Jasnah's spren

[11thorderknight]

Up until the new Jasnah prologue, there was a pretty clear pattern of what Radiant bonding spren were like. They all resembled some other form of common spren, like windspren, vinespren, or lightspren, except that they gained consciousness. Notably, they are all individuals, with one spren per surgebinder. The one exception was Shallan, who's spren were bizarre, did not manifest as any "natural" spren, and rolled in a pack. Now that we've seen Jasnah's spren, though, they definitely resemble Shallan's much more than those of Kaladin/Lift/Ym. Of note, both Jasnah's and Shallan's surges grant access to Shadesmar. 

 

So - are these "shadowspren" another subgroup of Cryptics, like Shallan's (and Elhokar's) line-heads? Do all Orders with Shadesmar access have these group spren, as opposed to individual spren? Given that there's pretty strong evidence that Transportation (not just Transformation) will involve Shadesmar, Order 8 is going to have to have these as well. That's three orders going to Shadesmar, all three being next to each other on the chart, and all of them being on the left side. We know also that one of the remaining surges on that side of the chart is "surface tension" though that's not it's real name. But, that surge will allow a surgebinder to modify the shape of an object. According to Cosmere knowledge, an objects "shape" (or "form"! if you will) should be related to the Cognitive Realm. If you think about it, a "chair" or a "window" gains its Cognitive identity from it's physical shape. It's pretty plausible, then, that this surge will also require Shadesmar access. That will then add the Stonewards to the group of Radiants with Shadesmar access, completing the entire left side of the chart.

 

So....what if all the individual spren like Syl are Honorspren and grant Physical Realm surges on the right side, and all the group spren like the line-heads and oily shadows are Cryptics and grant Cognitive Realm surges on the left side?

[Harsh Varia]

Great theory. I also wondered about her spren. I wonder if they come as a group but only one bonds. If I remember correctly only one of the spren bowed their head to jasnah.

[hoser]

That seems like a very interesting pattern.  I like it!.  I would like to add a few thoughts.

 

IIRC, there is word that Gravity is somehow a spiritual attribute, so it might be that what you are calling Physical Realm changes are achieved by making changes to the spiritual realm and the Cognitive Realm surges are achieved by making changes to the Cognitive Realm.

 

Learned, which might be the most cognitive attribute, is associated with Palah and on the "edge" of the Physical/Spiritual side. It is opposite pious, maybe the most spiritual, associated with Ishi, which is on the other "edge".

 

I can convince myself that some of the lower surges relate to Cultivation (Transformation, Growth, Division), so Top=Honor, Bottom=Cultivation might be an additional way to look at the chart (please note the word additional, as I do not mean to suggest this as an alternate, but rather a supplement to the original idea). 

 

Minor nitpick: I believe the surface tension surge might allow one to modify the stiffness of an object more than the shape. 

[11thorderknight]

I guess we don't know exactly what ST will do, but if you modify stiffness to make an object soft and malleable, that will let you alter its shape.

[Aether]

Am I the only one who sees the slightly... provocative... possible uses of the TS surge?

[hoser]

I guess we don't know exactly what ST will do, but if you modify stiffness to make an object soft and malleable, that will let you alter its shape.

Sure, but are you then using the surge to modify the shape? Or is it whatever you do to the object after softening it that modifies the shape?  If you make it harder, that will sort of be the opposite of modifying the shape.  

 

Am I the only one who sees the slightly... provocative... possible uses of the TS surge?

I didn't until you pointed it out. ... Uh, thanks?  I guess the fabrial that implements the surge would be quite valuable in this world.

[Shardbearer]

The way I picture ST is like the difference between a ribbon, an aluminum measuring tape, and a yardstick. You arent really changing the shape of an item, just making it more or less flexible.

[skaa]

Back on topic, one thing I realized is that we've already seen the shadowspren's "reverse shadow" effect before: Axies the Collector also has it, along with (presumably) every other Aimian. I don't know if this means that Aimians also have shadowspren bonded to them, or that they could also access Shadesmar the way Jasnah does.

