Shins with Blades? Maybe, maybe not.

[Lifeb4death]

Well, this is my first time posting a theory on this site so be kind . Hopefully this is new to you and gives you more ideas for your own theories or helps you think of new ones.

So my Topic title "Shins with Blades" is more focused on Shin warriors with Shardblades. I started looking into this theory when I came across the trade between Vstim and the Shin farmer via Thresh-Son-Esan.

TWOK: Part 1- (Rysn) page 476 (sorry I have to type this as I don't have Ebook)

"Wow "Rysn said. "He brought a lot of servants".

"Servants?" Vstim said.

"The fellows in brown."

Her Babsk smiled. " Those are his guards, child."

On that page she mistakes Shin warriors as servants. He who Adds, the Farmer lavished with attention and respected escorted by warriors without weapons seems like an uncommon thing. Although it doesn't say if they do or do not have weapons I believe Rysns observations indicates that they don't. As an merchant in training it's part of her job to observe her buyers to know how best to haggle with them, so seeing as she mistakes Shin warriors for servants indicates that they were unarmed.

There are other things that don't hint at it but seem a bit out of place.

TWOK: Part 1- ( A Work of Art) page 492

He was required to carry the Blade until his death, after which Shin Stone Shamans would recover it from whomever had killed him.

(I Might be taking this out of context but hey that's theories for you )

Szeth is smart and he's a thinker. To say that so decidedly and not doubt one bit that the Stone Shamans will retrieve the blade from "whomever had killed him" makes you wonder.. HOW?!. We are talking about the assassin in white. he kills Kings and High Princes. to retrieve the blade from either one would be through war or endless amounts of wealth which the Shin most likely don't have as quoted from Vstim " I have offered them spheres but they find them worthless. Or unholy. Or too holy to use." But a Stone Shaman with Shin warriors with Shardblades wouldn't have a problem retrieving that Blade.

TWOK: Part 1- (Rysn) page 476

"Here, warriors are the lowliest of men - kind of like slaves. Men trade and sell them between houses by way of little stones that signify ownership, and any man who picks up a weapon must join them and be treated the same."

The Farmers warriors had no weapons, or did they? 2 main sins you read about Szeth is committing murder and walking on/ destroying stone. There is one item that can do both and it's a weapon hidden within the user.. Shardblades. Picking up a weapon such as this would seem like a quick way to make you lose respect in a place like Shinovar.

As for all Shin warriors, carrying Blades seems impossible, but if you view the map of Roshar Shinovar doesn't seem as big as the rest of Roshar and seeing as being a warrior is frowned upon in Shinovar the amount of warriors might not be a great as most people think.

There is a part in the book where Dalinar sees the Radiants give away their Shardblades. he quoted that there are less then 100 Blades and Plates in all of Roshar and that more then 300 Radiants gave up their Blades that day. So where are the rest? Shinovar is a place cut off from most of Roshar, foreigners aren't allowed near farms and it seems Vstim and Thresh-Son-Esans trade was away from Shinovar. It also seems like little is known about them so they could hide Blades from others.

I talk a lot about Shin warriors having Shardblades so you might wonder why I don't mention them having Shardplate. Shardplate is powered by Gemstones and the Vstim quote I mention before says that they find then too holy or unholy to use.

This theory has flaws and points, but it's something that's been bugging me. So don't be shy to point out those flaws, we are all here to find something solid so your feedback is much appreciated and will help myself and others to come up with better theories!

[wlmkfi]

Haha no mucking around aye bro, i suprisingly agree with a lot of the things you have put forward the warriors appear unarmed but are bound by oathstones... What would they have that would be so dangerous that their religion would require them to be bound to a master, sounds like a great way for a small country with a small population to survive the chaos that having a huge surplus of shardblades in one place would cause !

[Lifeb4death]

I also forgot to mention their hand to hand combat. But the one time you see it Szeth uses it with his surgebinding and even tho Thresh has guards fighting bandits or others that use weapons would still be hard with only your hands.

