ProfessorMLyon Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I was reading another topic and it was mentioned Kaladin reciting the Third Ideal during his battle with Szeth. So the thought is do you think that WoR will have the Third Ideal recited? And with no information on what the Third Ideal actually is, what situation would you like to see Kaladin in where is brought to do so? I think it would be cool to see the Third Ideal have something to do with Kaladin's relationship with Amaram. Like "I will protect those who are idiot jerks and deserve to tarred and feathered and then driven out of town" or something similar.There is a lot of potential for him to grow into his Radianhood with this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I expect it to have something to do with leadership! Not really sure what, though. "I will put aside my personal feelings in order to best lead people" isn't very exciting. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don_karma_II Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 There is a good chance that the third ideal could be related to the secondary attribute of that particular order, though there is not an official confirmation for that. Kaladin's secondary attribute is leading. So something along the lines of "I will lead those who needs to be led" or I will lead those who want to follow". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moist_von_Lipwig Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) Touched upon this in another thread. But I agree with you that he wont get his third ideal until the end of his Amaram story arc. It's probably going to be towards the end of the book, at a point where Kaladin is faced with a choice. As in tWoK where he was faced with "turn and run or fight for others?" when he saved Dalinar's army. I agree with Moogle (edit: and don_karma_II) that it will probably be Leadership related. Personally I like the sound of "I will lead others to act with honour." Edited January 30, 2014 by Moist_von_Lipwig 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don_karma_II Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I expect it to have something to do with leadership! Not really sure what, though. "I will put aside my personal feelings in order to best lead people" isn't very exciting. And I was just typing that! Bravo. Upvote for you .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don_karma_II Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 In tWoK, Kaladin's story arc was protecting. In WoR, it seems to be trust issues and vengeance. So it might be related to that too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 If we assume the Windrunners' Third Ideal is related to leadership (which I find an easy assumption), then it sounds unlikely that Kaladin will speak it during his encounter with Szeth - if said encounter actually happens. There are only two scenarios I can conceive that could inspire Kaladin's leadership during this fight: The former bridgemen want to join in on the fun. Kaladin is initially reluctant (because he would be aware of the magnitude of the damage Szeth / a Windrunner / a Radiant can do), but goes through some internal monologue and decides that he will accept responsibility for them be their leader. Szeth, by some weird circumstance or a loophole in his contract decides he'd be perfectly fine if Kaladin brought the Windrunners order back from the grave and then proceeded to leading our favorite tragic Shin. Kaladin accepts - hence, leadership. And while not implausible, both of those scenarios are awfully specific. I don't think the Third Ideal will show up during the fight with Szeth. Plus, we already had one Ideal spoken in the midst of a battle. There is certainly something to be said about performing under pressure, but it's time for hard methodical research to also pay off. My belief is that while there should and will be some pressure on Kaladin when he finally speaks the Third Ideal, it won't be as deadly as a wild Szeth; also, I think Teft and/or Sigzil will pave the way for this upgrade. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don_karma_II Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 If we assume the Windrunners' Third Ideal is related to leadership (which I find an easy assumption), then it sounds unlikely that Kaladin will speak it during his encounter with Szeth - if said encounter actually happens. There are only two scenarios I can conceive that could inspire Kaladin's leadership during this fight: The former bridgemen want to join in on the fun. Kaladin is initially reluctant (because he would be aware of the magnitude of the damage Szeth / a Windrunner / a Radiant can do), but goes through some internal monologue and decides that he will accept responsibility for them be their leader. Szeth, by some weird circumstance or a loophole in his contract decides he'd be perfectly fine if Kaladin brought the Windrunners order back from the grave and then proceeded to leading our favorite tragic Shin. Kaladin accepts - hence, leadership. And while not implausible, both of those scenarios are awfully specific. I don't think the Third Ideal will show up during the fight with Szeth. Plus, we already had one Ideal spoken in the midst of a battle. There is certainly something to be said about performing under pressure, but it's time for hard methodical research to also pay off. My belief is that while