 

We know that Axies could modify his body at will (create tattoos, suspend his own sense of smell, heal bruises, cure headaches, etc). I'm starting to think that perhaps this power is just a specialized form of Soulcasting, wherein the user Soulcasts individual cells in his own body, granting direct control over minute biological functions.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Another thing that the "shadowspren" reminded me of is the Midnight Essence of the Starfalls chapter. They're both black and liquidy, and the "slick" characteristic of the Midnight Essence might be due to a layer of oil. Could the Midnight Essences actually be shadowspren corrupted by the Unmade? Or maybe I'm wrong and they are just the Vapor/Smoke equivalent of Talus/Stone-based Thunderclasts, I don't know.

 

But anyway, this lead me to another idea, this time connected to the concept of "Elsecalling". We see that Jasnah can control the movement of Taln's statue in Shadesmar. What if this control can also be done on the Physical realm? If so, she could Soulcast an ordinary rock on the Physical realm into something human-shaped and basically create a rock puppet of sorts. Maybe this is what Elsecallers were best known for: controlling golems ("Elses"?) made from various Essences. I guess the main difference between this power and what the Unmade could do is that Elsecallers cannot bring life to their golems or make them semi-independent the way Midnight Essences and Thunderclasts seem to be.

 

Okay, I guess that's enough speculation for now.

 

Update: I added stuff to one of my theories about spren to reflect the new info we've gotten recently about these creatures, including Jasnah's "shadowspren".

Edited January 12, 2014 by skaa

[Swimmingly]

It seems to me that the guys with ST and Pressure are basically improvisation extrordinaire. Got a rock and a rope? No, it's a ten-foot pole with a rock on and you're clubbing people with it. Two pieces of cloth? You mean these rigid handholds you can use like climbing claws? Opponent wearing cloth clothes? It seems that they're glowing gently and rigid as a rock suddenly. You could even have a fabric weapon, if you wanted to be a badass. On the other hand, surface tension might do just that: allow you to make liquids into a rubbery but firm running surface, or make the air coalesce into hard armour.

[skaa]

LOL, I was so focused on Jasnah's spren that I completely missed 11thorderknight's theory about the left and right sides of the KR chart. So that's why you guys keep talking about the "surface tension" surge.

 

I'm intrigued by the possibility that Stonewards could access Shadesmar. You see, I'm starting to espouse the Dalinar is a Stoneward theory, and I remember that in Dalinar's first vision (which he revisited near the end of WoK), he was in a "field of dull, bone-white rock... extending in all directions, off into eternity," with smoke shaped like objects rising from the ground towards a darkened sky. I've once speculated that this was just another manifestation of Shadesmar. The "sea-of-glass-beads" Shadesmar could just be how Soulcasters like Lightweavers and Elsecallers experience the Cognitive realm, while other people who can access the realm (e.g. Hoid, members of the 17th Shard, etc.) experience it in other ways, as do (if my hunch is correct) Stonewards.

Edited January 12, 2014 by skaa

[Stoneward]

I was actually just theorizing about the surge chart the other day and came up with a similar conclusion.

I think that all surges and orders on the left side of the chart interact with the cognitive realm in some way. Friction, (nuclear?) division, and gravity all seem to be physical properties, so I was guessing that the right side was influencing the physical realm, which would leave the center surges and orders for the spiritual realm.

If we do know for sure that gravity is spiritual, it would throw a hole in the idea. We do, however, have WoB stating that shardblade wounds, which cause damage in the spiritual realm, can be healed by some of the Radient orders. If the Growth surge affects the spiritual realm, that strengthens the theory.

Upvote to the OP for thinking like me.

[Moogle]

To quote the Ars Arcanum from Alloy of Law:

 

Feruchemy is an end-neutral art, meaning that power is neither gained nor lost. The art also requires metal as a focus, but instead of being consumed, the metal acts as a medium by which abilities within the practitioner are shuttled through time. Invest that metal on one day, withdraw the power on another day. It is a well-rounded art, with some feelers in the Physical, some in the Cognitive, and even some in the Spiritual.
...

