dionysus Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 The KRs were not a monolithic organization of do-gooders First, what I am going to propose relies on the following unproven theories that seem to have some weight. Darkness is Nalan Nalan, as herald of the order with the attributes of justice and confidence, has these as dominant character traits. In some limited ways, how he behaves can be used to understand the ideals of his KR order. Surgebinding is tied to the profession of the ideals related to that surge Second, in the real world there is not one universally accepted morality system. And ideals taken to the extreme without temperance can be as bad as unethical behavior. What is justice without mercy? If I accidentally kill someone because of reckless driving, pure justice might demand I be killed myself. On the other hand too much mercy is just a slap on the wrist for any harm caused. Or look at some character traits, is someone who has to be a leader no matter what someone you want to work with? What about someone who only is obedient and never shows any initiative? In general, being well rounded is considered desirable. One who can be both a leader and a follower as the situation demands, one who seeks to do justice but tempers it with mercy, etc. Now for the world of Roshar I propose something similar, that different surgebinders would come into conflict with other orders of surgebinders as their own morality systems collide. Darkness clearly looks upon the Edgedancers with disdain, and it seems to be because he finds there ideals to be trivial. A waste of their potential. “Yes. It is unfortunate they were always so concerned with small-minded things, while ignoring that of greater import. It appears you share their temperament. You have become one of them.”“I didn’t mean to,” Lift said.“I realize this.”“Why . . . why do you hunt me?”“In the name of justice.” Might not the orders have similar conflicts stemming from the competing priorities of different ideals? Surgebinding Ideals vs the First Ideal 1. The first ideal seems to have its root in “The Way of Kings.” 2. Surgebinders existed before “The Way of Kings” was written. See the Dalinar’s Nohadon vision. 3. Using Kaladin as primary evidence, the only noticeable power-up occurs when he speaks the 2nd ideal, not the first. I realize that there is a scene in the book where Kaladin says the First Ideal and then inhales stormlight. (Sorry, don’t have the book with me.) However I think this is intentionally misleading as I believe Kaladin had already shown he was “inhaling” stormlight because spheres all around him had been going dun for a while. 4. The First Ideal is really 3 ideals. Doesn’t make much sense. So from this meager evidence I posit the following, that the latter 4 ideals of each KR order are surgebinding power-up ideals. The first ideal is actually an attempt to unify the 10 types of surgebinders under one banner and marching with one goal. It has no relation to the actual magical powers of the orders. Now if this is true it leads to some interesting speculation. It could mean the unity of the KRs was not something enforced by the magical system itself. What I mean is that if the First Ideal were tied to surgebinding, one could not ignore the First Ideal without diminishing one’s power. But if it was just a regular oath, well we know how good regular oaths work in the real world. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 That is a very interesting idea dionysus. I like it. It certainly goes a long way to resolving our discussions about when Lift and Kaladin reached the first ideal. I would like to see more evidence of tensions between the orders before I grab hold and cling to it. But, it makes good logical sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 Agree. Shardlet and I were actually discussing the first ideal in the "Lift's Specialties" thread, debating whether the words made a difference or whether the oath had to be internalized, and not being able to find an associated power jump. This theory would make sense. BTW the quote you're looking for is here, page 1049 in my softcover: He took the pouch of spheres in his hand and tried to think the same way he had earlier, when he'd drawn in the Stormlight. This is our last chance. "Life before death", he whispered. "Strength before weakness, Journey before destination." The First Ideal of the Knights Radiant. He breathed in deeply, and a thick jolt of power shot up his arm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) At the recreance vision, the KR were fighting with someone before coming back to drop their shards. It was not a desolation. Who were they fighting with? Hundreds of KRs from 2 orders (windrunners and stonewards) in Dalnar's vision? They would crush any mortal force... Unless they were fighting other KR orders... Edited October 29, 2013 by marianmi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 I believe it was Windrunners and Stonewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 updated, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meg Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 At the recreance vision, the KR were fighting with someone before coming back to drop their shards. It was not a desolation. Who were they fighting with? Hundreds of KRs from 2 orders (windrunners and stonewards) in Dalnar's vision? They would crush any mortal force... Unless they were fighting other KR orders... I miss the relation to this thread, can you help me? And btw. though it's off-topic here: you said that BS said the Heralds were made similar to the spren. Might you be so kind to tell me the reference for this statement. I didn't find it, I'm sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 The Radiants weren't fighting another order(s) - their enemies are described with words like "devils" and "creatures." Which STRONGLY suggests non-humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meg Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 The enemies the were to fight were described that way. “…the Order of the Stonewards, my lord,” the still-mounted scout was saying. “And a large number of Windrunners. All on foot.”