Fabrial Blades = Awesome

[18th Shard]

What if you used the fabrial with rubies - the one in spanreeds - and attached one side to a stick in your hand and one to a sword. Repeat with multiple swords, but on the same stick. You then turn them on with the swords by the enemy, swing. Your swords will now attack without a wielder. You could make a giant wall of spears, with no one to kill to knock down the spears (you could still cut the spears, but still!).

 

Any other awesome uses for fabrials?

Edited December 16, 2013 by 18th Shard

[WeiryWriter]

The problem is that force is conserved with pairing fabrials.  You theoretically could pair a stick with a hundred different swords but the energy required to lift that stick would be equal to the energy required to lift all one hundred swords.  So in practice it wouldn't really be feasible.  That said a person in shardplate could might be able to make it work on a smaller scale.

[Natans]

A better application of this kind of fabrial are a "remote motor"

 

Put a windwheel or waterwheel to spin in one place "conected" to and a helice or axis, whatever, and you could have cars or boats propeled by wind or water =)

 

Roshar magic system is very creative if one have the mind for it many nice things could be created =)

Edited December 16, 2013 by Natans

[Maximus]

A better application of this kind of fabrial are a "remote motor"

 

Put a windwheel or waterwheel to spin in one place "conected" to and a helice or axis, whatever, and you could have cars os boats propeled by wind or water =)

 

Roshar magic sytem is very creative if one have the mind for it many nice things could be created =)

 

Yes indeed, if force is conserved across the pairings and is not extremely limited in some way, then it opens a world of possibilities with power transmission.

[Mailliw73]

To the OP, even if it were just one or two swords that were paired, it would be an epic battle. You could fight with much less risk to yourself, at least, until everyone starts doing that. Then there'll just be floating swords dueling.

[Moogle]

The problem is that force is conserved with pairing fabrials.  You theoretically could pair a stick with a hundred different swords but the energy required to lift that stick would be equal to the energy required to lift all one hundred swords.  So in practice it wouldn't really be feasible.  That said a person in shardplate could might be able to make it work on a smaller scale.

 

Has that been confirmed? If that's true then, because of the force of gravity being in slightly different directions for both, spanreeds should weigh slightly less than their combined total weight and also move horizontally away each other until they reach opposite sides of the globe, where they become weightless. They do not do this, so far as I can tell. It could be that Roshar is just so huge that the supercontinent on it is a small speck, meaning the relative angles are low... or gravity might work differently (it's a Surge so quite possibly it does), or the spanreeds could transfer their momentum such that it is mimicked relative to the other spanreed... I guess, though this would lead to some interesting physical implications, not least of which being the law of conservation of momentum being completely broken.

 

Welp, the conservation of energy is borked too, so I guess that shouldn't be much of a surprise. I hope Brandon writes down a small physics textbook on the Cosmere at some point. It would be interesting formulating a way to make an infinite-energy bomb. Or, well, that's easy with mechanical Feruchemy, but making one gain as much energy as quickly as possible. Perhaps if you could automate Soulcasting and Forging...

Edited December 16, 2013 by Moogle

[Natans]

Has that been confirmed? If that's true then, because of the force of gravity being in slightly different directions for both, spanreeds should weigh slightly less than their combined total weight and also move horizontally away each other until they reach opposite sides of the globe, where they become weightless. They do not do this, so far as I can tell. It could be that Roshar is just so huge that the supercontinent on it is a small speck, meaning the relative angles are low... or gravity might work differently (it's a Surge so quite possibly it does), or the spanreeds could transfer their momentum such that it is mimicked relative to the other spanreed... I guess, though this would lead to some interesting physical implications, not least of which being the law of conservation of momentum being completely broken.

 

Welp, the conservation of energy is borked too, so I guess that shouldn't be much of a surprise. I hope Brandon writes down a small physics textbook on the Cosmere at some point. It would be interesting formulating a way to make an infinite-energy bomb. Or, well, that's easy with mechanical Feruchemy, but making one gain as much energy as quickly as possible. Perhaps if you could automate Soulcasting and Forging...

 

The distance have influence and when you move a object you must apply force to move both objets. See Dalinar conversation with Jasnah.

[Kurkistan]

If you're interested in discussions about conjoiner orientation, we talked over it a bit quite awhile back, specifically in the (quite unnecessarily spoiled, in retrospect) "Mobility and Orientation" section and on for a bit in the rest of the thread.

 

That was all before we knew how cheaty Cognitive stuff is, so you can probably get away with "how you intuitively think it should move" and call it a day.

[Natans]

Thinking about this all fabrials lack a certain level control, like they give heat of move things but there aren't really great precision there. If you could define the power output or define with precision the efects that a fabrial could generate you would have a pretty cool pseudo-tecnology setting here.

