Lets mix some magic systems

[Pechvarry]

This was touched on a bit in the Insane Extrapolations thread, but I thought it'd be fun to theorize on some of the stuff someone could do if you had access to multiple magic systems (though not necessarily all at the same time).

Pesky problems like "only Scadrians have the correct sDNA" or "only Nalthesians are born with Breaths" need not apply in this thread. If you could Forge, and you also happened to be a Windrunner, what nifty interactions could you dream up?

Obviously, as the one who is building this thread, I have some ideas. most of them are horribly baseless, but lets get them out there:

Create a Lifeless out of an allomancer. Now Spike It.
Does a Breath restore some spiritweb as well? If so, the Lifeless should still possess the potential for allomancy/feruchemy/others. Perhaps it does, but it's just a faint echo. That should be enough to harvest a (perhaps weak) Hemalurgic spike. One Breath permanently lost, one metal art obtained, and no one had to die (well, he was already dead...) Note: due to the necessity of blood in Hemalurgy, the use of ichor-alcohol is not recommended in your home attempts.

Assuming you can, store a dormant Breath in a piece of metal. What happens when you swallow and burn it? My take? Creates a powerful, spiritual bonfire that burns out gloriously -- and completely uselessly. Even a superpowered Breath doesn't seem super useful if it's destroyed in the process.

More interesting to me is storing a Feruchemic attribute in the metal, and then withdrawing the Breath. I feel this may be a neat way to actually increase the magnitude of a Breath -- much like a Divine Breath. Empowering Breaths in this way could be a fun way to make use of some weaker Feruchemy.

Use Bronze as a radar to detect people with Breath, improve your Bronze with your Breath. Oh good, a little less conjecture on this one. I believe we have WoB that Bronze can potentially detect any system of Investiture. If Breath represents true magic Investiture and not the run-of-the-mill "piece of a Shard giving you sentience," Bronze should pick it up, and allow a Seeker to be aware of any non-drab's presence.

The flipside: it should be mentioned that having Breath does very little to improve your senses (excepting the Life Sense, which it gives you in flying colors. hah pun), but greatly heightens the awareness of what your senses are already providing. This makes me think a Seeker with some Breath would be much more aware of every thrum the Cosmere has to offer, and they would be way better at detecting non-allomantic magic systems.

While I'm obviously stuck on the Breath + Metal Art interactions, feel free to wildly speculate on all Cosmere system interactions.

Any takers?

EDIT: Oh, one more:
 

Lashing bubbles.  If you can impart a gravitational spirit bond in an object, will a Bendalloy/CadmCium bubble stay with it instead of the planet?  I don't remember enough nuance about the lashings, but it looks like the basic and full varieties would need to target the bubble itself (a bit of a metaphysical lashing at that point), while a reverse lashing could target a rock you just threw through the air.  The bubbler would still need to travel with the bubble, which could prove uncomfortable.  

Edited August 31, 2013 by Pechvarry

[Gaelan]

Actually, you are much or less on the right line talking about giving breath to lifeless, since they can store it but aren't able of giving them back. This can be because of it's residual sDNA or because lifeless are made of bodies that were once alive, so they are able to some special interactions. But for what we know, they can't use magic actively. Maybe they aren't smarter enough, maybe they aren't able of it, or maybe I'm just wrong, but I think they aren't able to burn metals, even coming from allomancers. Has someone it's own thoughts about this?

 

Combination of powers? A nalthian mistborn. Wow, that would be just awesome, beeing able to store imbestiture in metals and then burning them. It isn't know what would happen, but surely has some special effects.

 

Or maybe a forger with Shallan's/Jasnah's surge. I don't remember its name, but imagine what kind of things could you do having that control over the cognitive aspect of things. I would take that one.

[Gamma Fiend]

A Pewterarm Windrunner. Cause they would totally win a Shardblade/plate that much quicker.

Or an elantrian drawing super complex, badass AonDor symbols in a Bendalloy time bubble. That would get rid of that magic systems biggest weakness.

