Darkness manipulated the Parshendi to kill Gavilar

[marianmi]

It's a repost from another thread, but I think this theory deserves its own thread.

 

We now know (WoB) there is one Herald that has his blade (not Taln).

 

My guess is Nalan. Darkness.

 

 

I don’t like this. What we’ve done is wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. 

 

This can be understood as:

 

I don't like that the assasin has the blade. What we have done, manipulating the Parshendi to hire Szeth to kill Gavilar, is wrong. That guy has Jezrien's own blade. We shouldn't have let him keep it. We should have taken it away from him.

 

Now, why is Brandon tight-lipped about the last surge? What does it do?? My guesses: mind control or change of appearance.

 

I bet the other Herald with Darkness is Ishar.

 

PS: look very very closely at Nalan's right eye.

PSS: Now, doesn't the war with the Parshendi looks like Darkness's hand in stopping Gavilar recreating the KR orders?! What was Darkness doing there, if not making sure the war was started and Gavilar killed?

Edited December 18, 2013 by marianmi

[Shardlet]

Disclaimer: I am one of the few on this site who is not convinced that Darkness is Nalan.  

 

The word 'creature' gives me a lot of pause in being on board with them referring to Szeth.  I don't see what you mean my look closely at Nalan's right eye.  It looks pretty much the same as his left (Note: Nalan is the face associated with order two, the Skybreakers, on the KR chart).  Also, this may be semantics, the Parshendi did not "hire" Szeth.  They had his oathstone, which they left abandoned on the side of a road.  I would offer one more thing, the Eshonai reading seems to me to suggest that the Parshendi made the choice themselves.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Shardlet

[marianmi]

There are a few things left unanswered:

 

* how did the Parshendi, in a foreign land, found an assassin the same night they decided they needed one?

* how did they get Szeth's stone? There is evidence to suggest Lyss employed Szeth - how come she decided to give Szeth's stone to the Parshendi?

* why did the Parshendi abandoned the oathstone afterwards?

* why did they sent an assassin, and a foreign one at that? why didn't a Parshendi do it? did they know Szeth has a shardblade? Eshonai had one too... so why send an assassin then take credit? One of the reasons for an assassination is to hide the killer - but here they took credit. Why tehn don't do the deed themselves?

 

Hence my theory above: what if they were influenced, without them knowing, in doing this?

 

There is a very very good chance that the 2 ambassadors in Jasnah's prologue are Heralds. 

 

[Ash] is getting worse. We weren’t supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse?

 

The two and "Ash"  are part of the same group. Ash - Shallash - Heralds.

There has been the theory that Darkness is Nalan - a Herald. Darkness wants to stop surgebinders and the emergence of the KR. Gavilar wanted to recreate the KR orders.

 

It should be clear that Gavilar got the attention of Darkness. Gavilar wanted to create an order of surgebinders, whereas Darkness is killing every surgebinder he get his hands on.

 

All these angles come together in the first part of my theory - Darkness wanted to get rid of Gavilar, and manipulated the Parshendi to assasinate him. This would result in war, which would keep the Alethi busy from discovering what Gavilar was working on. And in the meantime, Darkness/Nalan could go around and continue his hunt.

 

But how did he manipulated the Parshendi? This is the second part of my theory.

He was with another Herald. One who could be able to use the surge that we know nothing about - Ishar!. Hence - what if that surge allows you to disguise yourself (and Ishar replaced a Parshendi, come up with the idea to kill Gavilar, and gave them Szeth's oathstone, knowing exactly what it was, and that Szeth has Jezrien's blade as well). Or if the surge allows you to influence the thoughts of others - then Ishar put these ideas in the Parshendi's minds...?

 

EDIT: Ishar's attribute is "GUIDING" ... did he do just that? GUIDE the Parshendi into war with humans?

Edited December 18, 2013 by marianmi

[bartbug]

Did you really just smiley face the Parshendi war with humans?!

[marianmi]

I smiley faced the irony ... guiding ...

[11thorderknight]

First, there is already a surge that allows disguises - Lightweaving, shared by orders 5 and 6. Secondly, there seems to be a consensus that order 10 is the Bondsmiths, which leaves the mystery surge to orders 8 and 9. Thirdly, Ishar is likely the drunk guy at the feast that says "have you seen me?"

[Moogle]

First, there is already a surge that allows disguises - Lightweaving, shared by orders 5 and 6. Secondly, there seems to be a consensus that order 10 is the Bondsmiths, which leaves the mystery surge to orders 8 and 9. Thirdly, Ishar is likely the drunk guy at the feast that says "have you seen me?"

 

I don't think there's a consensus on the Bondsmiths being Order 10, though I do have a standing oath to eat my hat if they aren't. I am also not sure the drunk guy is Ishar.

