Voidbinding

[don_karma_II]

I'm not sure if this is discussed here or not.. During my re-re-re-read I found this and it has been bothering me ever since. 

"The priests began to claim visions and prophecies, though such things had been denounced by the Heralds themselves. Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future.”

 

this is spoken by Kadash in TWOK Chapter 18 High Prince of War. 

 

Now we know Taravangian tries to predict future by drawing blood of the patients in Kharbranth. So is he unknowingly void binding? In the conversation with Szeth, he says these words, “We do not know why some speak when others do not,” Taravangian said. “But the dying see something. It began seven years ago, about the time when King Gavilar was investigating the Shattered Plains for the first time.” His eyes grew distant. “It is coming, and these people see it. On that bridge between life and the endless ocean of death, they view something. Their words might save us.”

 

Also Almighty says to Dalinar "Act with honor, and honor will aid you" . Does it mean that Dalinar will attract honorspren like Kaladin or does it imply that Kaladin being Child of Honor will be attracted towards Dalinar and will help him in his work?

 

thanks in advance...

 

[jturner]

"Act with honor and Honor will aid you..." this is coming directly from Tanavast holding the Honor shard...knowing that he is going to die. So he is saying, the shard, Honor, will aid you if you act with honor...even though the shard doesn't act with intent, he may have left something behind that will guide someone toward further use of the shard (like honorspren)

 

this may go beyond honorspren, though, if all the orders powers come from Honor, right? Possibly?

 

Also, what if what was keeping honorspren from coming to Dalinar was the Shardblade? Syl hates it....like the mist not being able to connect with Vin b/c of her earing....what if the shards are of Odium? What if shardblades are an odium copy of honorblades....tricksy!!

[hoser]

Voidbinding does seem mysterious. 

 

Honor doesn't seem to have a problem trying to see the future and sharing what he sees.  The Hierocracy, Sunmaker or both may have been corrupted by Odium.  The Hierocracy may have been guided by the same visions that Dalinar was and the Sunmaker may have corrupted the teachings to discredit them.  We don't know what the heralds really said.

 

There may be some distinction that we don't understand yet to differentiate acceptable ways to anticipate the future. 

[Vortaan]

Random speculation: Voidbinding apparently looks towards the future, the dying see the future, and death is commonly described as a void... is it possible that the power of Voidbinding requires death to work? If so, it puts it in line with Hemalurgy as an end-negative art.

[Senor Feesh]

I'm intrigued by your interpretation of Voidbinding, I think it requires further consideration.

 

I'd never actually taken the time to consider the name - it's a problem I have with Fantasy books quite often; I tend to just accept whatever terms are thrown at me as part of the setting and don't really think about why the author chose to name them as they did.

 

Another possible interpretation then, now I'm thinking of it - Voidbinding as opposed to Surgebinding.

 

If Surgebinding requires an inflow of power (as with Stormlight), then it would stand to reason that Voidbinding would require a 'void' of some kind - death could indeed be the requirement; however I wonder if there could be other explanations. Is there perhaps some way to drain spiritual energy from things? Perhaps something almost like the forceful removal of a Breath (although not actually a Breath, as that is something native to Nalthis).

 

If human life on Roshar is Invested to some degree (as we know humans on Nalthis and Scadrial to be) is it possible that Voidbinding removes that Investiture, and is fuelled by the absence thus created? This is probably a stretch, but you have made my brain sit up and pay attention.

[Vortaan]

I'm intrigued by your interpretation of Voidbinding, I think it requires further consideration.

 

I'd never actually taken the time to consider the name - it's a problem I have with Fantasy books quite often; I tend to just accept whatever terms are thrown at me as part of the setting and don't really think about why the author chose to name them as they did.

 

Another possible interpretation then, now I'm thinking of it - Voidbinding as opposed to Surgebinding.

 

If Surgebinding requires an inflow of power (as with Stormlight), then it would stand to reason that Voidbinding would require a 'void' of some kind - death could indeed be the requirement; however I wonder if there could be other explanations. Is there perhaps some way to drain spiritual energy from things? Perhaps something almost like the forceful removal of a Breath (although not actually a Breath, as that is something native to Nalthis).