[Kurkistan]

Actually, you are much or less on the right line talking about giving breath to lifeless, since they can store it but aren't able of giving them back. This can be because of it's residual sDNA or because lifeless are made of bodies that were once alive, so they are able to some special interactions. But for what we know, they can't use magic actively. Maybe they aren't smarter enough, maybe they aren't able of it, or maybe I'm just wrong, but I think they aren't able to burn metals, even coming from allomancers. Has someone it's own thoughts about this?

 

Lifeless could give away their Breath if they were smarter, so presumably they could also utilize other magic systems. I wouldn't be surprised if a skilled Thug or a savant made into a Lifeless burned their metals instinctively.

 

Source

The reason that you can't draw the Breath back from a Lifeless is because the Breath clings to it. If the Lifeless were sentient enough, it could give up its own Breath, but you can't take it, just like you can't take a Breath from a person by force. You have to get them to give it up willingly. So it sticks to the Lifeless. A Lifeless is, let's say, 90% of a sentient being. The Breath doesn't manifest in them, because they aren't alive, yet they're almost there.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Gaelan]

I never get it right =/ 

 

Sorry again.

[Pechvarry]

Yeah, a working digestive track would help. This is why I instead focused on spiking them.

[Dysphoric Kitten]

You cannot make gemstones using stormlight (mentioned by Shallan). Why not make Lerasium? It is metal, and so you could soulcast Mistborn armies.

 

I want to lash an Aon.

 

Steel Ferring drawing Aons

Zinc Ferring drawing Aons Ene and Sao. Infinite Zinc charge for the win!!!

Brass Ferring with Ehe

[Chromium Compounder]

Feruchemically storing your Breath Investiture in some Nicrosil, then Allomantically burning it.  I'm guessing this would superpower the Breath, possibly even turning each Breath into a Divine Breath.

 

EDIT:

I bet Stormlight could be stored in Nicrosil as well, but compounding it would probably just give you a lot of it.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Windrunner
Please don't double post, just edit your original post.

[Pechvarry]

But a superpowered Breath doesn't help if you just burned it up -- since it was stored in a metal like a Feruchemic charge, it should create an output just like Compounding does.  With Feruchemy, you have a way to recapture this, by simply storing it again in a new metalmind.  I suppose a Nicrosilmind could be used as a "Breathmind" though.  That would be a neat way to capture it.

[Shardlet]

Why not just store the juiced-up breath in your body in the same manner you would store any other breath you have?

[Pechvarry]

Wouldn't that necessitate asking your stomach for your breath back? Compounding (iirc) uses preservation's power to fuel another investiture in the way it's hard-coded to work. Feruchemical gold always provides health, so preservation fuels it. Breath always does things in the object/creature it was put into. In this case, swallowed metal, not your person. Burning this metal with Preservation's power most likely supercharges the Breath, but this seems to me like killing a Returned. Even a super Breath amounts to nothing when its host is destroyed.

I guess what I'm saying is: you don't possess the breath while it's burned. Your metal does.

I'm sure interesting things would occur with very specialized commands in the metal, but that means you're already at the 9th heightening.

[Shardlet]

Perhaps, but the power source of each Shard are all the same.  The systems are different as a result of the holder of the shard, the governing intent of the shard, and an interaction with the planet.  The power itself is the same.  This whole thread is obviously massively speculatory, but I think you are making a distinction where one doesn't need to be made.  You may of course be right.  But, also consider that we know little about the actual nature of 'burning' metals.  We do know the metal isn't destroyed per se, but, rather, it is changed and the metal is ultimately restored in some form.  The fact that the amount of the metal swallowed can be sensed suggests a special interaction between the allomancer and the metal to begin with.  To me, it is not that big of a step to suggest that this connection could reslut int the breath being conducted into the body of the allomancer rather than into the ether.  But, again, that is just my way of thinking.