 

I already imaging a fight in the futre with "Roshar space slip ship" and a "Scandrial time-dilating travel ship" =)

 

Crossing finger for they invent some form of gun spren powered weapon.=)

 

Like a "Gravitational Accelaration Honor Assault Gun" .44 " Gahag. 44  The ketek gun

 

PS: For the fun a googled the accelaration in G of a bullet and this was what Dr. Wiki told me.

 

31 000 G 9 × 19 Parabellum handgun bullet (average along the length of the barrel)

 

To make a Gravitational spren gun, we need a gem to lash the bullet in the direction of the target at 31 000 G.

 

Szeth lashead a big rock about 20 G ( i don't remember exactly).  Let says that the weight of the object is important. and let say that the rock was 1/2 Ton (500KG a conservative number). Let also say that a bullet have 10g, so:

 

500Kg = 500,000g

 

500,000(block weight) / 10(bullet wight) = 5000 to 1 ratio

 

If you could lash 500,000g about 20 times applying the weight ratio a bullet could be lashed 

 

20(lash paradigm) X 5000(weight ratio) = 100,000 (lashs or G)

 

And we now have the math to a functional Lash/Gravitational gun =)

 

Now we only need trap a honor spren and bond it in a way that he lashs everthing in one direction(the diretion that the barrel is pointing) with the around 30,000 G (a possible number). 

 

Tcharammm Ketek gun =)

 

PSS: I'm only joking people =)

[Moogle]

That was all before we knew how cheaty Cognitive stuff is, so you can probably get away with "how you intuitively think it should move" and call it a day.

 

That was my suspicion. The consequences of this though mean that it should be possible to increase the speed at which Roshar spins, eventually flinging everyone off. Or, well, slowly increase the spin speed so that everyone becomes weightless and becomes sad. Still! And, bonus, you can extract Roshar's rotational energy through tides and other avenues, so it's an easy way to generate infinite energy. I think. Might have to do some actual math for that one and account for efficiency and friction, but I think it should be possible no matter the efficiency if we break the conservation of momentum (and through it, energy). Even if we don't use Roshar's momentum as a power source, it shouldn't be too hard to design an infinite energy source with spanreeds and abusing the fact that you can convert downwards pressure at a pole to sideways pressure at the equator (from the reference frame of the pole guy).

 

Potential Lex Luthors rejoice!

Edited December 16, 2013 by Moogle

[WeiryWriter]

Has that been confirmed?

 

 

It's in the Ars Arcanum.

[Moogle]

It's in the Ars Arcanum.

 

Yes, it seems close to being conserved, but the Ars Arcanum author did not perform delicate experiments testing if force was perfectly conserved from one person's reference frame. As Kurk says, it seems likely that it merely mimics things: if the one spanreed goes 'down', the other one goes 'down' even if it is on the opposite side of the globe, thus meaning that force would not be conserved. This experiment is not feasible on Roshar because of sailing in the highstorms, and I was curious if we had any WoBs confirming that force is conserved from one reference frame.

[18th Shard]

I was thinking, even if you have your whole army a mile away and a couple of scouts with flags to tell you where to point your spears, you could have an army that fights with out having people be killed. 200 guys with fabrial-spears stabbing from a 100 yards away is going to more damage  than 200 spearmen up close. Yes, energy is conserved, but with enough men, you could potentially do a lot of things that would be devastating to another army.

[WeiryWriter]

Yes, it seems close to being conserved, but the Ars Arcanum author did not perform delicate experiments testing if force was perfectly conserved from one person's reference frame. As Kurk says, it seems likely that it merely mimics things: if the one spanreed goes 'down', the other one goes 'down' even if it is on the opposite side of the globe, thus meaning that force would not be conserved. This experiment is not feasible on Roshar because of sailing in the highstorms, and I was curious if we had any WoBs confirming that force is conserved from one reference frame.

 

relevant quote from Ars Arcanum:

 

 

Conservation of force is maintained; for instance, if one is attached to a heavy stone, you will need the same strength to lift the conjoined fabrial that you would need to lift the stone itself.  There appears to be some sort of process used during the creation of the fabrial that influences how far the two halves can go and still produce an effect.

 

Maybe we are talking about something different when we say "force is conserved" but I'm not seeing the problem?

 

Also note that last bit, it is entirely possible the fabrials simply wouldn't work on opposite sides of the planet so the question is moot?

[Moogle]

Because I had a minute free, I have detailed a diagram for Rosharan supervillains to use. You get a net force in one direction, merely by pushing on a fabrial!