 

As to the actual theory, I could see Nalan as having manipulated the Parshendi into killing Gavilar. I doubt he has his Shardblade, though. I think as the Herald of Justice he wouldn't lie about leaving the Blade. I am confused on who the creature is supposed to be. Could be Szeth, could be Gavilar, could be a Parshendi...

[marianmi]

First, there is already a surge that allows disguises - Lightweaving, shared by orders 5 and 6. Secondly, there seems to be a consensus that order 10 is the Bondsmiths, which leaves the mystery surge to orders 8 and 9. Thirdly, Ishar is likely the drunk guy at the feast that says "have you seen me?"

 

 

2) I think the small consensus currently is that Bondsmiths are order 8... I personally voted for #10, although now I think the name "Bondsmith" fits better with resolute/builder (#8) than with pious/guiding (#10)

 

3) The unknown surge is shared by #9 and #10 https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ydL4T39EyU8/UlzVzEQfvWI/AAAAAAAAAu8/-pEx4sWbKG8/w1200-h795-no/Knight+Orders.jpg - Ishar is Herald #10.

 

4) Why is Ishar likely the drunk guy? Why not Jezrien? Or anyone else?

 

You put strong opinions on some things which are unproven and quite shaky. About lightweaving ... it might allow disguises or not. I also suggested some kind of mind control for last surge.

 

 

 

I am confused on who the creature is supposed to be. Could be Szeth, could be Gavilar, could be a Parshendi...

 

I don't think Gavilar with an Honorblade would have been beaten by Szeth.

And how else can Szeth's surgebinding can be explained? If not the Blade?

Edited December 18, 2013 by marianmi

[Moogle]

And how else can Szeth's surgebinding can be explained? If not the Blade?

 

 

Each Shard seemingly has a way to access Surgebinding on Roshar. Voidbinding, Surgebinding, perhaps the Old Magic. Szeth has been feeling a bit... odious, lately, hasn't he?

[Oudeis]

We now know (WoB) there is one Herald that has his blade (not Taln).

 

I had not yet heard this; can you link me to the WoB?

 

3) The unknown surge is shared by #9 and #10 https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ydL4T39EyU8/UlzVzEQfvWI/AAAAAAAAAu8/-pEx4sWbKG8/w1200-h795-no/Knight+Orders.jpg - Ishar is Herald #10.

 

 

That chart is outdated. Peter Ahlstrom made a few corrections. It's also worth noting that he pointed out that, until confirmed in the text, this is all very loose. Updated one is here, btw.

[marianmi]

If that's the latest chart, the surge would be Kelek's ... hmmmm

 

What would be the chances for those 2 to be Kelek and Nalan?

 

Could there be another way to manipulate the Parshendi into war?

 

I'm pretty sure Darkeness had a hand in setting up the war, and probably handed Szeth's stone to them.

 

Opinions?

[The Count]

We now know (WoB) there is one Herald that has his blade (not Taln).

Where did this come from? Can you link to the actual quote?

Not that I doubt you but the implications are pretty important. I mean where does that herald stand with relation to the Oathpact?

They definitely abandoned their blade before Kelek shows up in the prelude (he sees all the blades accounted for) So they must have gone back to retrieve it at some point in the intervening years...

As for the Manipulation of the Parshendi...

I am not so sure but for certain, the whole evening of Gavilar's death stinks like week old fish guts!

How did the Parshendi know that Szeth could possibly succeed against the Alethi King unless they know about his power?

How did they know what Gavilar was planning when he did not even tell his own brother or daughter?

What exactly were Darkness and his twitchy friend talking to Elokhar about?

If the beggar was Ishar or Jezrien and If darkness and his mate are Nalan and Kelek and If Shallash was there defacing her statue then that is 4 out of 10 Heralds present at the feast...

It stinks I tells ya!

Edited December 19, 2013 by The Count

[Shardlet]

Here is the happy quote of interest:

 

One Herald, (other than Taln) kept his Honorblade.  (Or at least, he took it back).

 

I agree that it is anything but certain that Ishar is the drunk.  The drunk has a beard and Ishar has a beard.  That is about the only evidence.  Of course, I would expect that any of the male Heralds could grow a beard if they so chose.

 

It is important to note that the lack of an alternative explanation is not proper evidence of an explanation.  Szeth's abilities coming from an Honorblade is a reasonably plausible explanation.  However, there is not much actual evidence to support it.  It is conjecture (although nice conjecture). 

Edited December 19, 2013 by Shardlet

[ccstat]

While I have moderate reservations about the whole Nalan=Darkness thing, I really disagree that the other ambassador would also be a herald. Even finding two of them together at the feast seems momentous, and I strongly doubt that two would be working so closely together.

 

It has been decided, Kalak. We will go our ways, and we will not seek out one another.

