Why spren don't like shard blades

[Pinpoint]

So I have been thinking about the reaction of the spren to shard blades. Syl seemed quite happy when Dalinar got rid of his shard blade and I'm wondering why. This is my theory on one possible reason.

 

I think that this is because the shardblades have a place in the cognotive realm and this bieng the case I think that a shardblades might be able to kill spren.

 

1.Shardblades kill souls themselves. When used to kill a living reature it is like the soul itself is severed.

2. Where do sharblades go when the user isn't using them. I think that they might go to the cognitive realm. Not sure though

 

 

So maybe if the shardblades can kill souls, they can also kill spren. Nobody is comfortable with something that can kill them. So maybe this could be why the spren don't like sharblades.

 

But if spren are so umcomfortable with shardblades then what about someone like Szeth? He has a shardblade and the power ussually gifted via a Human/spren bond. If he is bonded to a spren, how does the relationship work?

 

This is an extremely rough theory but hopefully I can get some thoughts on it

Edited October 21, 2013 by Pinpoint

[Gloom]

Actually, considering the effect a Shardblade has on a living creature, I tend to think they go to the spiritual realm.

 

I personally believe that when they Knights Radiant discarded their Shards, that the Blades changed. I don't believe that the Blades are meant to be carried by anyone except the Knight Radiant that created/summoned the blade into existence. Once they were discarded they lost something vital. I think spren see and react to Shards in their current form in a way similar to how a person would react to a zombie.

 

The information about Lift isn't included in the information generally available about that interlude. Please don't post SH info. It is currently not allowed in these forums. You can find what information is generally available in the Readings section of the WoR subfolder.

 

We have word of Brandon that Szeth is without a spren. We also have a RAFO on weather or not a Shardblade can kill a spren, so it's likely they can.

[deddinty]

I've always believed most of that as well Gloom.

 

I also have wondered if there aren't blades designed for each order.  For example we get blades described as looking like waves, and fire, blades with glowing glyphs.  I agree that something changed when the blades were abandoned, but I also wouldn't be surprised if Syl reacts less harshly to a blade that's more designed for Windrunners.  I'd love to find out that Radiants and their spren have unique ways of bonding with their blades that could "fix" them. 

 

Of course there's other possibilities, such as blades being somehow corrupted and the new radiants will need to rediscover how to create them rather than reclaim existing blades.

[hoser]

I have a memory that Brandon said that a Shardblade can kill a spren.  My research while checking yielded the below quotes, so I assume my memory is wrong. 

 

I assume the earlier Knights Radiant had spren and they had Shardblades, so I think Syl's antipathy is based on something that is different about Dalinar's blade. 

 

Interview: Sep 22nd, 2012

Orem Signing Report - Zas (Verbatim)

 

Question

Can spren die?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, spren can die.

Question

Okay, so Syl, she's been around for at least a few thousand years, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

and from here:

 

Yados

Could a Shardblade sever a Nathel Bond? Could it slice a Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

[Argent]

I think I'll stand behind the general idea that the Blades changed when the Radiants abandoned them. Do we know whether the Blades severed people souls while they were still being wielded by the Knights? I am not sure if this isn't an entirely theoretical question, because of the Radiants were as good as ancient (and now corrupted) lore leads us to believe, then they probably didn't walk around killing people. But I have to wonder if the Blades aren't natively of Odium and it is the Ideals (or the Nahel bond, but the Ideals sound much more likely) that negate that effect. 

[Azul]

I've always thought as Gloom has in regards to shardblades.  The Odium theory just never sat well with me.  just his name made Syl hiss and run off so I would imagine her reaction to an actual piece of his power would be bit stronger than mere dislike.

[Arran]

I think I'll stand behind the general idea that the Blades changed when the Radiants abandoned them. Do we know whether the Blades severed people souls while they were still being wielded by the Knights? I am not sure if this isn't an entirely theoretical question, because of the Radiants were as good as ancient (and now corrupted) lore leads us to believe, then they probably didn't walk around killing people. But I have to wonder if the Blades aren't natively of Odium and it is the Ideals (or the Nahel bond, but the Ideals sound much more likely) that negate that effect. 

IIRC, Szeth reflected that Shardblades had been created to fight nightmarish creatures - i.e. Odium's creations such as the Thunderclast to fight against humankind during the Desolations. I rather doubt that Odium would create weapons designed specifically to fight his minions.

 

However, I do like the idea that the Shardblades' nature changed after the Recreance. Certainly the way they're used now - to slaughter vast numbers of beings who most often have little means of defending themselves such a potent weapon, and often in concert with the bloodlust of the Thrill - is more in line with what Odium represents than with what Honor represents. That would explain why Syl said that she hated Dalinar's Shardblade.

 

I wonder if Syl's hatred of Shardblades, even though she was not sentient at the time, somehow affected Kaladin when he refused to pick up the Shardblade he'd won after defeating that unknown Shardbearer back when he was in Amaram's army?