[Natans]

Well, it's possible. But remember that the Shins have problems to obtain metal (they don't mine because it's Unhloy), so i's possible that the sword are a rare there, given the fact that they don't care much for war and the precius metalmuch be used to create fram tools and, etc.

 

 And apparently the Shins have a very good Martial Art so like Szeth said one time: "The sword aren't his weapon he was the Weapon" =)

Edited November 23, 2013 by Natans

[Gloom]

The theory is plausible and well thought out. I don't have any doubts that the Shin have a larger number of Shards than people realize. Of course, most people wouldn't credit the Shin with even one Shard.

 

So yes, I have no trouble believing the Shin have Shards. No, I don't believe they have more Shards than everyone else. Just to be clear I'm not trying to say the OP felt they did, I'm just clarifying my position. I don't believe that the Shin are hiding hundreds or thousands of trained Shard wielding warriors.

[Vortaan]

I don't know that I agree. The Shin warriors could be very skilled in unarmed combat or unconventional weapons. It's probably fair to assume that a Stone Shaman has access to some form of magic. It seems as though on Roshar, people are so unused to magical effects that it lends those with powers larger advantages than it would, say an Elantran or Mistborn. I wonder if Szeth is really just counting on the fact that if he dies, it will likely be because he was taken by surprise, and that the Stone Shamans would be a bit more aware of that fact.

[hoser]

I see a problem with maintaining low status warriors.  How do you keep them from taking over and elevating their status? 

My favored solution is high-status Stone Shamans that kick butt whenever the low status warriors get uppity.  

So I doubt the low status warriors have shardblades, but I think the Stone Shamans absolutely do. 

These powerful Stone Shamans would recover Szeth's blade. 

Going further out on a limb, Szeth talks about his shardblade being unique.  I imagine ten unique shardblades with the powersets of the different radiant orders. 

[name_here]

I got the distinct impression that possessing the Blade was what made Szeth Truthless. I believe it's the same principle as the warriors, but because he picked up an even deadlier weapon he has an even lower status. The warriors are slaves, Szeth was filth who was not even worthy of being sold. I believe that some number of Blades are stored in Shinovar, but anyone who picks them up becomes Truthless. I wonder if it might be a distorted form of the Radiant ideals; no one is to wield a Shardblade except to defend humanity from Voidbringers. But the Voidbringers allegedly don't exist/are all dead, so picking one up is in clear violation of that rule.

 

I seriously doubt the Shin warriors make use of Shardblades. They must have fought off invasions at some point, and if they used Shardblades then people would have heard about it. The guards weren't visibly armed, but there are several possible explainations for that. It was a peaceful meeting with a long-time trading partner, so the guards were probably more a status symbol than a precaution. It could be that the highest-status guards are ones who fight unarmed, it could be that soldiers only carry weapons when their duty demands it, or it could be that openly displaying weapons would be an insult and they had concealed knives.

[Shardlet]

I think it is a pretty good theory, Life.  It was a very good catch on the Shin guards.  I love the juxtaposition that Brandon has done with the Shin.  Most Rosharan races have epicanthic folds on their eyes, but the Shin don't.  In contrast, we generally associate hand-to-hand martial arts as almost exclusively asian.  To the point where when "martial arts" are mentioned our minds (Americans at least) tend to instantly turn towards Asian hand-to-hand martial arts.  Yet, the Shin, who do not look Asian, per se, is the culture with the potent hand-to-hand martial arts.  It's cool.

 

This martial art form though, is the biggest weakness to your theory (though not fatal by any measure).  While they could indeed have some conventional concealed weapons, the ultimate concealed weapon on Roshar is a shardblade.  I get the impression that the Shin are very isolated geographically.  Not many Shin are seen about and there probably aren't many outsiders who go to Shinovar.  Most Rosharans (particularly the more warlike Easterners) would likely find the entire region to be unsettling in the same way that Rysn did.  Also the isolation by the mountains would likely make any conquest of Shinovar very challenging. 

