Theory: Gavilar and the Parshendi

[Wherethewindgoes]

Why hello.

 

Hearing the reading of Eshonai's viewpoint, as well as tossing the whole Parshendi situation around in my head, has caused a rather complicated and far-fetched theory to form, so I decided to share it with all of you to see what you thought.

 

To start, I'll list a few of the things we know about the Parshendi based on Way of Kings and the readings:

 

1) They bond with spren to create different forms. They used to know hundreds, but now only know of five.

 

2) They killed Gavilar because he told them he was going to do something that would bring back their gods.

 

3) According to Jasnah, they are the Voidbringers.

 

4) They are of the same species of the Parshmen, who are in slave form, which is really just a lack of a form.

 

So, going off that, I'll start with Gavilar's murder.

 

If Gavilar was telling the Parshendi something, presumably it would have had to do with them. What if Gavilar told them he was going to release the Parshmen? He saw "wild" Parshendi,  "Parshmen who could think", and realized that maybe the Parshmen were similar to the Parshendi and might have the capacity to think as well, and maybe the humans were wrong to enslave them.

 

That makes sense, right? Seems logical? Well, probably that's the only part of this theory that's going to.

 

One might wonder why releasing the Parshmen would make the Parshendi gods return, and why the Parshendi wouldn't want them to. In order to figure this out you have to take a few steps back.

 

Consider the forms the Parshendi have. They mention that the forms come from bonding with certain spren. It is theorized that spren, being of Honor, bond with people based on honorable actions; for instance, Szeth has Surgebinding because he follows his oathstone.

 

So why would the Parshendi be able to bond with spren? Because of an oath they have to their gods.

 

Then  look at another thing: Where the Voidbringers come from. People say they are formed in Damnation. But what if they are like the Heralds, and are immortal but return to Damnation between Desolations? This might explain the respect they have for their dead--the "souls" of the bodies aren't actually dead, so they don't want to disturb the bodies, or something like that.

 

Imagine hundreds of years ago, at the Last Desolation. The Parshendi are in "Voidbringer" form, a very powerful and dangerous form, and are fighting the humans by order of their gods. The humans defeat them, like before.

 

But what if, this one time, like the Heralds, they decide they don't want to go to Damnation again? What if they abandon their gods, refusing to return to Damnation, instead letting themselves be enslaved by the humans? They betray their oaths to their gods and get stuck in slave form without the ability to bond with spren.

 

But not all of Parshendi did this. Some stayed with their gods, returning to Damnation. But there weren't enough of them to fight the humans in another Desolation. So their gods took away the knowledge of their other forms and left them on Roshar, giving them the task of getting the other Parshendi back from slavery. Over time they stopped striving toward this or began to avoid this duty (this could also have something to do with them losing forms), living in the forests of Natanatan, away from the humans, never coming in contact, hoping they would never have to fight in the Desolations again. They kill Gavilar because if he freed the
Parshmen, the gods will return and there will be another Desolation.

 

Any thoughts?

 

[hoser]

Hey, fun theory!  Welcome to the forums!  Please forgive me if I get a bit detail-oriented. 

So, going off that, I'll start with Gavilar's murder.

 

If Gavilar was telling the Parshendi something, presumably it would have had to do with them. What if Gavilar told them he was going to release the Parshmen? He saw "wild" Parshendi,  "Parshmen who could think", and realized that maybe the Parshmen were similar to the Parshendi and might have the capacity to think as well, and maybe the humans were wrong to enslave them.

When Gavilar is killed, he tells Szeth it is too late, implying that something important is already done (presumably whatever the Parshendi wanted to avoid (my assumption). 

The Desolation is apparently on the way and the death rattles started at about that time (according to Taravangian).  I think the Desolation coming means that the Parshendi gods will return. 

But the parshmen haven't been freed.  There is no indication that I can see that their status was changed recently. 

 

...Consider the forms the Parshendi have. They mention that the forms come from bonding with certain spren. It is theorized that spren, being of Honor, bond with people based on honorable actions;

Actually, Nohadon complains that not all spren are as discerning as honorspren (or words to that effect).  Apparently a surgebinder had made a somewhat selfish bid for power, creating a war on the eve of the desolation.  Although, some claim that Nohadon rewrote the rules for surgebinding. 

