Seth to help train Kaladin and newly activated bridge four/radiants?

[Benjibooboo]

I know this may seem unfeasible, but it's a possibility. Seth is somehow convinced that there are bigger problems to face from the everstorm than adhering to his truthless label and helps train Kaladin and members of bridge four (Hopefully after an awesome fight scene).

Side note: members of bridge four like moash and teft seem to have there own demons. I think brandon may be setting them up to overcome these demons for honorable reasons and therefor attract spren of their own. Thoughts?

[el_warko]

If to be a Windrunner (assumming Bridge 4 are to be Windrunners) , you need an Honorspren, then most def on the side note. Is the WoB on the issue - i.e. one spren per order?

 

WRT your first point, the Szethinator is a fanatic so short of a Stone Shaman rocking up and letting him off the hook, I can't see him swapping sides per se.

 

Finally, the battle will be epic, no doubt.

[Aminar]

I definitley see conversations between Kal and Szeth about surgebinding as something that will happen.  Szeth isn't nearly the zealot he was, he's close to breaking free, and submitting his shardblade in exchange for his life.  Or switching sides.  I don't think Bridge Four is likely to become a whole group of Windrunners, as Brandon stuck a lot of his friends in the group as an in joke, and developing them too far seems off.  I think its more, Syl will convince more Honorspren to try to find people to bond with and bring to Kaladin.
Also, el_warko, I read every one of your posts in your Avatar's voice and it makes me sort of hate you by association...  Sorry.

[Cromptj]

Well, if Kaladin takes Szeth's shardblade, he would stop being Truthless and then would be free to do whatever he likes. If this happens, Szeth may well feel so indebted to Kaladin that he would agree to help.

[EvilNuff]

I think at this point it is pretty widely accepted that Szeth's blade is an honor blade and not a Shardblade.  However, with that said, assuming it functions similarly to a Shardblade, Szeth would have to voluntarily relinquish his bond to it or die in order for it to be "taken".  As I recall in WoK Szeth explicitly states at one point that he cannot give up his blade.

[Cromptj]

I didn't say that it was a likely scenario. I agree that his blade is almost certainly an honorblade but I didn't want to say anything until it had definitely been confirmed.

[Aminar]

We don't know enough about Truthless to know the blade is a part of it. But part of Szeth's arc has to be that slaughtering others for an ideal like he has been is never honorouble. He's not going to hold to his truthlessness forever. He'll see the flaw and give in.

[Moogle]

But part of Szeth's arc has to be that slaughtering others for an ideal like he has been is never honorouble. He's not going to hold to his truthlessness forever. He'll see the flaw and give in.

 

At the risk of derailing this topic entirely, I would argue that Szeth is completely honorable and is an example of taking honor too far. You need to be able to bend and break the rules, at least a little. Szeth shows an example of taking things too far and never breaking your word to obey other people. Honor is not necessarily something you want lots of. It's a pity there isn't a Shard of Pragmatism.

 

I like the idea that it is his Honorblade that is twisting him to follow his oaths to his degree. I think it detracts from the character (if he's not under a magical compulsion, he becomes a more interesting character in my opinion) but it would still be interesting. I don't know though... Szeth betraying Taravangian's plans is not where I think he's headed. I think he's more headed to killing Taravangian.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Moogle

[el_warko]

Also, el_warko, I read every one of your posts in your Avatar's voice and it makes me sort of hate you by association...  Sorry.

 

No worries Aminar, I can live with that.

Edited February 5, 2014 by el_warko

[Elbereth]

At the risk of derailing this topic entirely, I would argue that Szeth is completely honorable and is an example of taking honor too far. You need to be able to bend and break the rules, at least a little. Szeth shows an example of taking things too far and never breaking your word to obey other people. Honor is not necessarily something you want lots of. It's a pity there isn't a Shard of Pragmatism.

 

I like the idea that it is his Honorblade that is twisting him to follow his oaths to his degree. I think it detracts from the character (if he's not under a magical compulsion, he becomes a more interesting character in my opinion) but it would still be interesting.

That is brilliant. A shard of Pragmatism could be terrifying, though...

Note that according to the WoR excerpts:

Syl directly disobeyed orders to stay in the Cognitive Realm, so it's unlikely that there are other Honorspren around.

So it's unlikely we'll be seeing many more Windrunners for a while, unless spren aren't tied to order at all.

[Aminar]

At the risk of derailing this topic entirely, I would argue that Szeth is completely honorable and is an example of taking honor too far. You need to be able to bend and break the rules, at least a little. Szeth shows an example of taking things too far and never breaking your word to obey other people. Honor is not necessarily something you want lots of. It's a pity there isn't a Shard of Pragmatism.