“But why?” the darkeyed officer demanded. “Why are Radiants coming here? They should be fighting the devils on the front lines!” TWoK Chapter 52 emphasizes mine So this suggests the possibility that the Windrunners and the Stonwards abandoned their place because of internal conflict they didn't want to join. I know it's a stretch, but we don't really know what happened on the Day of Recreance nor what caused it. So this possibility isn't more unlikely than any other possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) Fair enough. Though I don't think I've seen anyone else refer to an enemy humanoid race as "devils" Edited October 30, 2013 by Argent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meg Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 For clarification: I'm not saying that they fought other humans instead of "evil monsters". I say that this quote might suggest that there was a internal conflict and perhaps at least the Windrunners and the Stonewards didn't want to participate so they decided to leave the orders and stop being Knights Radiant. But that quote says that they should have fought "evil monsters" instead of coming to Feverstone Keep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 I am looking specifically at the word "devils." I don't see the soldiers issuing it to describe the other orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meg Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 Me not too, but it seems I can't word my post so that it's understandable; I apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 No, I see what you are saying. At least now I do. Makes sense too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) I am looking specifically at the word "devils." I don't see the soldiers issuing it to describe the other orders. I am less sure of this. Such characterizations seem pretty common between armies during war. You dehumanize your enemy as a way of dealing with the horrors of war. It is far easier to kill a faceless 'devil' than it is to kill that guy over there who I can relate to as a person. Edited October 30, 2013 by Shardlet 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 "Devils" I think is not used at all in the context of the Desolations. I don't see it a stretch to be used for humans. They are "devils" because of their actions, not because of their race. A human can easily call an evil surgebinder a devil. Where "evil" is what he perceives as evil... So yeah, maybe they were non KR surgebinders, maybe they were KR, maybe they were parshendi, maybe they were azish ... "devil" would fit them... I miss the relation to this thread, can you help me? The thread is "KR internal conflicts" and I was suggesting that it's possible the windrunners and stonewardens were fighting other KR orders, which would imply a major conflict in the KR ranks. Relevant enough?... And btw. though it's off-topic here: you said that BS said the Heralds were made similar to the spren. Might you be so kind to tell me the reference for this statement. I didn't find it, I'm sorry. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4222-spoiler-new-purelake-reading-info/ As the Radiant charges to attack the Thunderclast Dalinar turns and helps a man up to back away from the beast, the man then talks in a voice he recognizes from his vision saying that the radiants were a surprise to him that the spren had formed in a way similar to the way he himself, (the Almighty,) had formed the Heralds.He then continues and tells Dalinar that it is to reform the Radiants that the Almighty has been showing him these visions.Now that is a very rough memory of it but it seems to be the approximate story even if some of the actual words are off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) Hrathen's whole purpose in demonizing the Elantrians. I am less sure of this. Such characterizations seem pretty common between armies during war. You dehumanize your enemy as a way of dealing with the horrors of war. It is far easier to kill a faceless 'devil' than it is to kill that guy over there who I can relate to as a person. Edited October 30, 2013 by Mailliw73 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 True - but the word itself does not appear anywhere else in the novel. Once Kaladin thinks of the Parshendi faces as "demonic" (Ch. 53), but that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted October 30, 2013 Report Share Posted October 30, 2013 I think the use of the word "devils" here is very deliberate on Brandon's part - it's generic enough that it could conceivably be used to describe anyone, and therefore keeps us totally in the dark :-) Seriously....it could mean a human enemy army, actual devils/monsters/what-have-you, non-human humanoids (parshendi) etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartbug Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 Brandon is special that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloom Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 I can't believe you devils side-tracked this thread like this! I agree that the OP makes sense, and would make a solid set of principles upon which members of different Orders could judge each other actions. So long as those actions appeared to follow the first ideal, everyone could play nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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