[Windrunner]

I thought maybe it might fuel the Allomancy via Endowment's power instead, but maybe not. It's fun to guess though.

[Aethling]

If you really want to mix up different magic systems, try the one from warbreaker and the one from The Black Prism.  Form color into shapes and then use breath to animate the shape.  Use Luxin armor on a Lifeless warrior.

[Chromium Compounder]

If you really want to mix up different magic systems, try the one from warbreaker and the one from The Black Prism.  Form color into shapes and then use breath to animate the shape.  Use Luxin armor on a Lifeless warrior.

 

While that could be fun, I think the point of the topic was more as a way of exploring the cosmere, rather than just to mix different magic systems.  

 

Part of what's great about Brandon's Cosmere books is that they're all in the same universe, and while we talk about different magic systems, it's all actually one magic system.  Each 'magic system' would be better off being referred to as a magical art.  There is only one magic system for all of the Cosmere, but it's manifest in a number of different ways through a handful of variables.  

 

I think this thread is more about looking at the interactions between magic systems or arts along the lines of Compounding, as well as how to effectively use multiple arts together (like how Wax uses Allomancy and Feruchemy sans Compounding).

 

And with the stuff I posted earlier, about storing Breath in Nicrosil: One thing it looks like everyone missed was that I was talking about Feruchemically storing it, not simply storing it through Awakening.  Nicrosil stores investiture, and Breath is investiture.  I figured that would insure that it would qualify for Compounding.  It's possible that Breath stored through Awakening in a metal would also get Compounded if the metal were burned, but that's just an extra bit to speculate about.  To avoid that part I decided to use Feruchemical nicrosil.

[Pechvarry]

Spot-on, Mr. Compounder. While a coppermind would be helpful to an Elantrian, I was aiming for interactions that are greater than the sum of their parts, like Compounding. Or, failing that, simply outside-the-box benefits.

for breath, you're saying you'd store in nicrosil and it would cease to be a Breath, and become raw investiture instead? This would remove all of those more questionable interactions when attempting to compound.

I'm cool with this.

[Chromium Compounder]

Spot-on, Mr. Compounder. While a coppermind would be helpful to an Elantrian, I was aiming for interactions that are greater than the sum of their parts, like Compounding. Or, failing that, simply outside-the-box benefits.

for breath, you're saying you'd store in nicrosil and it would cease to be a Breath, and become raw investiture instead? This would remove all of those more questionable interactions when attempting to compound.

I'm cool with this.

I don't think it would cease to be Breath when stored in Nicrosil.  I'm saying Breath is already a type of investiture, and Nicrosil stores investiture.  Just as Tin stores senses such as Sight, Smell, Hearing, and Touch, Nicrosil can store any type of investiture.  Breath is investiture, so store it and then compound it.

 

Actually, I was thinking about this some more.  Feruchemy has a time component to everything that is stored.  Five minutes at half your eyesight can then be drawn on for five minutes of 50% better eyesight, etc.  How would the time component work for storing investiture?

Edited September 6, 2013 by Chromium Compounder

[Dysphoric Kitten]

I don't think it would cease to be Breath when stored in Nicrosil.  I'm saying Breath is already a type of investiture, and Nicrosil stores investiture.  Just as Tin stores senses such as Sight, Smell, Hearing, and Touch, Nicrosil can store any type of investiture.  Breath is investiture, so store it and then compound it.

 

Actually, I was thinking about this some more.  Feruchemy has a time component to everything that is stored.  Five minutes at half your eyesight can then be drawn on for five minutes of 50% better eyesight, etc.  How would the time component work for storing investiture?

 

One hour of being Breathless/drab for one and a fifth minute of first whatchamacallit. Or something similar.

[Chromium Compounder]

One hour of being Breathless/drab for one and a fifth minute of first whatchamacallit. Or something similar.

 

I had a big huge response to this, and then when I tried to post I found out my internet had gone down and I lost it.  Grrr!