there should and will be some pressure on Kaladin when he finally speaks the Third Ideal, it won't be as deadly as a wild Szeth; also, I think Teft and/or Sigzil will pave the way for this upgrade. I agree, it won't be while fighting Szeth. I'm not sure Kaladin will be fighting alone for that matter. Adolin, Shallan and Jasnah could very well join Kaladin while fighting against Szeth. With Kaladin, Jasnah and Shallan working their surge binding set together to protect Dalinar. Shallan's big Shardblade reveal could be during the fight but not Kaladin's third ideal. Kaladin spoke the second ideal when he chose to protect Dalinar and his army and acting towards that cause. So here it might be when Kaladin decides to let go of Amaran's vengeance and concentrate towards leading the bridgemen form an effective and self sustaining group. When he decides to that maybe the third ideal will come to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I don't know about all the Surgebinders working their mojo together - it feels too premature. Kaladin doesn't sound like a person who would go flaunting his abilities in the face of every person in Camp Kholin. Come to think of it, Jasnah is pretty much in the same boat. And if Shallan is in a different one, it is swimming right next to the one Kaladin and Jasnah are in. So no, I think Surgebinding will have to wait too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I like the sound of this one best of those I've heard so far. Touched... Personally I like the sound of "I will lead others to act with honour." The best I've been able to come up with is "I will inspire those who lack faith". Argent's exposition fits pretty well for me also. If we assume the Windrunners' Third Ideal is related to leadership ... I see some foreshadowing: Still, Teft looked completely in control. Comfortably so. This was right. Something about it was just… right. A swarm of small glowing orbs materialized around Kaladin’s head, spren the shape of golden spheres that darted this way and that. He started, looking at them. Gloryspren. Storms. He felt as if he hadn’t seen the like in years. Syl zipped up into the air and joined them, giggling and spinning around Kaladin’s head. “Feeling proud of yourself?” “Teft,” Kaladin said. “He’s a leader.” Kaladin stepped up to him, squatting down. “You’re a warrior, Rock. I saw it in Teft, and you can say whatever you want, but I see it in you.” “You’ll do a fine job, Teft, I won’t have you saying otherwise. We have resources now. No more scrimping for every last sphere. You’ll train those lads, and you’ll do it right.” 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 There has been a bit of thought from Kaladin on being distinguished and treated differently from others. He mentions that he has come to accept that difference, so it might be something about taking responsibility or bearing the burden of leadership for those that follow. It could also be one about integrity. A thought like "I have to lead people in a way that does not compromise my code of ethics or theirs." Something about the guiding aspect of leading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dionysus Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) I definitely think it will be related to leadership. I also think it is pretty clear from the teaser chapters that Kaladin's story arc in WoR will be about accepting the burden of leadership, definitely for the Bridgeman and potentially for establishing the new KRs. Maybe something like "I will lead others along the righteous path." Edited January 30, 2014 by dionysus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raevun Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 With the discovery of Parshendi spies amongst the warcamps, the reactions to Shen could very well spur the third ideal. Once the spies are discovered, a systematic purge of the camps seems to be the most likely thing to happen, which puts Shen in considerable danger. Kaladin has stuck with him from the outset and assuming that Shen is not actually a spy, it follows character that Kaladin will protect him with all that he has, whether it's from bridgeman, soldier or highlord. Though, I personally agree with that it will occur from dealing with Amaram, or how he stops his men seeking vengeance on his behalf. It won't surprise me if he lets it slip to one of his men his backstory with Amaram, and they'll seek vengeance with zeal. Steering them away from that will take extreme leadership skills to say the least, considering how devoted Bridge Four are to Kaladin. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromptj Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 How about "I will lead those who need guidance" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 "I will uphold those who seek redemption" That could take care of both Szeth and Amaram in one neat little bundle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Rose Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I like the idea the ideal will involve leading and be connected to his confronting Amaram. I'm thinking something like "I will lead others to act with honor through example" 1. Fits with Nohadion's parable about carrying the stone. I'm pretty sure but not positive that each of the 40 parables relates to one KR ideal. 2. Kal's new besty, Moash, seems to think violent vengeance is a good idea and wants revenge on someone. 