Edited October 23, 2013 by Arran

[Argent]

It almost certainly worked the other way around. There was a WoB around here somewhere that explain how Kaladin's refusal to pick up the Blade played a big part in Syl's... affinity for him.

[Arran]

It almost certainly worked the other way around. There was a WoB around here somewhere that explain how Kaladin's refusal to pick up the Blade played a big part in Syl's... affinity for him.

I'll take your word for it that the bond between Kaladin and Syl grew after he refused the Shardblade. But IMO that doesn't automatically mean that Syl didn't unknowingly influence his decision toward honor at that moment. She's deliberately done that a few times when sentient - begging him to live, to keep trying to help the men of Bridge Four, wanting him to save Dalinar's army - so her apparently vigorous hatred of Shardblades, even if Syl herself wasn't self-aware at the time, could IMO still have subconsciously affected Kaladin's thoughts/emotions when he refused the Shards.

[Argent]

Perhaps. She did say she remembered him in the army, so she was at least weakly attracted to him.

[Gloom]

Indeed. Syl was following Kaladin around prior to killing the Shardbearer. She tripped him on the way back from getting the new kid and had been pranking him for (IIRC) weeks. I think her ability to influence Kaladin behavior at this point was minimal, but still may have been enough to impact his emotional states. Kaladins decision strengthened the bond between them.

[Shardlet]

I think Kaladin not accepting the blade was mostly Kaladin and very little (if any) Syl.  Kaladin was sickened at the thought of taking the blade that had killed his men who were the closest he had to family.  It would be something like someone shooting and killing your family and then you choosing to keep and use the gun the guy used to kill them.  Most people would have a hard time stomaching such a thing.

[Argent]

Furthermore, Syl's influence over Kaladin has been... interactive. She doesn't seem to passive make him more honorable just by being around him; no, they talk, Kaladin lets his guard down around her, and then makes the right decisions (influenced by their talks) on his own.

[Gloom]

Furthermore, Syl's influence over Kaladin has been... interactive. She doesn't seem to passive make him more honorable just by being around him; no, they talk, Kaladin lets his guard down around her, and then makes the right decisions (influenced by their talks) on his own.

 

I disagree. Being bonded to a Splinter is bound to have some residual effects on behavior even without communication.

[Argent]

Well, I disagree with your disagreement. First, we don't know when Kaladin and Syl were officially bonded - it is possible that Syl was merely taking an interest in Kaladin, her spren instincts subconsciously nudging her to evaluate how honorable he is. Not only that, but we don't know how the Nahel bond works. The people of Sel could also be considered bonded with their Seons (also pretty much Splinters), but nothing in Elantris suggests that a Seon's core Aon affects his or her current owner.

[Gloom]

Seons are of Devotion, devotion is a much more subtle attribute than honor. Someone can be devoted to something which is benevolent, or to a purpose which is nefarious. To be devoted means you are extremely committed to your purpose. Honor is different in my opinion. Honor is situational. It requires more from a person than devotion to a purpose. It requires a particular behavior set. It influences every decision. It has baring on every action. Devotion is about accomplishing the ends. Honor is about the means.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Gloom

[Shardlet]

@ Argent- Although the bonding is not quite the same (less give and take), it is a good analogy.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Shardlet

[hoser]

Seons are of Devotion, devotion is a much more subtle attribute than honor. Someone can be devoted to something which is benevolent, or to a purpose which is nefarious. To be devoted means you are extremely committed to your purpose. Honor is different in my opinion. Honor is situational. It requires more from a person than devotion to a purpose. It requires a particular behavior set. It influences every decision. It has baring on every action. Devotion is about accomplishing the ends. Honor is about the means.

There is a lot in here that I agree with, but I think we threw a baby out with the bathwater in this chain of logic.

 

Yes, I suppose one can be devoted to a purpose or an end, but that is not the exclusive or even primary target of devotion.  Most often one is devoted to an object, ideal or purpose and the target of the devotion determines one's ends.  If I really wanted destruction, I would probably say I was committed to destruction before I said I was devoted to destruction.  With devotion, I think there is a measure of connection to an independent other, which influences the devoted one's ends.  Consider the quote below, where I interpret that Brandon's meaning for devotion is similar to love. 

 

Devotion is more about supporting the target of the devotion than accomplishing one's own ends, which is why the Seons don't really have their own goals, but help the one's they are devoted to accomplish whatever they choose. 

 

Interview: 2011

Twitter 2011 (Cosmere) (Verbatim)

Chaos

So Aona is a synonym for love, hmm? Is Charity the correct Shard name?

Brandon Sanderson

Not quite. I'm trying to remember what the guesses were for the other Shard on Sel. I may have dismissed them too quickly.