 

for instance, Szeth has Surgebinding because he follows his oathstone.

Do we know this?  I believe that he has Surgebinding because of the Shardblade that is bound to him. 

 

... Over time they stopped striving toward this or began to avoid this duty (this could also have something to do with them losing forms), living in the forests of Natanatan, away from the humans, never coming in contact, hoping they would never have to fight in the Desolations again. They kill Gavilar because if he freed the
Parshmen, the gods will return and there will be another Desolation.

In the Eshonai point of view, she implies that they are relatively recently in the area.  They may not even have been on Roshar.  Clearly they are not honoring the oaths to their Gods.  Why do they have any forms?

 

Some quotes from the readings:

Eshonai herself had discovered these ruins years ago, just before her expedition that had first encountered humans. Only five years ago now, but also an eternity. She remembered what it had felt like, striking out, exploring a wide world she had thought infinite.

 

  All the Shattered Plains had once been populated, but the largest congestion of buildings had been here at the center. And so the ruins of her people made their home in the ruins of the old city. They named it Neurock, exile, for it was where they had come to be separated from their gods.

 

Instead, she and the others had ordered the murder of their king in a desperate gambit to stop the Parshendi gods from returning. Well, that hadn’t worked out.

 

She finally reached her home, at least the rock formation she called home. It had once been a dome, though much smaller than the ones the humans had claimed as their warcamps. Her people lived in those before abandoning them for the security of the Shattered Plains with its chasms the humans couldn’t jump.

 

If the Parshendi had been living where the warcamps are, it doesn't seem like an expedition would be needed to discover the Shattered Plains. 

 

Edit: added quotes

Edited August 3, 2013 by hoser

[Wherethewindgoes]

Hey, fun theory!  Welcome to the forums! 

 

Thanks!

 

When Gavilar is killed, he tells Szeth it is too late, implying that something important is already done (presumably whatever the Parshendi wanted to avoid (my assumption). 

 

But at that point he didn't know Szeth was sent by the Parshendi; he thought it was someone named Thaidakar. Admittedly, when Kaladin kills that Shardbearer while in Amaram's army, Amaram hints that Thaidakar could have been part of the Ghostbloods (I don't have the book with me but that's what it says in the Coppermind), so I guess what Gavilar did that Thaidakar didn't want probably had something to do with the Parshendi and the Desolation.

 

The Desolation is apparently on the way and the death rattles started at about that time (according to Taravangian).  I think the Desolation coming means that the Parshendi gods will return. 

But the parshmen haven't been freed.  There is no indication that I can see that their status was changed recently. 

 

What if the Desolation is coming because something about them is going to change? With Jasnah deciding that they're the Voidbringers, I doubt people are going to want to keep them as slaves anymore.

 

Do we know this?  I believe that he has Surgebinding because of the Shardblade that is bound to him. 

 

Oh, that's possible; what I said was just a guess.

 

 

In the Eshonai point of view, she implies that they are relatively recently in the area.  They may not even have been on Roshar.  Clearly they are not honoring the oaths to their Gods.  Why do they have any forms?

 

Maybe they didn't stay on Roshar the whole time, but instead went to Damnation and have just now returned with the task of starting the next Desolation?

 

 

Admittedly, most of these are kind of thin ways to fill in holes, and the theory's probably completely wrong, but, well, I might as well try.

[hoser]

Admittedly, most of these are kind of thin ways to fill in holes, and the theory's probably completely wrong, but, well, I might as well try.

Ideally, we are just trying to puzzle it out together.  Your theory raised questions for me and I thought I could give you some more data to work with.

 

The parshendi, like Szeth, are a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.  I admire your willingness to try to pierce the veil. 

 

The questions you are trying to answer are puzzling. 

 

Who are the Parshendi gods?

 

Odium is the obvious heavy.  But he is singular and I can't imagine him creating a race. 

I can imagine Cultivation creating the Parshendi.  But she is singular and I don't see her using them to try to wipe out everyone in desolations.