Hemalurgy is an end-negative art. Some power is lost in the practice of it. Though many through history have maligned it as an “evil” art, none of the Investitures are actually evil. At its core, Hemalurgy deals with removing abilities—or attributes—from one person and bestowing them on another. It is primarily concerned with things of the Spiritual realm,

 

Allomancy's power's are not brought up as being Physical/Cognitive/Spiritual, interestingly. I'm fairly confident it's not a stretch to say that it's got all three, though, since there's almost certainly something Spiritual about time/enhancement metals.

 

Anyways, we know that systems having all three powers would not be uncommon to the author of the Ars Arcanum, so I highly doubt we'll be able to section the Surgebinding Chart into nice halves of Physical and Cognitive. Pity, because Vorinism like symmetry. Still, we can use symmetry as a way to guess!

 

Surges and their types:

• Gravity: Spiritual, as per interviews.
• Pressure: Unknown. Physical, probably.
• Surface Tension: Unknown. Guessing Physical, could be Cognitive.
• Transportation: Unknown. I'd argue Spiritual, because it has to do with how things are connected, which is how I justify Gravity being Spiritual to myself, but it could be any of the three.
• Soulcasting: Unknown. I would argue Spiritual, since it changes an object's essence, not just how it is viewed. It's also different than Forgery, which is Cognitive.
• Illumination: Unknown, probably Cognitive because it is based on how something is viewed, and light is most certainly not Physical because of how the time bubbles in Mistborn work.
• Growth: Unknown. I'm guessing Cognitive; Spiritual has to do with the essence of something, and a plant is a plant, no matter if it's a seedling or a tree. This is to say, it has a plant form or something. Feruchemical gold healing is Cognitive, so that's more evidence in favor of this. Physical would be awkward but workable.
• Friction: Unknown. Guessing Spiritual, because it has to do with how things are connected, and Friction is the essence of this.
• Division: Unknown. Guessing Spiritual, since it 'disconnects' things, and also it's how Shardblades work.

I took a moment to label them, on a suspicion that the huge white lines connecting the Orders would cordon the various Realms each power affects, but there's just far too many unknowns.

 

Starting with 1 as Pressure, and ending off with 10 as Surface Tension, going clockwise, my favorite way to section things off is the following:

1. Physical (Pressure)
2. Spiritual (Gravity)
3. Spiritual (Division)
4. Spiritual (Friction)
5. Cognitive (Growth)
6. Cognitive (Illumination)
7. Spiritual (Transformation)
8. Spiritual (Transportation)
9. Spiritual (Unknown Surge)
10. Physical (Surface Tension)

Look at how it's a palindrome, like divine Alethi names. Psssccsssp. It establishes a basic symmetry, not to mention how it matches up the two lizards (physical head, spiritual body, cognitive feet, sorta), and I am easily capable of arguing for each Surge being where it is. It also sections things into quadrants, a pattern we've seen before in Mistborn. I think this theory is very viable. Have a lazy diagram:

 

Edited January 12, 2014 by Moogle

[marianmi]

I'm intrigued by the possibility that Stonewards could access Shadesmar. You see, I'm starting to espouse the Dalinar is a Stoneward theory, and I remember that in Dalinar's first vision (which he revisited near the end of WoK), he was in a "field of dull, bone-white rock... extending in all directions, off into eternity," with smoke shaped like objects rising from the ground towards a darkened sky. I've once speculated that this was just another manifestation of Shadesmar. The "sea-of-glass-beads" Shadesmar could just be how Soulcasters like Lightweavers and Elsecallers experience the Cognitive realm, while other people who can access the realm (e.g. Hoid, members of the 17th Shard, etc.) experience it in other ways, as do (if my hunch is correct) Stonewards.

 

 

Not this again.

Dalinar is a Bondsmith (order #8 or #10), not a Stoneward. In that vision, he sees that Kholinar *might* become in the physical.

 

Single vs. multiple spren:

* with the death of Tanavast, it is possible 100% honorspren are either all lost in physical (like Syl was), or are all dead (except those that were lost in physical before he was splintered), or are more reluctant to bond with humans now because it was the human's fault Tanavast died. Whatever the scenario, Syl looks like an outcast of the current spren society.

* Wyndle was sent to Lift alone.