3. With the revelations about Amaram, as much as I'd like to see him hurt/disgraced it seems like he is being built up to know or do something important. 4. Kaladin will have a moment where he could disgrace/kill Amaram while Moash is watching. He knows Moash's background and being a little more objective knows it would be wrong for Moash to act on it. This leads him to the realization that the revenge he wants would not be honorable (for some reason) and speaks an ideal ... Probably helping Amaram. But somehow what Amaram did will come out anyway and he won't come out unscathed. Clearly this is wild speculation, but I like it. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 "I will keep calm and carry on" 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FingerstyleFunk Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 1. Fits with Nohadion's parable about carrying the stone. I'm pretty sure but not positive that each of the 40 parables relates to one KR ideal. Huh. That's some math I hadn't caught on to before. 40 parables = 10 orders * 4 unique ideals, plus the one common ideal. Hard to imagine it's not significant. If only we knew what more than a few of them actually are... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowers Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I too think it'll be related to Kaladin saving/helping Amaram. I like the idea of leading by example. It does fit nicely with what we know of Nohadon, and surely not every windrunner was a leader. I say Kaladin will somehow be forced to save Amaram. I think he'll save him from Szeth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I think that the second and third ideals are about protecting, so my guess is "I will uphold what was promised". In my opinion Kaladin conflict in this books will be about do what he must even if he didn't want to do it or are afraid to do it. It will be about put aside personal felling and act with honor even when that put you in a place where you have let go of yout feeling (hate revenge). So when Kaladin admit what he are even when he are afraided of be persecuted and even that don't trust the person that are at his side (Amaram) he will understand the third Ideal. My take on the matter anyway =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorna Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 I like the idea of the 40 parables reflecting the ideals. Didn't Dalinar listen to a reading of one about candles and individual potential? Someone help me with the quote? I can't pull it up right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilKetchupCow Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 I like the leadership path we are on here. I think it will come after Kaladin tells people about his surgebindings. It may be Dalinar, or it maybe the rest of the former bridgemen. I think the latter is more likely. "I will lead the willing honestly" or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) I like the idea of the 40 parables reflecting the ideals. Didn't Dalinar listen to a reading of one about candles and individual potential? Someone help me with the quote? I can't pull it up right now. I've transcribed the passage from the in-world Way if Kings, intentionally excluding everything else: I stood in the darkened monestary chamber, its far reaches painted with pools of black where the light did not wander. I sat on the floor, thinking of that dark, that Unseen. I could not know, for certain, what was hidden in that night. I suspected there were walls, sturdy and thick, but I could I know without seeing? When all was hidden, what could a man rely on as True? Candle flames. A dozen candles burned themselves to death on the shelf before me. Each of my breaths made them tremble. To them, I was a behemoth, to frighten and destroy. And yet, if I strayed too close, they could destroy me. My invisible breath, the pulses of life that flowed in and out, could end them freely, while my fingers could not do the same without being repaid in pain. I understood in a moment of stillness. Those candle flames were like the lives of men. So fragile. So deadly.Left alone, they lit and warmed. Let run rampant, they would destroy the very things they were meant to illuminate. Embryonic bonfires, each bearing a seed of destruction so potent that it could crumble entire cities and dash kings to their knees. In later years, my mind would return to that calm silent evening, when I stared at rows of living lights. And I would understand. To be given loyalty is to be infused like a gemstone, to be granted the frightful license to destroy not only one's self, but all within one's care. Edited January 31, 2014 by Aether 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilKetchupCow Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Given Aether's work, I would say it would be after Kaladin stops Moash or turns him from his path of vengeance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsk Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 There are some more ideals in Chapter 28. Dalinar remembers them from the Way of Kings when digging the latrine. Never fight other men except when forced to in war. Let your actions defend you, not your words. Expect honor from those you meet, and give them the chance to live up to it. Rule as you would be ruled. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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