Szeth Will Die And Respawn

[Morsk]

This theory is motivated by dramatic irony more than evidence. Szeth thinks that when he dies, he'll be tortured forever. Well, Heralds get exactly that as an afterlife between Desolations. How ominous will it be if Szeth dies, and the PoV hints that he's beginning an eternity of torture but at least he's content that the killing is over. The reader is then in a position to realize this is really bad because it means exactly the opposite: the killing isn't over at all, and Szeth is still a threat. He'll be back.

So start with the theory that Szeth has Jezrien's Honorblade, and upgrade it to Szeth taking Jezrien's place completely, and being a Herald. Sure he's a bad Herald, but 90% of Heralds are bad these days so he'll fit right in. Shallash is destroying art as Creative/Honest. If Szeth kills world leaders as Protecting/Leading, that's fine too.

One problem is that Taln already respawned at the end of WoK. If it only happens once per Desolation, Szeth missed it. That's where dramatic irony comes in. Szeth has to die and be tortured, so that he can interpret it as Stone Shamanism while the reader recognizes it as the Herald afterlife. That's too cool not to work, so we can infer that Heralds get to come back multiple times during a Desolation until it's over, or something.

[Miyabi]

It would be a very Brandony thing to do to put the Herald of Leadership in a position of absolute slavery...

[Morsk]

I didn't notice the King vs. slave parallel. That makes it even better.

I wonder if we can find more hidden Heralds by reversing their ideals. Brandon says there are a surprising number in the book, but guesses seem limited to Shallash and the beggar in the Prologue.

edit: There are some women with clipboards in Taravangian's blood-draining room. If I were a tortured opposite of Loving/Healing, I'd hang out in an evil hospital. (And more edit: The chapter has a Loving/Healing icon, in spite of absolutely zero loving or healing happening. It's still a long shot, but I'm fond of the idea now.)

Edited October 2, 2013 by Morsk

[Gloom]

Killing people and bringing them back from the dead is lame. Brandon knows it's lame, he's said it's lame, and while he may do it for existing Heralds who have spoken their oaths before the Almighty and been invested with the power to do so, doing this with Szeth simply because he might hold an Honorblade would be disappointing. I'm sure if it's going to be done, it will be done well, but it will still be disappointing. I seriously doubt this will be the case though.

 

I'd also like to know why, out of the ten Honorblades, you think he holds Jezrien's? Has Szeth shown some mastery of command, has he performed some brilliant act of leadership, that I missed somewhere? He's a brilliant fighter, and a deadly assassin, but he is also introverted, submissive, and emotionally damaged. These are not the hallmarks of a great leader.

 

If anyone were to replace Jezrien, I think either Dalinar or Kaladin would make a more logical choice.

 

Edit: Spelling

Edited October 2, 2013 by Gloom

[Morsk]

I don't know where the Jezrien's Honorblade idea came from. I read it over a year ago, but thought it was unlikely because I expected Honorblades to be bigger and to have special powers.

I'm mostly motivated by the idea that Szeth wants to die. If he can't die, that makes it worse, and Heralds are the only thing around that can't die. He also wants to be free of the Shardblade. If it goes with him when he dies, that makes it worse.

edit: The post is being weird, and including <br> and <em> tags for some reason.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Morsk

[Bloodfalcon]

I don't think it's a stupid idea. I think it sounds fun and his character is deep enough to excuse what some people would consider a "cheap" change in a plot line if it is the only occurrence. I don't think it is likely, but it is fun to consider. If you do end up finding that Honorblade reference, let me know!

[Gloom]

I never said stupid, I said lame. Stupid would be if Dalinar had Jezriens Honorblade and gave it to Sadeas.

 

Jezrien is an easy name to pick out. Kalak, Jezrien, and Talenel were probably the most mentioned of all the Heralds in TWoKs, and we have more information on Jezrien than most of the others.

[Oudeis]

Szeth uses the powers of a Windrunner without a Nahel bond. (There's a WoB quote somewhere that makes it explicit that Szeth is getting his powers from another source). Jezrien is the Herald associated with the Windrunners. It's not a stretch to think that this Shardblade, which changes eye color in a way not often seen with Blades, might bestow the power of the Order that Jezrien is associated with. Hence, Jezrien's Honorblade.

[Gloom]

I can see the connection now, but I'm still not convinced. Even though Jezrien led the Wind Runners, we don't know that he shared their powers. I would also expect Jezrian to be more powerful than a KR, not less. Szeth is also capable of using his abilities without summoning this blade.