 

Let me try to paraphrase it:

 

After thinking about this some more I've decided that Feruchemy is more complicated than I used to think.  There are at least three styles of Feruchemy storage.  

 

The normal method is quantitative.  The most clear example of this is with Wayne storing his health in gold.  He can control how fast to fill or tap his metal minds.  If he wants to fill it fast he has to make himself very unhealthy, but if he can't afford to do that he can just give himself a mild cold.  It won't fill the metalminds as fast, but it's better than nothing.  Senses, speed, strength, and mental speed work the same.

 

Wakefulness is a little different.  You can't choose how fast to fill or tap it, only how long to do so.  I would classify this as a boolean style of storage.

 

The most interesting we've seen is memory.  If I were to make storing memory work with the quantitative method it would be that while you were storing you would have trouble remembering things.  It could be anything from bad remembering names and birthdays, to absentminded, to full on Alzheimer's.  You wouldn't be storing specific memories, but the ability to remember.  If you were tapping memory it would go in the opposite direction, taking you from normal to having a very good memory or all the way up to photographic memory.  While this would be useful, it's not as powerful as the Memory abilities that Sazed uses.  

 

Sazed doesn't store memory so much as he stores memories.  Not once does he talk about storing or tapping a piece of a memory.  How would you even define such a thing?  But with the normal Feruchemical abilities it's easy to see how he would store strength for ten minutes then only tap half of it to get just a little boost, saving the rest for later.  That never happens with memory.  In fact, it looks to me like time isn't involved with storing memories.  You just focus on the memory you want to store, and then suddenly the entire memory is stored.  The same goes for tapping memories.  You find where you stored the memory, and then tap it to instantly remember the whole thing.  Memories are stored in chunks, while most Feruchemy stores things like a fluid.  I would call this an atomic style.

 

Another big difference between the normal quantitative style of storing and the atomic style is that with the quantitative style you are only diminished while you are storing.  Wax doesn't permanently store his weight in his metal minds.  To stay light on his feet he has to be constantly storing.  With memories though you store it and then it's gone until you tap it.  So between storing and tapping you are diminished with memory, but with most attributes you're only diminished while storing.

 

So, bringing the conversation back to the main topic, I think Investiture would use an atomic style, rather than a quantitative style.  This would mean that you would just focus on the investiture you want to store, and then it would be gone into the Nicrosil until you choose to tap it.  

 

We don't know what would happen if someone were to do Copper Compounding, but I'm betting it would have to be quite different from the kinds of Compounding we see with quantitative style Feruchemy.  It's possible that it would do nothing besides restore the memory.  Or perhaps it would restore the memory but it would be supercharged (If anyone else reads Dresden Files, I'm thinking of powerful memories like Harry's memories from when he uses the Sight).  Or perhaps it would do something completely unexpected, like opening a portal to Shadesmar.  IDK.  

 

The point is that now after thinking about all this stuff, I think that storing Investiture in Nicrosil would work like storing memories, so there's no time involved, you're diminished between storing and tapping, and compounding it could have a number of possible effects that I don't feel confident I could predict until at the very least we know what would happen if someone were to do Copper Compounding.

 

And now that I've spent so much time talking about Feruchemy, I think I'll try to avoid it for the remainder of my posts on this thread.  Maybe I'll try to think of fun ways to combine Forgery with other Realmatic arts.

[Dysphoric Kitten]

(long explanation about quantitive atoms and boolean algorithms)

I hate copper. But this section made me think: perhaps you can atomicize all storing? Which would mean that keepers used it atomicized because it is more precise. But, in practical situations, it is better to have quantitive copper, which exists. You could store anything like that, and you would be able to compound copper normally. 

 

Try atomized Feruchemical pewter. Makes sense.

 

When compounding atomicized properties, you transfer the metalmind into a new one, and get a copy, only one, dumped onto you, as if tapped. With copper, you get the metalmind store in your metalmind of choice, and have all knowledge in your head as well. No increase in detail or something, that makes no sense, except if Harmony is watching over you.

