) that revives Szeth has to be Progression.

Yeah this WoB is pretty good (if not complete) confirmation. 

Quote

Q: Regarding soulcasting, I have a question - why do people continue to use it post-Recreance? Would it not have been seen as a betrayal, given that the Radiants abandoned them? Why this Surge but not others? Was it simply the only Surge available and people would have kept using the others anyway? I guess it's a matter of practicality but given how devout Vorinism can be it does seem odd.
 
A: Good question. You'll notice that soulcasters aren't the only fabrial that access a surge, however. They're just the one most commonly used. There are plenty of rationalizations. But it comes down to this: they are too useful to give up.
 
Q: Ah yes, now that I think of it Navani's conjoined-gem fabrials seem to utilize Gravitation and perhaps the heating one uses Abrasion(?) to produce heat. Or are there others I did miss?
 
A: I was referencing a regrowth fabrial, actually, which I believe has appeared several times. 
 
Q: Isn't the regrowth fabrial incredibly rare? I was under the impression it disappeared with the Recreance and only Nin's reappearance brought it back. AFAIK, only a Radiant in Dalinar's vision and a Herald have actually used it so far. 
 
A: Their rarity depends on the time period in question. But yes, I'd list them as incredibly rare.