CHAOS

How about Mercy for Aona, then? The guesses for Skai's Shard include Devotion, Obedience, and Order.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Okay, I was right, then. Ha There's something very ironic in all of this.

[Natans]

I don't know if Sly hate the "blade" itself or what the blade represent.

 

Sly don't like pain and sufferring (she said to Kaladin that be part of a battle deeply disturbed her, don't remember the exact quote) and a shardblade is the maximum representation of grief.

 

If you think about every blade must be tainted by the death of hundreds or thousands, to a pacifist have to deal with something like this would very disturbing.

 

When Kaladin rejected the blade, she saw in him something that she thinked herself. This could be something like when you met a person that have the same tastes that you have.

 

Or could be a primal instinct of survival, because she "feel" that a blade could kill her even with her fragmented memory =)

Edited October 23, 2013 by Natans

[Saber]

IIRC, Szeth reflected that Shardblades had been created to fight nightmarish creatures - i.e. Odium's creations such as the Thunderclast to fight against humankind during the Desolations. I rather doubt that Odium would create weapons designed specifically to fight his minions.

 

That's exactly it though.  Regular shardblades were created to fight huge, nightmarish creatures like thunderclasts.  That's why they're so big.

 

I believe that Szeth's blade is in some way linked to Odium.  That's why it's shorter... it was created to kill men, not Thunderclasts.

[Gloom]

That's exactly it though.  Regular shardblades were created to fight huge, nightmarish creatures like thunderclasts.  That's why they're so big.

 

I believe that Szeth's blade is in some way linked to Odium.  That's why it's shorter... it was created to kill men, not Thunderclasts.

 

There are several theories surrounding Szeths Shardblade. None of these have been substantiated. The evidence can be construed to point in several directions. I personally see no evidence that Odium has invested in Shards at all.

[steeleyes]

If we take Jasnah's theory about the Parshendi/Parshmen as correct than Szeth's blade could be shorter because it belonged to an order that fought against smaller enemies like the Parshendi/Parshmen. It seems likely to me that after making the oathpact and learning how to summon the original honor blades the Heralds either taught their orders how to summon a close approximation of an honor blade or taught them how to craft shardblades and shardplate and these are more like fabrials than actual honor blades. Whether or not all of these were made by the Knight's Radiant or if one type of shardblade was made by Voidbringers is up for debate. However, I don't think it's a coincidence that we have 3 types of shardblades and 3 shards on the same planet. As for why spren don't like shard blades this makes sense if they're fabrials since fabrials use spren captured in gemstones to perform their tasks (might also hint at how they could kill spren after all it would be spren vs spren).

[hoser]

As far as I can tell, there is no evidence supporting the notion that Szeth's blade is shorter.  It is described as long and smaller, which suggests that it is less wide, but not shorter. 

[Argent]

Also, bear in mind that Szeth is farm from an expert on the subject. He seems to know a lot, but that's an argument by comparison. For all we know his reasoning might be founded on something as simple as the awareness that the Radiants (first) wielded Shardblades, and since the Radiants originally fought the nightmarish creatures that came with the Desolations, it would stand to reason that their weapons were designed to fight those creatures. It's the same counter-argument we used when we first suspected that Jasnah might be wrong about the Parshendi being the Voidbringers. Though I did come around to actually believing her in the end...

[Pinpoint]

I've always thought as Gloom has in regards to shardblades.  The Odium theory just never sat well with me.  just his name made Syl hiss and run off so I would imagine her reaction to an actual piece of his power would be bit stronger than mere dislike.

I didn't say the shard were related to Odium. I was thinking that if shard blades can kill spren this would be what made them uneasy. Just as some get uneasy in the presence of a gun they aren't holding.

 

I agree that something changed when the blades were abandoned, but I also wouldn't be surprised if Syl reacts less harshly to a blade that's more designed for Windrunners. 

 

However, this post inspired a small thought. People aren't as uneasy about a gun that they themselves are holding. Maybe a shardblade that was made for a windrunner is more like that.

 

That's exactly it though.  Regular shardblades were created to fight huge, nightmarish creatures like thunderclasts.  That's why they're so big.

 

I believe that Szeth's blade is in some way linked to Odium.  That's why it's shorter... it was created to kill men, not Thunderclasts.

 

Hmmm very interesting thought. That makes a lot of sense. however it doesn't seem quite complete. I haven't heard the Darkness's blade described yet but I wouldn't be suprised if it was a lot like Szeths.

 

Sly don't like pain and sufferring (she said to Kaladin that be part of a battle deeply disturbed her, don't remember the exact quote) and a shardblade is the maximum representation of grief.

 

If this is so, When Szeth shows up she will probobly be even more disturbed.

 

Over all I'm thinking that it has the most to do with the shardblades changing when the radiants left them. a lot of these ideas could play into it thought. However if the sharblades did change. what changed?

Edited October 24, 2013 by Pinpoint