* maybe some spren "travel" in packs (or maybe just cryptics travel in packs). maybe cryptics don't lose their minds when they travel between shadesmar and physical, so they can do this as often as they want. or maybe spren giving access to shadesmar (cryptics or not) don't need to be in the physical (so we see a pack of spren in shadesmar). Nevertheless, only one spren binds with a surgebinder (Jasnah with the guy with the sword, Shallan with the one who's only voice she hears).

 

From WoB, there might be spren that are a mix between shards. My theory about the chart above is that the 4 corners are pure spren (windrunners pure honor, edgedancers pure cultivation, lightweavers pure cryptics), while the in-between are mixed spren (e.g. skybreakers and dustbringers are a mix of honor and cultivation). I am very curios on more info on Stonewardens spren though before starting to root for my theory

[skaa]

Not this again.

Dalinar is a Bondsmith (order #8 or #10), not a Stoneward.

 

Ah, I almost forgot about that. I hope you can forgive me for being so irritatingly wrong.

 

 

In that vision, he sees that Kholinar *might* become in the physical.

 

That was after the "place of smoke" scene that I was referring to. Even if Dalinar is Order 8 (which, according to 11thorderknight's theory, can also access Shadesmar), I don't see how that invalidates my theory that the place of smoke is another way of experiencing Shadesmar.

Edited January 13, 2014 by skaa

[marianmi]

That was after the "place of smoke" scene that I was referring to. Even if Dalinar is Order 8 (which, according to 11thorderknight's theory, can also access Shadesmar), I don't see how that invalidates my theory that the place of smoke is another way of experiencing Shadesmar.

 

Because there is no proof that Dalinar is in Shadesmar when he's having his visions. My bet is that he's NOT in Shadesmar, otherwise there would be lots of surgebinders seeing those visions.

Edited January 13, 2014 by marianmi

[skaa]

Because there is no proof that Dalinar is in Shadesmar when he's having his visions. My bet is that he's NOT in Shadesmar, otherwise there would be lots of surgebinders seeing those visions.

 

I'm not saying that all Dalinar's visions are in Shadesmar. I was speculating that the place of smoke scene, specifically, was a vision of Shadesmar. My main reasons are that (1) the smoke-like things seem to represent real objects on the Physical Realm, just as the glass beads in the Soulcaster Shadesmar do, and (2) the place sure as hell doesn't look like any ordinary place on Roshar.

 

No, I'm afraid I don't have any definite proof to show you. It's just an idea that I thought other people here might be interested in hearing, as it pertains to the whole non-Soulcasting KR Orders being able to access Shadesmar concept of the OP.

[marianmi]

(2) the place sure as hell doesn't look like any ordinary place on Roshar.

 

Dalinar recognized it as (physical) Kholinar, destroyed. And it looked like a "shattering" was coming.

[Shardlet]

Because there is no proof that Dalinar is in Shadesmar when he's having his visions. My bet is that he's NOT in Shadesmar, otherwise there would be lots of surgebinders seeing those visions.

 

If there was proof, then it would not be couched as a theory.  Likewise, though, there is no proof that Skaa is wrong.  Even if he was only seeing a destroyed Kholinar in potentia, there is no reason why this could not be being shown to him in Shadesmar.  I would suggest that his visions are a mix of cognitive and spiritual.  That being the case, Shadesmar could be the theater.

[Kyzkle]

Single vs. multiple spren:

* with the death of Tanavast, it is possible 100% honorspren are either all lost in physical (like Syl was), or are all dead (except those that were lost in physical before he was splintered), or are more reluctant to bond with humans now because it was the human's fault Tanavast died. Whatever the scenario, Syl looks like an outcast of the current spren society.

* Wyndle was sent to Lift alone.

* maybe some spren "travel" in packs (or maybe just cryptics travel in packs). maybe cryptics don't lose their minds when they travel between shadesmar and physical, so they can do this as often as they want. or maybe spren giving access to shadesmar (cryptics or not) don't need to be in the physical (so we see a pack of spren in shadesmar). Nevertheless, only one spren binds with a surgebinder (Jasnah with the guy with the sword, Shallan with the one who's only voice she hears).