[Bloodfalcon]

I'm just playin', Gloom. A psychiatrist would call me an "enabler." I like to encourage people to run with ideas and actions whether or not they are valid or productive, hahaha. Encourage fun! Theorize all the things!

[Oudeis]

 Szeth is also capable of using his abilities without summoning this blade.

 

Whether or not a Blade is in your hand, it's still yours. In fact, the case could be made that it's MORE a part of you when it hides behind your heartbeats. My theory is that the power to Surgebind comes from the same place that lets you summon your Blade when it's gone.

 

Also, I don't understand one thing you said. Why do you think Szeth is weaker than a Knight Radiant?

[Gloom]

The_Vikachu ()

Is Kaladin naturally stronger than Szeth in using Stormlight? Szeth can only hold onto it for a few minutes, but Kaladin has been shown to hold onto it for much longer. Or does it have to do with Kaladin having a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, so you all noticed that, did you. Glad you did. I have like a dozen things I nearly posted here, but all of them spoil a scene in Words of Radiance. So I'll just zip it for now.

 

This is why I think that Kaladin is stronger than Szeth.

[hoser]

Well, I used to espouse the idea that Szeth had Jezrien's Honorblade until we learned that we had seen 3 kinds of Shardblades.  I then jumped ship and decided that Szeth's was the third kind and not an honorblade. 

[11thorderknight]

I think we discussed the number of different blades a long time ago in a different post, but here's my take, and why I'm absolutely convinced that Szeth has Jezrien's Blade:

 

1. Different Blades we see in WoK include: the ten various Honorblades (9 in the prologue, 1 in the epilogue). There's no question that's what they are.

 

2. Various "modern" Blades, as wielded by the highprinces, etc.

 

3. Szeth's Blade.

 

4. The Blades of the Knights Radiant, in Dalinar's visions. ("classic" Blades, if you will....)

 

Since we've seen 3 kinds, two of the above must be the same. I don't think the "classic" and "modern" Blades are the same, based on Syl's reaction to them and the Day of Recreance scene, along with the fact that classic and modern Plate are obviously different as well. Obviously, the Honorblades don't fall into the "classic" or "modern" categories either. Szeth doesn't have a spren, so he clearly doesn't have a "classic" Blade either. So, unless you think his Blade is no different that any other "modern" Blade, by process of elimination it must be an Honorblade. 

 

The Honorblade theory is supported by the fact that Szeth's eyes turn to a glowing blue when he summons it, which doesn't happen with other Blades. It also would explain where he got his powers. Otherwise, there must be another mechanism for gaining surgebinding abilities. Which is possible. But, we don't know of one yet, so...yeah. That's what I think.

[hoser]

On reflection, my tone seems inappropriately harsh.  I apologize, 11thorderknight, for the tone.  Please forgive me. 

 

I do not follow the logic here at all, though. 

 

I think we discussed the number of different blades a long time ago in a different post, but here's my take, and why I'm absolutely convinced that Szeth has Jezrien's Blade:

...

Since we've seen 3 kinds, two of the above must be the same. I don't think the "classic" and "modern" Blades are the same, based on Syl's reaction to them and the Day of Recreance scene, along with the fact that classic and modern Plate are obviously different as well.

What?  How are classic and modern plate obviously different?  If the modern Blades aren't leftover from the Recreance, where did they come from?  And what happened to the Blades left behind at the Recreance?

 

Obviously, the Honorblades don't fall into the "classic" or "modern" categories either.

By definition, as you've set it up.

Szeth doesn't have a spren, so he clearly doesn't have a "classic" Blade either.

Lost me again here.  I agree with the conclusion, but the above seems like a non-sequitur.  There are dozens of modern Shardbearers who are apparently w/o spren bearing "modern" blades, the only known source for which is the "classic" blades at the Recreance.

So, unless you think his Blade is no different that any other "modern" Blade, by process of elimination it must be an Honorblade. 

I don't follow your process of elimination.  All I see is a process of assumption. 

The Honorblade theory is supported by the fact that Szeth's eyes turn to a glowing blue when he summons it, which doesn't happen with other Blades. It also would explain where he got his powers. Otherwise, there must be another mechanism for gaining surgebinding abilities. Which is possible. But, we don't know of one yet, so...yeah. That's what I think.

From the prelude, each Honorblade (including Jezrien's) is a "masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns."

 

From the prologue, Szeth's sword is "long and thin, edged on both sides, smaller than most others".

 

Taln's eyes when bearing his Honorblade do not lighten or glow. 

 

So Szeth's blade doesn't look like Jezrien's blade and the eye thing that Szeth's sword does is not what Taln's sword does, so it doesn't match anything we know about Honorblades. 