 

So, in my view, we are left with a bit of a paradox.  Why do the Shin (who are clearly culturally and geographically isolated) have such a well-developed and potent martial art form such that people of status feel safe when accompanied with guards who carry no apparent weapons, and are capable of producing warriors of great skill (e.g., Szeth)?  Considering that warriors occupy a position of low social status, they are unlikely to have needed to mount any serious defense to their nation due to natural geographic fortifications, and they religiously reject the existence of voidbringers (i.e., a potent enemy against whom significant defensive and offensive preparations would be advisable), it would be expected the Shin would be militarily impotent or at least weak.

 

This begins to suggest to me that the Shin have something of great value that they anticipate the need to vigorously protect if necessary.  This makes me more amenable to the idea that perhaps the Shin have in their possession the nine Honorblades.  This being the case, I can see them quietly collecting shardblades over time in order to bolster their defensive capabilities.  Interesting to think about.

[hoser]

I got the distinct impression that possessing the Blade was what made Szeth Truthless. I believe it's the same principle as the warriors, but because he picked up an even deadlier weapon he has an even lower status. The warriors are slaves, Szeth was filth who was not even worthy of being sold. I believe that some number of Blades are stored in Shinovar, but anyone who picks them up becomes Truthless. I wonder if it might be a distorted form of the Radiant ideals; no one is to wield a Shardblade except to defend humanity from Voidbringers. But the Voidbringers allegedly don't exist/are all dead, so picking one up is in clear violation of that rule.

This seems like a distinct possibility.  I personally find it hard to believe for two reasons. 

1. Szeth has a line in the prelude about his honor demanding that Voidbringers exist and his punishment insists that they do not.  If his punishment insists that Voidbringers not exist, then it hard to imagine rules concerning the nonexistent Voidbringers.  His honor depending on the existence of voidbringers suggests that his "crime" involves the Voidbringers.  Picking up a Shardblade seems irrelevant.
2. Mr. T says that he was given the Shardblade by his people and he doesn't disagree.  That suggests to me that it is part of his punishment.   

[Gloom]

Eh, how about this scenario?  If the Shin believe the Heralds that the Desolations are finished and will never return to Roshar, then Voidbringers don't exist. If they are the guardians of the Honorblades, they have something of incredible value to protect. If Szeth challenged these ideas, it's possible his honor would demand that the Heralds lied and that Voidbringers do indeed still exist. His punishment is only valid, at least in his own mind, so long as he lacks evidence of the Heralds deception.

[Lifeb4death]

Thanks for the feedback guys. It has got me thinking more of the ancient martial arts Szeth uses called Kammar. I looked more into it and I found this.

TWOK: part 1- (Death wears white) page 202.

Soldiers tried to reach him, but Szeth danced between them, using the ancient martial art of Kammar, which uses only the hands. It was meant as a less deadly form of fighting, but focused on grabbing enemies and using their wieght against them and immobilizing them.

It was also ideal when one wanted to touch and infuse someone.

It indicates that Kammar isn't really deadly (but doesn't rule out that they have other forms) so the only thing that makes it so dangerous when mentioned is Szeths ability to lash soldiers to the roof. He lashes to make himself light and uses Kammar to dodge and weave through them and all he has to do is touch them and with that touch he sends them up to fall to their doom. It doesn't mention any fatal strikes and the only thing that makes it so dangerous was Szeths bindings. With that said they could also have other fighting styles.

So with all that, even if the Shin guards knew Kammar it would be hard to protect their master with a style that focus only on the use of hands to grab their opponent. Which would make it hard to fight spear wielders and bowman. (Which is quoted by Vstim, "lower your bows you know how they feel about them things.") and in cases I think it's hard to compare Shin guards to Szeth the surgebinder. As quoted by Teft, as Kaladin was fighting using stormlight (it could not make a man into something he was not. It enhanced, it strengthened, invigorated. It perfected.) so not only is he faster he's precise, he's agile, he's "inhuman" and his skill with Kammar is enhanced.