 

I don't buy that the betrayal the spren talk about is the death of Tanavast. I don't think the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact would have sit well with Honor had he been alive, so I think it's safe to say that he died before then. Since we know the Recreance happened long after this, we know that spren were still bonding with humans after Honor died.

 

My bet is that something we haven't seen happened to the Radiants to make them betray the spren, then AFTER the spren abandoned them, they were forced to give up being Radiants. Pretty much pure conjecture, but I think it makes sense...

 

I also think that the politics behind the spren returning are a little more complicated than a lot of people are making it seem. Wyndle was SENT to bond with Lift, Ivory went against his people (or spren, as it were) and I believe it appears that Shallan's spren was actually sent by a group of peers. Let me run this theory by you guys: Conjecture Ahead!

Six years ago, the spren began to hear the rumblings of trouble on the horizon. Just like the physical world, it was an unpopular idea and shrugged off by most. Ivory somehow becomes convinced that something needs to be done and is the first spren in generations to bond with a human; this actually mirrors Jasnah's suspicions and actions perfectly, which is possibly why he chose to bond with her. Fast forward a few years and the spren are still against trusting humans, but the fear is spreading. The Nightwatcher gives Lift incredible abilities and powers, and a group of spren decide that she is the perfect test case for returning to the physical world. They send Wyndle to bond with her while she is young in order to mold her into a Radiant they know won't betray them, as well as to ensure her unique abilities aren't turned against them (as Lift is partially in the cognitive realm). This is the first endorsed bonding for the spren, and is slowly followed up on by a few individual spren with the same motivation as Ivory (primarily fear).

 

I believe the next big event in this chain is the bonding of Syl. Jasnah mentions that Honorspren and Cryptics are having some political differences, which leads me to believe that Shallan's bonding was actually triggered by Kaladin's. Once the Honorspren had a bonded human, it essentially gave them an "agent" in the physical world to work toward there interests (encouraging more honor in others, I assume), which put them in a better position than the Cryptics. To even things out the Cryptics needed to bond a human, but Cryptics being Cryptics, they didn't just go and bond with Shallan: they began pushing her towards jasnah to teach her, then bond her once they're sure she will make an effective candidate.

 

Now for my evidence: This is mostly based on the timeline of bondings, but I could be wrong on my assumption of Lift's bonding. Jasnah's and Kaladin's are laid out pretty clearly, and I stand by my analysis of Shallan's. I believe the first time they take her to Shadesmar, it was done entirely on their own, like Syl binding people's shoes and other such pranks. The second time, they mention that the stronger her truth, the stronger "the bond" will be. I think this was the actual moment of her bonding.

 

Second, smaller theory: I don't believe Jasnah when she says "Liespren" is a more accurate name. Rather, Their fractal patterns and search for truths seem more related to illusions or at the very least, complexity (in the information entropy sense). By her own admission, Jasnah doesn't actually know much about Cryptics; probably just second hand information from other spren. Given there apparent power in shadesmar and their opposition to honorspren, it seems like they prefer to keep things obfuscated and complicated. My analysis of their behavior: by bonding Shallan, I think we can assume they have some preference for her type of personality. Shallan isn't a compulsive liar creating false truths, but a passive liar who simply omits great secrets. She also has a penchant for twisting the words of others; it's not lying, it's looking at a twisted version of reality, just like the twisted, impossible pattern. Looking at Hoid (another confirmed Lightweaver), it's the same way: a love for twisting the truth around for fun, but harboring more secrets than anything save Adonalsium itself (and even that may not be true...).

Anyway, my rambling is over. Clearly, that's been distracting me since tor released the new chapters. Not that I'm complaining, but they've really destroyed my productivity for the last week or so. Thoughts?

[Swimmingly]

I don't buy that the betrayal the spren talk about is the death of Tanavast. I don't think the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact would have sit well with Honor had he been alive, so I think it's safe to say that he died before then. Since we know the Recreance happened long after this, we know that spren were still bonding with humans after Honor died.

My bet is that something we haven't seen happened to the Radiants to make them betray the spren, then AFTER the spren abandoned them, they were forced to give up being Radiants. Pretty much pure conjecture, but I think it makes sense...