 

Even if the sword is the source of Szeth's powers, which we have no evidence in support of, it could still be the third kind of Shardblade that gives the powers.

Edited October 3, 2013 by hoser

[Gloom]

What hoser said, and...

 

I also find it unlikely that a surgebinder that topped out at about 4 and a half feet would wield a six foot sword, so provided that spren don't choose their bonded by height, there are bound to be some shorter blades out there.

 

Why Szeth doesn't have a spren is anyone's guess. For all we know, he killed it with his Shardblade and that was the sin that got him bound to an Oathstone.

[Kadrok]

Perhaps Szeth is weaker because Jezrien was drawing power from both a spren and the blade?

[Observer]

I imagine an honorblade would help enhance Surgebinding. If you weren't a Surgebinder to begin with, you wouldn't get the full power, you'd get only the small boost. I don't buy the theory, but there's the two cents I'd give if I did.

 

Edited for spelling and grammar.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Observer

[Oudeis]

From the prelude, each Honorblade (including Jezrien's) is a "masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns."

 

From the prologue, Szeth's sword is "long and thin, edged on both sides, smaller than most others".

 

And at the end, Talanel's blade is just one big spike. Maybe Szeth's Blade, small though it is, is still pretty. Also, long ago Plate was covered in glyphs, and they aren't any longer. In fact, the Knight Radiant from Dalinar's vision had Plate that was covered in glyphs during battle that faded away when he didn't need them anymore. Maybe Honorblades are only covered in glyphs under certain circumstances.

 

I don't think we have conclusive evidence that Szeth is carring Jezrien's Honorblade, but there is an awful lot of circumstantial evidence. He's got the powers of a Windrunner without the Nahel bond. We know his Blade has at least one huge difference from "modern" ones.

 

Talanel's eyes are dark brown. Tanat's stone is topaz, which is a dark colored stone. I realize that's a stretch; Topaz is dark, but it is NOT dark brown.

 

However, the specific line about Szeth's eyes changing: "The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale - almost glowing - sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon."

 

Sapphire. The gem associated with Jezrien and the Windrunners.

 

Aaaaaand... kay, I've found some evidence that I'm mistaken. In chapter 19, Dalinar's flashback to talking with the Knights Radiant, the woman's eyes glow tan (which gem is tan? Topaz? Heliodor? That is the essense of Flesh and she does heal Taffa, so perhaps?), though they do so without her Blade being summoned. The male's eyes are "such bright blue, they were almost white", though as he notes this glow, he says they're leaking Stormlight. Sapphire? Diamond? Zircon? Dunno.

 

So. The Knights Radiant had eyes that glow, whether or not they had Shardblades out. I think there was more to Jezrien and his Heraldness than his Honorblade (as evidenced by the fact that we've seen several Heralds, meaning they've somehow lived for four and a half millenia without the Blades). Nevertheless, it DID have some association with him. I realize it's hardly conclusive, but I maintain that the theory is viable that someone bearing Jezrien's Honorblade might, when it's summoned, possess some of the traits of that Herald (which, like glowing eyes, might be something they shared with Radiants.)

[hoser]

And at the end, Talanel's blade is just one big spike. Maybe Szeth's Blade, small though it is, is still pretty. Also, long ago Plate was covered in glyphs, and they aren't any longer. In fact, the Knight Radiant from Dalinar's vision had Plate that was covered in glyphs during battle that faded away when he didn't need them anymore. Maybe Honorblades are only covered in glyphs under certain circumstances.

Talenal's blade is not present, so it is not being described.  When we see it later, it is clear that it doesn't fit the description.  However, Jezrien's and Kalak's are also not being described, so they could be relatively plain. 

I don't think we have conclusive evidence that Szeth is carring Jezrien's Honorblade, but there is an awful lot of circumstantial evidence. He's got the powers of a Windrunner without the Nahel bond. We know his Blade has at least one huge difference from "modern" ones.

 

Talanel's eyes are dark brown. Tanat's stone is topaz, which is a dark colored stone. I realize that's a stretch; Topaz is dark, but it is NOT dark brown.

 

However, the specific line about Szeth's eyes changing: "The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale - almost glowing - sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon."

 

Sapphire. The gem associated with Jezrien and the Windrunners.

 

Aaaaaand... kay, I've found some evidence that I'm mistaken. In chapter 19, Dalinar's flashback to talking with the Knights Radiant, the woman's eyes glow tan (which gem is tan? Topaz? Heliodor? That is the essense of Flesh and she does heal Taffa, so perhaps?), though they do so without her Blade being summoned. The male's eyes are "such bright blue, they were almost white", though as he notes this glow, he says they're leaking Stormlight. Sapphire? Diamond? Zircon? Dunno.