 

With two spanreeds connected to springs, one placed on opposite ends of the planet one can push Roshar into the sun, or into the starry void. Just push on the fabrials when you can see the sun. To make this not take a million years, you will need a power source. I suggest an automated off-on device attached to a spanreed ruby, with its pair thrown in the ocean. Brownian motion to energy, ho!

 

On a more serious note, is this seriously how the physics work? So many ideas. I really wish I could get Brandon alone in a room for a few minutes and force him to make that Cosmere textbook.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Moogle

[Gloom]

What if you used the fabrial with rubies - the one in spanreeds - and attached one side to a stick in your hand and one to a sword. Repeat with multiple swords, but on the same stick. You then turn them on with the swords by the enemy, swing. Your swords will now attack without a wielder. You could make a giant wall of spears, with no one to kill to knock down the spears (you could still cut the spears, but still!).

 

Any other awesome uses for fabrials?

 

This could work, but you need to work within your limitations. Instead of swords or spears which can be easily parried, dagger blades would be a viable alternative. Since reach isn't an issue, the wand could be held close to the body to conserve energy. Half of the work of employing a weapon is that you are trying to take advantage of your reach, with a wand you could eliminate that need to some degree. If the distance the weapons were from the body could be varied, you could theoretically create a weapon that could thrust a dozen knife points into a target and retract with the speed of a finger sliding the length of the wand. Create a range of say between two and twenty feet, and you have a very nasty thrusting weapon that could be turned in any direction.

[Aether]

 

Thinking about this all fabrials lack a certain level control, like they give heat of move things but there aren't really great precision there. If you could define the power output or define with precision the efects that a fabrial could generate you would have a pretty cool pseudo-tecnology setting here.

 

I already imaging a fight in the futre with "Roshar space slip ship" and a "Scandrial time-dilating travel ship" =)

 

Crossing finger for they invent some form of gun spren powered weapon.=)

 

Like a "Gravitational Accelaration Honor Assault Gun" .44 " Gahag. 44  The ketek gun

 

PS: For the fun a googled the accelaration in G of a bullet and this was what Dr. Wiki told me.

 

31 000 G 9 × 19 Parabellum handgun bullet (average along the length of the barrel)

 

To make a Gravitational spren gun, we need a gem to lash the bullet in the direction of the target at 31 000 G.

 

Szeth lashead a big rock about 20 G ( i don't remember exactly).  Let says that the weight of the object is important. and let say that the rock was 1/2 Ton (500KG a conservative number). Let also say that a bullet have 10g, so:

 

500Kg = 500,000g

 

500,000(block weight) / 10(bullet wight) = 5000 to 1 ratio

 

If you could lash 500,000g about 20 times applying the weight ratio a bullet could be lashed 

 

20(lash paradigm) X 5000(weight ratio) = 100,000 (lashs or G)

 

And we now have the math to a functional Lash/Gravitational gun =)

 

Now we only need trap a honor spren and bond it in a way that he lashs everthing in one direction(the diretion that the barrel is pointing) with the around 30,000 G (a possible number). 

 

Tcharammm Ketek gun =)

 

PSS: I'm only joking people =)

 

Up-vote for pure awesomeness!

 

 

Also, it is important to note that Roshar only really has one continent. Whether a fabrial will work on the opposite side of the planet is a hypothetical question only.

[The Count]

Yes, it seems close to being conserved, but the Ars Arcanum author did not perform delicate experiments testing if force was perfectly conserved from one person's reference frame. As Kurk says, it seems likely that it merely mimics things: if the one spanreed goes 'down', the other one goes 'down' even if it is on the opposite side of the globe, thus meaning that force would not be conserved. This experiment is not feasible on Roshar because of sailing in the highstorms, and I was curious if we had any WoBs confirming that force is conserved from one reference frame.

I always assumed that in the Cosmere forces were conserved across all three realms rather than just the physical one.

That way any issues such as the spanreed example above are explained by the cognitive / spiritual aspects of the process.

So a cognitive aspect defining 'direction' according to local cognitive influence asserts itself causing a spiritual force component to redress any physical limitations that would otherwise assert themselves. Thereby preserving conservation of energy and momentum across the three realms.

...not sure if I explained that particularly well... how about... It is MAGIC!

[Satsuoni]

[handwavium]

It may not push the planet for the same reason a person jumping on the surface doesn't push it into the sun - the force is compensated. For example, it can be compensated by adjusting the reaction force of the person doing the lifting - in that case, two spanreeds on the opposite sides of the globe would create a curious effect of the weight of both spanreeds not being transferred to the planet at all (he would still need strength sufficient to lift both at once).

Down may simply count as "towards zero" in spherical coordinate system (planet center of mass).

Another thing to note is that, as most if not all fabrials, spanreeds need stormlight to function. This might offset the energy problems somewhat, if such actually exist.

