Betrayal and the death of ideas

[FirstSelector]

I almost hesitate to call this a full-fledged theory, so instead we'll go with theoretical musing.
 

Main idea: The disbanding of the Knights Radiant is the betrayal spoke of by the spren.  This caused the "death" of their corresponding Nahel spren.

 

In the new material released, we learn from Shallan's perspective that mankind betrayed the spren in ancient times.  This causes the spren to be hesitant around Jasnah, and some number of spren may have died in the process.  Such an event would very likely have a physical-world component, and based on the way Jasnah describes it the event must have been catastrophic.

 

We then consider several such events that may be construed as betrayal:

 

1) The Heralds abandoning the Oathpact: I find this unlikely since there has been no evidence that the Heralds have any dependent relationship with the spren, espescially at the moment that they walked away.

 

2) The Knights Radiant disband: This is by far my favorite option because it explains the notion of "death."  If we use the definition that spren are living ideas, then to abandon an idea and start acting against it would be its "death."  In this case, I find it likely that the betrayal coincides with the Knights abandoning their oaths.  However, if the Knights Radiant really did begin to slip before their downfall, it could have been a slow process.

 

We now have a better understanding of the relationship of spren and sentient beings - the latter provide concepts that the spren use to forge their world.  Since the Knights Radiant must truly believe in what they are doing and their actions must reflect that, one could only guess at the destruction caused by a huge number of people all giving up at the same time.  We note that even Syl talked to Kaladin about giving up their bond and its effect on her.

 

There is a counterargument here, in that the spren would likely have known that Surgebinding can cause a Desolation (in some way that has yet to be revealed).  The Knights may have been pushed to step down (from the Heralds, spren or both) but the spren would have known and approved ahead of time.

 

3) The corruption of Vorin theology: This one is a little out on a limb, but it can be cast as a betrayal and we have not discussed this as much.  I personally like the idea that the Sunmaker changed Vorin theology, and my claim is that Old Vorinism was correct.  When mankind goes from one belief system to a slightly different one, this would cause all sorts of changes in the Cognitive realm.  This could be construed by the spren as being a mighty betrayal to what is true.

 

Finally, what does it mean for an idea to die?  Ideas don't "die" in the sense that they cease to exist, but they can be abandoned by people and ignored.  I claim this is the state Kaladin fould Syl in originally - a vauge notion of being honorable without any real personality or memories.  Syl was bonded to one of the Knights that forake her oaths, causing Syl to lose everything that distinguished her, i. e. is effectively dead.

 

What about Wyndle?  Some of his quotes support the idea that there is a processs spren undergo to become bonding spren, which involves manifesting partially in the Physical realm and losing memories.  However, I think he is a new bonding spren, as opposed to Syl who had done the job before.  As such, we cannot use his quotes to explain Syl's state when Kaladin first started meeting her.

 

In conclusion, I claim that the Knights Radiant breaking their oaths and giving up on their Ideals is the betrayal spoken about by the spren which led to the "death" of many active bonding spren.

[Kurkistan]

I agree with your conclusion.

[Strife]

I also agree with your conclusion, from the information at hand that seems to be the most likely event.
 

If I may present a counterargument to your counterargument: *Crazy theory rambling starts*

It's likely that the individual spren bonded to the Radiants knew (because of the bond they shared) and were in agreement about what had to be done, i.e. the Recreance, but isn't it possible that the spren that reside in the cognitive realm didn't know and were therefore pretty upset what with all the mass betrayal and such?

While I can't really present any concrete facts to support this, from what we've seen so far neither Wyndle nor Syl seems to have any contact with the Cognitive realm.

 

Edit: But why wouldn't the Radiants check with the Cognitive realm first, surely they must've been able to, or maybe they didn't think to check it first because they weren't aware of the repercussions for the spren.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Strife

[marianmi]

I think this might be overly simple. And it does not account for all the facts.