Maybe the gods are the Voidbringers corrupting Cultivation's Parshendi, maybe with corrupted spren?  But why do the Alethi think the Parshendi refer to the chasmfiends as gods?

 

Why wouldn't they want them back?

 

Where have they been?

 

What happened to them for all this time?

 

What role did they play way back when?

 

Edit: punctuation

Edited August 3, 2013 by hoser

[Windrunner]

My personal theory is that, if the Parshendi are the Voidbringers or can be, their gods are the Unmade, who I believe to be the opposites of the Heralds.

[skaa]

Hi there, Wherethewindgoes!

 

Then  look at another thing: Where the Voidbringers come from. People say they are formed in Damnation. But what if they are like the Heralds, and are immortal but return to Damnation between Desolations? This might explain the respect they have for their dead--the "souls" of the bodies aren't actually dead, so they don't want to disturb the bodies, or something like that.

 

Imagine hundreds of years ago, at the Last Desolation. The Parshendi are in "Voidbringer" form, a very powerful and dangerous form, and are fighting the humans by order of their gods. The humans defeat them, like before.

 

But what if, this one time, like the Heralds, they decide they don't want to go to Damnation again? What if they abandon their gods, refusing to return to Damnation, instead letting themselves be enslaved by the humans? They betray their oaths to their gods and get stuck in slave form without the ability to bond with spren.

 

 

I myself have speculated before (as part of a very complicated set of wild theories) that Voidbringers had Death->Damnation->Resurrection cycles just like the Heralds. It's nice to know someone else thought of that idea.

 

It's fun making these kinds of speculations while we still have nothing but a few tantalizing clues about the Voidbringers. As for the Parshmen slaves, I think it's probable that there was a (seemingly) good justification for enslaving them in the past, but it would be nice if the protagonists could find a way to abolish slavery and make peace with the Parshendi in the end.

[junior]

The humans defeat them, like before.

 

Did they?

 

There are indications throughout the book that the humans were tricked into thinking they won, when in reality they lost.  It's not entirely clear when this loss occured, what the result of the loss was, or why the humans were able to be tricked in the first place.  But what if it's tied into the reason why Parshmen are everywhere in human society?

[Binnut]

Did they?

 

There are indications throughout the book that the humans were tricked into thinking they won, when in reality they lost.  It's not entirely clear when this loss occured, what the result of the loss was, or why the humans were able to be tricked in the first place.  But what if it's tied into the reason why Parshmen are everywhere in human society?

I think that they "won" the desolation, (battle) and is tricked that it is the last battle and that they have defeated them for the last time. They think they have won the war, but they only won a battle. There will come a new desolation, and they are not prepared.

[Gloom]

Your legends say that you won. But the truth is that we lost. And we are losing."

A direct quote from the Almighty. At least if you believe Dalinars visions.

[Windrunner]

They still won the Last Desolation though, because humanity wasn't destroyed by the Voidbringers. I view the, "we lost" as being "we lost in the long due to the fact that the Heralds quit".

[junior]

The destruction/survival of humanity might not have been the focus of the last desolation.  The fight might have been over an intermediate goal, with humanity's destruction expected to be the result of the *next* desolation - i.e. the one that's referred to multiple times as the Final Desolation.

[Shardlet]

I think it is important to keep in mind that the fight is between Odium, Honor, and Cultivation.  Roshar is just the stage where this fight is playing out.  I would expect that Odium would want to destroy humanity only if it either achieved the goal of destroying Honor and Cultivation or facilitated that goal.  He did not appear to care a whit about the people of Sel.

[Windrunner]

I think the goal of getting his power back might want to be considered too. Odium's invested himself in Roshar now, unlike other worlds like Sel, so he won't leave without getting all that he's invested back.

[Shardlet]

Yes, I did neglect his power.  It remains to be seen, of course, how and how much Odium has invested in Roshar.

[Windrunner]

I think it is a fair amount.

QUESTION:

When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

BRANDON:

Umm... Odium never really settled on a planet. He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things. Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be adifficult process. So yes it is very tough to leave.

[Miyabi]

I like your theory here, but if the Parshmen had their Spren Bonds forcibly removed and that's what makes them hollow, how does simply freeing them cause their Gods to come back? I'm not clear on what you mean here.