[/handwavium]

As for fabrial guns - as I've proposed before, Death Rays is the way: take a huge... Smokestone? or whatever, catch many Deathspren, then either make it shoot rays of death somehow, or create a stick that kills on touch, ala painknife. Since fabrials can be activated and deactivated somehow (see spanreed), one may be able to create AoE kill-em-all fabrial that works on timer/touch/approach (see human detection fabrial), creating mines and grenades. If set in the same way as Human detection one, to exclude your group, make it surround your camp with a cloud of death for protection against brigands.

Edit:

And use the reverse effect (like pain reducing fabrials) to keep you patient from dying while you operate on his exposed heart, or simply to reduce the probability of dying during illness.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Satsuoni

[Moogle]

Another thing to note is that, as most if not all fabrials, spanreeds need stormlight to function. This might offset the energy problems somewhat, if such actually exist.

 

Perhaps. It strikes me that going crazy with figuring out how best to exploit the pairing principle of rubies and amethysts, I've ignored the most obvious source of energy in the novels: heating fabrials! They convert Stormlight directly into heat. There might be some sort of energy-conserving principle at work here, but I highly doubt it. Stormlight is a renewable resource as far as I can tell. Harmony, when holding the Shards, realizes that there is unending power. By using the local Shard (Honor?) who is producing Stormlight as a power source, one can effectively draw cheap energy. The rate at which it can be drawn is limited by the amount of Stormlight produced at any time, but the energy is most certainly infinite. There are good things in Roshar's future, I think.

 

Even if Roshar has energy conservation (which I doubt; amethyst+ruby pairings should be capable of providing infinite oscillations if I can figure it out), there's always mechanical Feruchemy. The Cosmere most certainly doesn't follow our laws, and the fun is in trying to figure out where they differ and how best to exploit the principles. For example, no car on Scadrial should require gas when they figure out mechanical Feruchemy weight manipulation.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Moogle

[Satsuoni]

That is called "renewable energy" and "eco-friendly", moogle Yes, Shardic power(energy per unit of time) seems to be limited, but their energy is not. Or maybe they simply fool statistics in a way I describe in my entropy theory, or some other way (sig). Energy is relative, after all, and we are still not sure if energy conservation works *exactly* in our Universe.

[Moogle]

That is called "renewable energy" and "eco-friendly", moogle Yes, Shardic power(energy per unit of time) seems to be limited, but their energy is not. Or maybe they simply fool statistics in a way I describe in my entropy theory, or some other way (sig). Energy is relative, after all, and we are still not sure if energy conservation works *exactly* in our Universe.

 

My words were imprecise/wrong and I apologize! I should have known better.

 

As for our universe, most signs point towards it being the case that there is a local conservative of energy from my understanding (if not necessarily global). Scadrial's mechanical Feruchemy basically breaks the law so flagrantly that there is obvious there is no such conservation there. Stick an Iron Ferring on a Ferris Wheel, have him become heavy on the way down and light on the way up, and you get some sweet energy without decreasing available extractable energy (ie. entropy). There's no Shards involved with Feruchemical energy extraction, from my understanding, as it is Investiture-neutral and it all comes from the person.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Moogle

[Satsuoni]

Fumu... Well, yes, you are correct. It depends on your point of view, I guess - for me, it is the fact that human souls (or parts thereof) came from the Shards is what allows them to use Feruchemy, so the same rules apply, just on the smaller scale, including, to some extent, energy recovery (unless, of course, excess energy in Feruchemical iron case comes from your mass, but that is unlikely). And conservation laws, in general, are screwed by underlying Cognitive aspect, similar to the effect of "the watched atom never decays" IRL  (not to mention that we don't know how to calculate total energy of an object in Cosmere, since it would have to include all 3 Realms)  

But enough about that. Free energy for everyone! Death rays, Hemalurgic abominations, Awakened terminators! Cosmere is awesome

[Pechvarry]

I'm liking the idea of a character who fights like the Asian-themed "flying sword" mages.

To add to the crazy, you could tie your wand to some twine while connected to a small sword or dagger. Swing the rope around and it'll feel like you have a sword tied to the end, while creating a weapon with tremendous and unpredictable striking range.

Edit: this would be helped tremendously by something like feruchemic Tin. Some method of binocular vision that really puts you in the action.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Pechvarry

[Smidge]

I suspect pairing fabrials are strongly limited in the force they can transmit probably relating to stormlight usage / gem size. They are after all being used only for lifting feathers at present. It probably takes a gemheart to lift something as heavy as a sword.

Presumably they use up stormlight to operate so energy isn't actually gained by any manipulations.

Also as far as how the positioning works it's probably relative to the planet - that's how time bubbles in alloy of law work.