 

I think they meant it. They have gone their own ways, pursuing their own goals as they see fit. In the various actions we've attributed to them (the vandalism in particular) I see at the least an absence of coordination, and elements of willful separation. They may be ignoring each other, or they may be working at cross purposes based on different opinions of how to help save the world. (In fact, I think I can only accept Nalan=Darkness if the heralds are working towards conflicting goals.)

Obviously this conjecture does not preclude two or more of them posing as ambassadors together, but my gut feeling says no, there is a master/minion relationship going on.

[marianmi]

@Shardlet - thanks for the link, beat me to it.

 

@ccstat - Heralds were supposed to leave their blades too, but one of them went back for it. It is very unusual to seek eachother out, but I think it's clear that at least they know what each of them is doing (e.g. Darkness knows about Jez, and this guy from Jasnah prologue knows about Shallash). So I don't find it impossible... 

[Iarvos]

If Shallash  shares a surge with Darkness, this becomes even more plausible. 

 

Consider first

 

Baxil views her as a "amazing" and "intoxicating", which may be natural, but easily could be a result of one of Shallash's surges as well. 

 

Secondly 

 Shallash disproves of stealing - which could be nothing, but could be indicative of a secondary affinity to Justice,.Is Shallash next to Nalan in the surges? 

 

. 

[Moogle]

Secondly 

 Shallash disproves of stealing - which could be nothing, but could be indicative of a secondary affinity to Justice,.Is Shallash next to Nalan in the surges? 

 

 

Nalan is 2, Shallash is 6, so nope!

 

As to your theory, though, Shallash has the attribute of Honesty, so that might explain the dislike of stealing.

[WeiryWriter]

If Shallash  shares a surge with Darkness, this becomes even more plausible. 

 

As Moogle pointed out, if Darkness is Nalan they wouldn't share as surge.  If he is a herald, but not Nalan they still wouldn't share a surge because Shalash is the sixth and both five and seven are female heralds.

[marianmi]

They named it the Final Desolation, but they lied. Our gods lied. Oh, how they lied. The Everstorm comes. I hear its whispers, see its stormwall, know its heart.

 

So what if the gods of the parshendi are the Heralds? They did not want the return of their gods, since a Desolation comes with them.

[Delightful]

 

 

 

They named it the Final Desolation, but they lied. Our gods lied. Oh, how they lied. The Everstorm comes. I hear its whispers, see its stormwall, know its heart.

So what if the gods of the parshendi are the Heralds? They did not want the return of their gods, since a Desolation comes with them.

Well, that definitely seems to fit with the prelude:

 

"They see us as divinites," Kalak whispered.

 

"What do we tell the people, Jezrien?" Kalak asked. "What will they say of this day?"

"It's simple," Jezrien said, walking away. "We tell them that they finally won. It's an easy enough lie..."

So if the Heralds told their people - who are the Parshendi - that they had won, then that Desolation could be labelled by the Parshendi as the 'Final Desolation."

 

Although I'm really not sure how plausible that is. There is a mention of not all the bodies on the battlefield being human, which could mean the parshendi fought with them, though I'd take that to refer to thunderclasts. I did get the impression most people fighting there were human/Radiant/Herald but then again, we don't seem to know terribly much about that time.

 

 

 

So what if the gods of the parshendi are the Heralds? They did not want the return of their gods, since a Desolation comes with them.

Does a Desolation come with Heralds, or do Heralds come with a Desolation?

[Iarvos]

Balkan is 2, Shallash is 6, so nope!

 

As to your theory, though, Shallash has the attribute of Honesty, so that might explain the dislike of stealing.

  

As Moogle pointed out, if Darkness is Nalan they wouldn't share as surge.  If he is a herald, but not Nalan they still wouldn't share a surge because Shalash is the sixth and both five and seven are female heralds.

Ah well, it was a thought! The bigger topic I'm interested in is the interpersonal relations between heralds. Whoever the edgedancer herald is, he/she seems unlikely to get along well with Darkness. Conversely, if "Ash" is Shalash, Darkness knows her well enough to be cognizant of her condition, possibly indicating a closer relationship. Do these relationships follow a predictable pattern? It will be an interesting pattern to follow in the series.

[askthepaperclip]

I have always read the "my Lord" statement as coming from a lackey, referring to darkness. We have already seen in the lift interlude that he had lots of lackeys, why would this guy not be one? With the new WoB about the honor blade, I am pretty convinced that darkness/nalan is the one who went back for his blade, and that "my Lord's own blade" is referring to his. I don't think Brandon would tell us such a big detail this close to the book release unless it was already heavily hinted, and the fact is, darkness has appeared in at least THREE of the readings up to now. Occams razor would suggest that the Herald he is referring to must be Darkness.

As for who "that creature" is, it is still up for grabs to me. Although since I just invoked occams razor, I will say that it is probably szeth.

Edited December 26, 2013 by askthepaperclip