I also think that the politics behind the spren returning are a little more complicated than a lot of people are making it seem. Wyndle was SENT to bond with Lift, Ivory went against his people (or spren, as it were) and I believe it appears that Shallan's spren was actually sent by a group of peers. Let me run this theory by you guys: Conjecture Ahead!

Six years ago, the spren began to hear the rumblings of trouble on the horizon. Just like the physical world, it was an unpopular idea and shrugged off by most. Ivory somehow becomes convinced that something needs to be done and is the first spren in generations to bond with a human; this actually mirrors Jasnah's suspicions and actions perfectly, which is possibly why he chose to bond with her. Fast forward a few years and the spren are still against trusting humans, but the fear is spreading. The Nightwatcher gives Lift incredible abilities and powers, and a group of spren decide that she is the perfect test case for returning to the physical world. They send Wyndle to bond with her while she is young in order to mold her into a Radiant they know won't betray them, as well as to ensure her unique abilities aren't turned against them (as Lift is partially in the cognitive realm). This is the first endorsed bonding for the spren, and is slowly followed up on by a few individual spren with the same motivation as Ivory (primarily fear).

I believe the next big event in this chain is the bonding of Syl. Jasnah mentions that Honorspren and Cryptics are having some political differences, which leads me to believe that Shallan's bonding was actually triggered by Kaladin's. Once the Honorspren had a bonded human, it essentially gave them an "agent" in the physical world to work toward there interests (encouraging more honor in others, I assume), which put them in a better position than the Cryptics. To even things out the Cryptics needed to bond a human, but Cryptics being Cryptics, they didn't just go and bond with Shallan: they began pushing her towards jasnah to teach her, then bond her once they're sure she will make an effective candidate.

Now for my evidence: This is mostly based on the timeline of bondings, but I could be wrong on my assumption of Lift's bonding. Jasnah's and Kaladin's are laid out pretty clearly, and I stand by my analysis of Shallan's. I believe the first time they take her to Shadesmar, it was done entirely on their own, like Syl binding people's shoes and other such pranks. The second time, they mention that the stronger her truth, the stronger "the bond" will be. I think this was the actual moment of her bonding.

Second, smaller theory: I don't believe Jasnah when she says "Liespren" is a more accurate name. Rather, Their fractal patterns and search for truths seem more related to illusions or at the very least, complexity (in the information entropy sense). By her own admission, Jasnah doesn't actually know much about Cryptics; probably just second hand information from other spren. Given there apparent power in shadesmar and their opposition to honorspren, it seems like they prefer to keep things obfuscated and complicated. My analysis of their behavior: by bonding Shallan, I think we can assume they have some preference for her type of personality. Shallan isn't a compulsive liar creating false truths, but a passive liar who simply omits great secrets. She also has a penchant for twisting the words of others; it's not lying, it's looking at a twisted version of reality, just like the twisted, impossible pattern. Looking at Hoid (another confirmed Lightweaver), it's the same way: a love for twisting the truth around for fun, but harboring more secrets than anything save Adonalsium itself (and even that may not be true...).

Anyway, my rambling is over. Clearly, that's been distracting me since tor released the new chapters. Not that I'm complaining, but they've really destroyed my productivity for the last week or so. Thoughts?

So the liespren are attracted to storytellers who enjoy creating needlessly complex stories and imaginary worlds? I think Brandon should start looking for weird patterns on his monitor.

[shadewolf]

@Kyzkle: Hmmn, I don't really believe your first theory of Ivory forming a bond with Jasnah causing the rest of the bonds to be formed for two reasons. One it would imply that Darkness, and his order, weren't hunting surgebinders until quite recently, because nobody would've formed a nehel bond till Jasnah did. I think an extremely small amount of bonds were still being formed, because some random spren was interested in someone, but nowhere near the amount that has happened after galivar's death. My second reason is Jasnah's explanation about why the old ways are coming back; which is due to the inpending danger of a desolation. I think this is the primary reason why we see an influx. I feel that all the spren clans were looking for potential champions to bond with, and that political infighting isn't directly involved.