 

 

Copper Compounding would do something completely unexpected, like opening a portal to Shadesmar.  IDK.  

 

Shadesmar portal FOR THE WIN!

[Chromium Compounder]

I hate copper. But this section made me think: perhaps you can atomicize all storing? Which would mean that keepers used it atomicized because it is more precise. But, in practical situations, it is better to have quantitive copper, which exists. You could store anything like that, and you would be able to compound copper normally. 

 

Try atomized Feruchemical pewter. Makes sense.

While I agree that at least some metals may be able to do either quantitative or atomic as long as you know how, I think that the things stored atomically wouldn't be quite the same as the ones stored quantitatively.  

 

If that's the case, then I think the key to using Feruchemy atomically is finding something which fits that metal and also can be defined Realmatically as a specific thing.  Again I go to Shai for wisdom.  She can't forge a part of something, only an entire thing.  Storing memories atomically you take a specific memory and store it.  How do you define a memory?  Is it a consecutive set of experiences?  No, not really.  That's not how we organize our memories.  Let's say Sazed wanted to record a book the size of TFE.  I would think it would be hard to do the whole book in one memory because it's too big, so he would break it into chapters.  But let's say in the middle of chapter 5 he needs to go to the bathroom.  Do you think going to the bathroom will go into the memory?  I doubt it.  It's not relevant to the memory.  Yes, technically it happened with it, but so what.  The memory is of what's happening in the book.  

 

So, the point is that to store things atomically you need to have something which can be defined as a specific Realmatic entity and which can be stored in that type of metal.  

 

For Pewter, I have trouble defining portions of my physical strength as being separate from each other, unless you want to separate it by body part, and then atomically storing the strength of one part would make that part be completely atrophied.  I picture the legs of an olympic runner changing to be as weak as those of a paraplegic.  And as this is atomic storage, tapping it would simply return it to normal.  It could possibly be useful through compounding, or perhaps as a means of disguise, but that's about it.

 

For most of Feruchemy, it's hard to define Realmatic entities which fit into that metal's mold.  Memory we've already seen.  If you had a split personality I can see it working for Aluminum, but otherwise trying to do it would probably result in you becoming a vegetable.  Duralumin you could perhaps store your connection with a specific person.  The only other one I can think of a way to get it to work atomically is Nicrosil, and with Nicrosil I think it would be hard to do it any other way.

 

And now you've forced me back into talking about Feruchemy, so I'm going to ask the question of what would happen if you were to Forge a metalmind? 

 

Would anything unexpected happen, akin to Compounding?  Would the metalmind resist all forgery?  Would you only be able to forge it physically, but be unable to effect the Feruchemical charge within?  

 

That brings up another question.  What is required to do things like Compounding?  We know that Feruchemy is of both Preservation and Ruin, while Allomancy is only of Preservation.  Is that relationship required?  Also Feruchemy is End Neutral while Allomancy is End Positive.  Is that required?

[Gamma Fiend]

Hmm. had an interesting thought the other day.

What if someone awakened a bead of Lerasium? Or maybe even Atium?
What possible commands could you give, do you think?
Would they act like Nightblood, or have different personalities?

[Mailliw73]

Hoid. If you Awaken Lerasium, then draw an Aon while holding it and then infuse it with Stormlight and swallow it, you become Hoid

Edited September 9, 2013 by Mailliw73

[jag519]

Hoid. If you Awaken Lerasium, then draw an Aon while holding it and then infuse it with Stormlight and swallow it, you become Hoid

I believe it!

 

I'm only a little bit into Way of Kings, but if you awaken one of THOSE swords, I think there would be some crazy rust. Though I don't know enough about those to know if that would even be possible. Same if you awaken That armor. 

[Miyabi]

Hoid. If you Awaken Lerasium, then draw an Aon while holding it and then infuse it with Stormlight and swallow it, you become Hoid

This just made my day.