 

So. The Knights Radiant had eyes that glow, whether or not they had Shardblades out. I think there was more to Jezrien and his Heraldness than his Honorblade (as evidenced by the fact that we've seen several Heralds, meaning they've somehow lived for four and a half millenia without the Blades). Nevertheless, it DID have some association with him. I realize it's hardly conclusive, but I maintain that the theory is viable that someone bearing Jezrien's Honorblade might, when it's summoned, possess some of the traits of that Herald (which, like glowing eyes, might be something they shared with Radiants.)

Well, unless you buy the theory that someone confiscated all the Shardblades and Shardplate and replaced them with different Shardblades and Shardplate without anybody noticing, the question I have for you is:

Brandon claims that we've seen three types of Shardblades, after Radiantblades and Honorblades, what is the third kind of Shardblade?

 

Szeth's seems unique with the eye color effect and history. 

[Oudeis]

Brandon claims that we've seen three types of Shardblades, after Radiantblades and Honorblades, what is the third kind of Shardblade?

 

I honestly don't know. For all we know there's something unique about Oathbringer, or Sunraiser, or the Blade born by the man that Kaladin killed, that simply isn't obvious. It's a stretch, but not a huge one. In my opinion, it's no bigger than ignoring all the connections between Szeth and Jezrien, or the fact that the Radiants DID have glowing eyes, so maybe there is some fundamental difference between their Blades and those of modern times. It's been four millenia; much of Roshar's history is inaccurate myth and legend. Frankly, I think it's not as wildly impossible as you might think that out of the two flashbacks we've seen to the distant past that include Shardblades, that one of them might be something fundamentally different from modern ones.

[hoser]

I honestly don't know. For all we know there's something unique about Oathbringer, or Sunraiser, or the Blade born by the man that Kaladin killed, that simply isn't obvious. It's a stretch, but not a huge one. In my opinion, it's no bigger than ignoring all the connections between Szeth and Jezrien, or the fact that the Radiants DID have glowing eyes, so maybe there is some fundamental difference between their Blades and those of modern times.

If you reread the Starfall vision, you will see that the Radiant eyeglow is independant of when they have summoned their swords.  I believe that it is about them infusing stormlight.  The Radiantblades also have the effect of lightening the eyes permanently, which I believe underlies the Alethi nobility system.  Another distinction is that Szeth's blade has no enduring effect on his eye color.  When he unsummons it, his eyes return to their normal color. 

It's been four millenia; much of Roshar's history is inaccurate myth and legend. Frankly, I think it's not as wildly impossible as you might think that out of the two flashbacks we've seen to the distant past that include Shardblades, that one of them might be something fundamentally different from modern ones.

Sure.  Some random Radiantblade from some vision is a different in a way that no-one has noticed, but the one that clearly acts differently and has a unique provenance is not actually different. 

[Pechvarry]

If this is true and Szeth does die, I'm betting he at least has a TON of gold to spend while waiting to respawn.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Pechvarry

[Oudeis]

Sure.  Some random Radiantblade from some vision is a different in a way that no-one has noticed, but the one that clearly acts differently and has a unique provenance is not actually different. 

 

I'm saying we've seen too little of Honorblades to be sure they're different from Szeth's. We've never see one used, and we've barely seen one summoned. And I'm suggesting that it is possible (and very Sanderson-like) to hide something big and important in plain sight. I'm saying there have been a LOT of instances of the "modern" Shardblade, and it's possible one is different, but looks like any other Blade because no one knows enough to think it's special.

 

I'm not saying this is definitely proven true, I'm saying it's possible, given our limited information. And I'd like to point out that you aren't rebutting a single other point I've made. Why are there coincidences connecting Szeth, and his Blade, to a specific Herald if his blade is neither an Honorblade, nor one of the Blades of the Radiants (which, as you claim, have to be normal old "modern" Shardblades)? You seem to be putting the onus of proof on me, and I don't accept it. You've proven that this theory isn't fact, but you haven't disproven it. It remains plausible.

[Isomere]

I'm still suspicious that radiant blades only make you a Lighteyes while the sword is wielded. We know the legends say you become a Lighteyes if you win a set of shards, but there are no actual examples of that in the text. In fact, the only set we hear about being won by non shard-bearers was claimed by a Lighteyed archer who probably didn't get the killing blow. Those shards likely should have gone to one of the darkeyed spearmen that were swarming over the downed warrior.