 

Wow where was hoid confirmed to be a lightweaver? That would explain why syl doesn't like him, I was wondering why, hoid didn't seem like a bad person to me.

Edited January 15, 2014 by shadewolf

[marianmi]

Hoid is not a lightweaver, he did a type of magic called "lightweaving", which was practised on Yolen and does not exist on Roshar.

The terms are the same, but they mean different thing.

[11thorderknight]

Two things - first off, there is WoB that Honor was alive at the Recreance.

 

Secondly.....we now know that both Jasnah and Shallan have a bond with an individual spren. This makes a lot more sense, and is consistent with what we've seen of other orders. Adding this up with what we got from Wyndle, and it sounds like spren can follow people around as a group, or ring, but then ultimately a single one will form the bond.

[EvilKetchupCow]

Two things - first off, there is WoB that Honor was alive at the Recreance.

 

Secondly.....we now know that both Jasnah and Shallan have a bond with an individual spren. This makes a lot more sense, and is consistent with what we've seen of other orders. Adding this up with what we got from Wyndle, and it sounds like spren can follow people around as a group, or ring, but then ultimately a single one will form the bond.

 

What if "the greater the truth, the greater the bond", indicates that a different spreen would bond with her. What if the political position of that individual spreen has an effect on the strength of the bond and the power that it gives?

[KiManiak]

I don't think the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact would have sit well with Honor had he been alive, so I think it's safe to say that he died before then...

 

My bet is that something we haven't seen happened to the Radiants to make them betray the spren, then AFTER the spren abandoned them, they were forced to give up being Radiants...

 

I don't believe Jasnah when she says "Liespren" is a more accurate name...

I believe the next big event in this chain is the bonding of Syl. Jasnah mentions that Honorspren and Cryptics are having some political differences, which leads me to believe that Shallan's bonding was actually triggered by Kaladin's...To even things out the Cryptics needed to bond a human... 

 

I’m sorry I missed this or I would have responded yesterday.

 

Kyzkle – First off, I like how much effort and consideration you appear to have put in to develop the theory, so Upvote For You! 

 

However, a few things:

 

1)      I see it’s already been mentioned that WoB is Tanavast was alive at the Recreance; I’m curious as to what evidence there would be that he was even dead before the breaking of the Oathpact.  Whether he liked it or not, I would assume the Heralds were always free to make the choice to no longer hold to their oaths.  I don’t see an entity named “Honor” denying his Heralds the free will necessary to hold to their oaths.  Otherwise, it’s not honor that would keep them to their oath; it would be a lack of ability to do anything else.

 

2)      It’s possible the Radiants betrayed the spren before the Day of Recreance, but what then would you attribute to Dalinar noting, “A terrible feeling struck him.  A sense of immense tragedy, of pain and betrayal…What was that dreadful feeling, that screaming he swore he could almost hear?”  This (and the glow slowly fading from the Blades) makes a pretty strong argument for the severing of the bond between at least 300 Radiants and their spren, as well as the spren’s feelings of great betrayal.

 

3)      I think it’s funny that you think Jasnah is lying about the name “Liespren.”  Intentional or not, that was pretty amusing.  Although I would have to ask, if you don’t believe Jasnah is being honest about the name of Shallan’s spren, why would you believe Jasnah’s story about the rest?

 

4)      I really do like your theory about Cryptics balancing out Kaladin’s bonding of an Honorspren with Shallan’s bonding of a Cryptic.   I think there are some logical questions (Are the Cryptics, or any spren in Shadesmar, aware when any other spren bond with a human, no matter the distance in the Physical Realm?  Was Syl acting as an agent of other Honorspren when she bonded Kaladin?), but I’m definitely intrigued by a possible rivalry or competition between Honorspren and Cryptics.

 

5)      I agree with Shadewolf about having doubts that Ivory and Jasnah were the first bonded pairing in generations.

 

 

Even though I disagree with most of it, I do like where you are going with some of this.  Brandon often writes his characters to be not-fully-informed narrators (or whatever the technical term is).  I am comfortable questioning the validity of "facts," told to us by Jasnah, especially when in the next breath she's communicating (apparently) erroneous information regarding Cultivation and Honor.