Did all Nahel bonded spren died? Because I had the impression that Syl it's not at her first bond.

And if not all died, then who got to live? And what happened - did they go back in the cognitive? Stay and roam Roshar?

Going back to Syl - has she been roaming Roshar all this time since the Recreance, or she came from Shadesmar to Kaladin?

 

So here's another theory - what if there really was an internal strife in the KR orders, even fighting - and in that fight, KR killed other KR and their spren?

[The Count]

I like this theory a lot, the KR giving up the fight seem totally counter to the ideals, I can see this as the betrayal for sure.

 

Regarding Syl, we only know (or at least it is implied) that she was bonded before. That does not mean that she was bonded to one of the KR who gave up the fight.

 

If her previous KR died and she was released from the bond before the remaining KR gave up their shards, then she would not have perished with the rest of the spren at the Recreance.

 

Of course there are more assumptions and suppositions implied in the above than I can list, but still... food for thought.

[Cad]

I agree with your reasoning and conclusion that the KR were the cause of the betrayal. I'm suspicious of Jasnah's conclusions about the spren, though. Her atheistic viewpoint only allows her to view the spren through relations to humans when we know the spren are related to Honor, Cultivation and possibly Odium. While many of the things she told Shallan are likely true, her perspective of the truth differs from the real truth of Roshar/the Cosmere.

[dionysus]

I agree with this given the information we have.

 

I'll add that Syl was a KR spren and she didn't die, just was severely diminished and lost most of her cognitive function. So perhaps the spren didn't die, but they also didn't return to Shadesmar and basically are reduced to very basic spren. So the Spren in Shadesmar only thought they died.

[zandi]

I was wondering if this relationship (people's ideas being used in cog realm to be used by spren to build etc.) is why the Spren are motivated to help people in the physical world against Odium - negative ideas like hate would be just as destructive to their world in the cognitive realm.

[hoser]

The Recreance as the main betrayal makes sense.  While possible, I don't see that spren were killed, per se, at the Recreance, or that the Knights had some sort of civil war. 

What do the spren make of Darkness' activities?  I believe that Shardblades may be able to kill spren.  Is Darkness going after the spren as well as the surgebinders?

[Kier]

I think the Recreance was the Betrayal that was mentioned by the spren.

 

To me I think that the Spren who had bonds were allowed to grow concience beyond the normal spren and were the "leaders" then when they lost their bonds, the Cognitive realm fell into a semi-choaitc state becasue all of the larger bond spren became lesser spren with the loss of the bond... Or something like that.

[marianmi]

I think spren died at the Betrayal (not just became mindless).

The idea of Honor died then, and with it honorspren and possible Honor itself.

Edited January 9, 2014 by marianmi

[KiManiak]

As of now, I would support the belief that the breaking of the oaths on the Day of Recreance is the betrayal that the spren spoke of. 

 

I would clarify that the betrayal directly impacted all of the spren that were currently bonded to the Knights Radiant, but had a different and less direct -albeit still painful- impact to other spren, likely throughout the Cognitive Realm. 

 

Remember that during Dalinar’s flashback of the Day of Recreance, after the Knights Radiant had given up their Blades and Plate, the glow around the Shardblades began to fade.  Then:

 

 

A terrible feeling struck him.  A sense of immense tragedy, of pain and betrayal. (emphasis mine)  Stopping where he stood, he gasped, hand to his chest.  What was happening?  What was that dreadful feeling, that screaming he swore he could almost hear?

 

Also remember, that  on the Day of Recreance, Dalinar only saw the Stonewards and Windrunners give up their Plate and Blade. 

 

I would theorize that all spren linked to Windrunners (including Syl) were affected at that time (along with the spren for Stonewards, of course).  I don’t think they died; I think they were severely hurt and damaged, though.  I think this is how they lost themselves.  

 

It's likely this reverberated throughout the Cognitive Realm, and the other spren never forgot this betrayal.