I should of looked into this more before making my theory, but it was my first time and I was excited/nervous to get it out .

[Aether]

Sorry for posting that twice. iPhone always does it.

And so you ended up tripple-posting ! xD

[Gloom]

Just hide your previous posts.

 

What I find interesting about the quote regarding Kammar is that it appears that these martial arts were developed by the Radiants. A specific martial art for those who infuse with their hands is actually something that was mentioned. This isn't saying necessarily that this was, or is, the only martial art that the Shin have kept alive. I wonder how many other arts, martial or otherwise, the Shin have kept alive from the days of the Radiants.

[marianmi]

Since nobody is allowed near farms, maybe the shards are used by the farmers lol...

Let's remember Dalinar digging the hole, thinking why there are no shards for farmers

Maybe this is exactly what the shin have done... collecting shards and use them in farming )

[wlmkfi]

Maybe it's just the instinct to back my little brother but the more I think about this theory the more I like it. Let's look at this from another angle, it has been well established that there are a lot of shards missing from Dalinar's observation during his vision at Feverstone keep, now let me ask everyone this...

which race of Roshar would have 100+ blades in their possession and not use them to gain power, wealth etc ?

I'll give you a clue, it's not the alethi

[Gloom]

Since nobody is allowed near farms, maybe the shards are used by the farmers lol...

Let's remember Dalinar digging the hole, thinking why there are no shards for farmers

Maybe this is exactly what the shin have done... collecting shards and use them in farming )

 

Not the Shin. What if they accidentally cut a poor innocent rock in half? The horror! No way, the Shin may use Shards to cut people in half, but not their precious stones.

[marianmi]

Not the Shin. What if they accidentally cut a poor innocent rock in half? The horror! No way, the Shin may use Shards to cut people in half, but not their precious stones.

 

 

There are no stones in Shinovar... so they might cut the earth (ploughing supercharged lol)

 

)

[Aether]

Not the Shin. What if they accidentally cut a poor innocent rock in half? The horror! No way, the Shin may use Shards to cut people in half, but not their precious stones.

They might still use the Shardplates for farming.

 

I kind of like this theory, even if it is currently rather baseless.

[Lifeb4death]

I was also thinking for that theory, maybe some sort of power? like regrowth maybe?

[The Count]

Where would they get the spheres / gems from to power plate / regrowth?

 

They do not mine or break stone and do not want spheres (from the Rysn interlude) so what medium do they use to store stormlight for use in farming?

 

I think, if surgebinding is used in Shin society it would be the express domain of the leaders of society and tightly controlled.

[Lifeb4death]

Good point. I used that as one of my reasons as to why I thought they didn't use plate.

[Aether]

Where would they get the spheres / gems from to power plate / regrowth?

 

They do not mine or break stone and do not want spheres (from the Rysn interlude) so what medium do they use to store stormlight for use in farming?

 

I think, if surgebinding is used in Shin society it would be the express domain of the leaders of society and tightly controlled.

Technically, they see Stormlight (and by extension, Spheres (or is it the other way around?)) as holy. So it isn't really a stretch to think that the very holy men (the "ones who add") could be allowed to use Spheres and Stormlight for adding farming purposes.

[name_here]

Problem: there are apparently no highstorms in Shinovar. They do not have any apparent way to get Stormlight.

[Aether]

Problem: there are apparently no highstorms in Shinovar. They do not have any apparent way to get Stormlight.

 

That would only pose a logistical problem, since there are Highstorms in the areas around Shinovar. If were already assuming that they use the Plates for "holy purposes", then assuming that they collect Stormlight in Spheres stored outside of Shinovar during Highstorms and send them into Shinovar for farming usage would not be too much of a stretch.