 

I like the idea that it is his Honorblade that is twisting him to follow his oaths to his degree. I think it detracts from the character (if he's not under a magical compulsion, he becomes a more interesting character in my opinion) but it would still be interesting. I don't know though... Szeth betraying Taravangian's plans is not where I think he's headed. I think he's more headed to killing Taravangian.

I think we partially have to base Honor on Syl's behavior as an "honor elemental". She's expressed extreme discomfort at killing, even important killing. Szeth has outright murdered dozens of people at this point for no other reason than he's been told to, combined with some kind of religous belief and an oath grounded in it. Worse yet, he knows his actions will create further bloodshed for a purpose he neither believes in nor understands. He's done so to protect his soul, given some of his introspection, and that's cowardice not honor. He's acting without a why. That isn't honor. Honor is doing the right thing whether it benefits you or not. He's doing the wrong thing because doing the right thing would be worse for his afterlife(or at least that's how it feels, and I think that's where Brandon is taking his character. To that realization.) Also, I don't think an honorblade forces sticking to a deal. The oathpact was broken by nine people wielding honorblades and there is no honor in being ramrodded into following an oath. The honor is in keeping that oath even when it means literal hell.

This is all based on the tone Brandon seems to be setting for honor based on Syl and his characterizations for Kaladin and Dalinar, both of whom are honorable men as described by Brandon.

[el_warko]

That isn't honor. Honor is doing the right thing whether it benefits you or not.

 

That's kind of Moogles point though isn't it (I'm so sorry (I whispered) Moogle if it's not).  What you are saying is true based around how you / the general populous define(s) honour.  Szeth's definition differs from yours, that doesn't make it any less consistant to his values. 

 

I draw your attention to a converstion between an emperor and a king in another of Brandon's novels,

Eland and Yomen, Hero of Ages, Mistborn 3

the conversation may have been about troop movements or maybe logistics, but the gist remains valid.

 

Yes, he is doing it to avoid oblivion but he does not enjoy it, it's killing him softly (one time one time).  An argument could be made that by forcing himself to commit these attrocites while alive, and paying for them for eternity actually requires far more courage than to lay down his blade and his life and succumbed to nothingness.

Edited February 5, 2014 by el_warko

[Moogle]

I think we partially have to base Honor on Syl's behavior as an "honor elemental".

 

Spren are based off of human perceptions, and those change with time. Returned in Warbreaker change visibly as standards of beauty change. Spren might be similar, which puts honorspren in an odd position. Syl is also an irregular honorspren, as she went against the ban on honorspren going to the Physical, so I think her behavior does not quite set the trend for honorspren anyways.

 

Honor is doing the right thing whether it benefits you or not. He's doing the wrong thing because doing the right thing would be worse for his afterlife(or at least that's how it feels, and I think that's where Brandon is taking his character. To that realization.)

 

I think you're conflating honor with being 'good'. Your definition doesn't seem to match the way honor is commonly used. Google had a few definitions for honor, and these stood out to me:

1. high respect; esteem. "his portrait hangs in the place of honor"

2. fulfill (an obligation) or keep (an agreement). "make sure the franchisees honor the terms of the contract"

3. regard with great respect. "Joyce has now learned to honor her father's memory"

 

Here are similar definitions for honorable:

1. Deserving or winning honor and respect: led an honorable life.

2. Bringing distinction or recognition: honorable service to one's nation.

3. Possessing and characterized by honor: an honorable person.

4. Consistent with honor or good name: followed the only honorable course of action.

5. Distinguished; illustrious: this honorable gathering of scholars.

6. Attended by marks of recognition and honor: received an honorable burial.

None of these mention being 'good' as a requirement to be honorable.

Syl says that the respect and gratitude that the soldiers Kaladin saved in the army for him was what initially drew her in, which fits nicely with her being an honorspren.

Honor killings are done to protect the honor of a family (how they're regarded). I think that honor killings can easily be seen as honorable. It's sort of in the name. What's honorable depends on your culture and what people will cause people to regard you better. In Szeth's case, he would be regarded as even lower if he were to stop obeying the orders of his masters, and so he's honorable there. Basically, what el_warko said.

 

Also, I don't think an honorblade forces sticking to a deal. The oathpact was broken by nine people wielding honorblades and there is no honor in being ramrodded into following an oath. The honor is in keeping that oath even when it means literal hell.

 

This is a good point, but the Heralds sort of did spend a few thousand years being tortured before they broke. I think that would take a remarkable amount of mental discipline, and that the Honorblades might have contributed to why the Heralds were so hard to break.

 

This is all based on the tone Brandon seems to be setting for honor based on Syl and his characterizations for Kaladin and Dalinar, both of whom are honorable men as described by Brandon.

 

Dalinar slaughters Parshendi by the thousand, and he's considered honorable. I think you can easily argue the same for Szeth. Szeth keeps his promises, he obeys his orders despite the great personal pain he feels at having to kill people. He is enduring this great pain despite the fact that he could easily just stop and walk away, because this is his punishment as Truthless.

 

Szeth is being honorable in accepting his punishment. I would say a prisoner who tries to escape from his cell is being dishonorable in not accepting his punishment.

 

I agree that he can be seen as selfish for not stopping the killing of people because he fears he will stop existing in the afterlife, but I thought that was more of a rationalization than anything. It isn't fear that's driving him to kill people. He never remarks about on feeling fear. Plus, nothing says you can't be honorable and selfish.

[Aminar]

I'll stick with my theory that Szeth's views of honor are flawed.  The reasons are very much because of who Brandon is, and how he portrays honorable characters.  He does portray them as good.  Half the novel is about how flawed and selfish the Alethi views of honor are.  

Basically I'm basing this on the theme of the book.  There are half a dozen interpretations of honor shown, but the characters we're meant to respect are the ones that are good while being honorable.  Szeth has no self-respect left.  We're meant to pity him.  Kal fought through that.  Szeth hasn't.  Dalinar has killed hundreds of Parshendi for a failed cause, but he's starting to realize how wrong that is, and he's trying to change the way it works.(Of note, the innate racism of the Alethi is still prevalent in his mindset.)
So I guess you could say, in Brandon's work Honorable does mean good.  When done truly right.  At least the way I see the series going.

[Moogle]

I'll stick with my theory that Szeth's views of honor are flawed.  The reasons are very much because of who Brandon is, and how he portrays honorable characters.  He does portray them as good.  Half the novel is about how flawed and selfish the Alethi views of honor are.  

Basically I'm basing this on the theme of the book.  There are half a dozen interpretations of honor shown, but the characters we're meant to respect are the ones that are good while being honorable.  Szeth has no self-respect left.  We're meant to pity him.  Kal fought through that.  Szeth hasn't.  Dalinar has killed hundreds of Parshendi for a failed cause, but he's starting to realize how wrong that is, and he's trying to change the way it works.(Of note, the innate racism of the Alethi is still prevalent in his mindset.)

So I guess you could say, in Brandon's work Honorable does mean good.  When done truly right.  At least the way I see the series going.

 

You seem to be arguing that Brandon's character's tend to both be honorable and 'good', therefore honorable means good. I'll argue there's a correlation, but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, because I think there's no need to say the two are the same. TWoK showed multiple types of honor (there's ten different orders of Radiants, each with different views on it for a start), and that because of the variety I think that some types of honor are not necessarily going to be 'good' by most people's reckoning.

 

Really, the only major person in TWoK that can't be construed as honorable in some fashion is probably Sadeas, but even he's got a twisted version of it (killing Dalinar in order to put him out of his insanity-by-Sadeas'-standards so he will stop shaming himself). Appropriate for a world where all the humans have a bit of Honor in them.

 

(At this point I would normally argue that you could even say that Taravangian shows a certain odd sense of honor as king by being selfless enough to cause great sorrow and pain to himself by killing people he loves to save all of Roshar, but that is opening an entirely new can of worms.)

Edited February 5, 2014 by Moogle

[Aminar]

We're not talking dictionary definition honor here. We're talking Rosharian honor as described by Brandon Sanderson. That's going to have a lot to do with right and wrong.

That's where Brandon's style comes in. He's not a infinite shades of grey writer. He's not black and white, but he has his character grow into better people through their narrative arcs. We know he doesn't like grimdark stuff. His end portrayal of the series is going to reflect that. With so much of a focus on honor he's going to spend some time dispelling false ideals as they relate to perceptions of honor. He has three characters obsessed with the concept, a deity, and a group of honor spren. Of those three all of them are good men in terrible situations. Only one of them is doing something he knows is wrong. He has an entire culture obsessed with it, that is clearly portrayed as wrong about what honor means, with their turning war into a game, the duels, the lack of discipline, the caste system. Szeth is yet another example of honor misunderstood. Same as Taravangian. They're doing what they do with a flawed understanding of honor, which is why for now they are the villains of the piece. That will wind up changing.

Beyond that I have trouble believing all the knights radiant were devoted to honor. If they were they'd all have honorspren. But they don't. I can't believe there was an order of radiants that used cryptics and held to honor.

At best we see a dismissal of the concept of honor in favor of good, but I don't see that in Brandon's style. Honor is something important and implies doing good within how he describes and characterizes it.