 

If human life on Roshar is Invested to some degree (as we know humans on Nalthis and Scadrial to be) is it possible that Voidbinding removes that Investiture, and is fuelled by the absence thus created? This is probably a stretch, but you have made my brain sit up and pay attention.

 

I hadn't thought of taking Investiture, but that is interesting. We can also speculate that the Essences that Dalinar fights in his vision are the product of Voidbinding. So, theory: All humans on Roshar contain some mixture of the Ten Essences. Voidbinding possibly removes some of these essences, either from the Voidbinder or from others, to create it's effects. This lack of balance allows Stormlight to be held perfectly by Voidbringers, as they are no longer quite human and the Stormlight serves to fill the gap. 

[Nepene]

He could be Voidbinding, or doing whatever magics Cultivation has. Honor mentioned that Cultivation was good at seeing the future and

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/1a3fj0/discussion_of_the_week_shadesmar_truthspren/c8veqw0

 

Brandon has said that Cultivation is most like Ruin, and so it would make sense that her magics were end negative. He could be cultivating death.

[NewbSombrero]

Brandon has said that Cultivation is most like Ruin, and so it would make sense that her magics were end negative. He could be cultivating death.

 

No. What is said is that Cultivation is most compatible with Ruin, which is very different from saying that they are most alike. And the quote you linked said nothing about end-positivity or -negativity. You're making some major leaps here of which I am rather dubious. 

[Nepene]

No. What is said is that Cultivation is most compatible with Ruin, which is very different from saying that they are most alike. And the quote you linked said nothing about end-positivity or -negativity. You're making some major leaps here of which I am rather dubious. 

 

I suppose technically compatibility doesn't require things to be alike, though normally compatibility involves some shared properties.

 

This thread is about speculation, talking about voidbinding and death quotes which we know almost nothing about. We can't discuss it in any depth without making mental leaps.

 

For example earlier,

 

Also, what if what was keeping honorspren from coming to Dalinar was the Shardblade? Syl hates it....like the mist not being able to connect with Vin b/c of her earing....what if the shards are of Odium? What if shardblades are an odium copy of honorblades....tricksy!!

 

We don't have any information on this so it's very hard for us to make well founded statements. You could go through this thread and pick holes in almost every post.

 

As a fan though, I enjoy speculation. When the second book comes out we can see how accurate our speculation was and speculate more.

[Senor Feesh]

I would say complimentary properties rather than shared. For example, ruin wants to destroy, whereas cultivation wants to remove undesirable aspects of things and encourage desirable ones. Ergo, cultivation would be happy to allow ruin to destroy specific things.

[Vortaan]

I would say complimentary properties rather than shared. For example, ruin wants to destroy, whereas cultivation wants to remove undesirable aspects of things and encourage desirable ones. Ergo, cultivation would be happy to allow ruin to destroy specific things.

 

This makes me think of Harmony, for some reason. Like Cultivation is a mixture of Preservation and Ruin.

[Senor Feesh]

This makes me think of Harmony, for some reason. Like Cultivation is a mixture of Preservation and Ruin.

 

Funnily enough, I had a similar thought when writing that post - Preserving desirable things whilst Ruining undesirable - but I suppose one could argue that Cultivation requires more than preservation; you'd actively encourage/promote certain things. 

[lordofsoup]

I would put Cultivation more towards Ruin on a scale of Ruin to Preservation.  If you make Ruin change and Preservation stasis  Cultivation is guided change.  

If the Shards were divided into groups of four, like the 16 Metals, I would put Cultivation in the same arc as Ruin and Preservation.

[Morsk]

I think of the Shard intents as aspects of the creative process, and it's important none of them be too close to just "creation" otherwise they'd be Adonalsium not a Shard.

So I see Cultivation as very limited: "I like this one thing. I'm going to focus on this one thing, and make it grow." If we give Cultivation any more than that, it stops feeling like a flawed and isolated aspect of creation to me. Cultivation should have trouble creating things from nothing, or changing things into something completely different.

[NewbSombrero]

I suppose technically compatibility doesn't require things to be alike, though normally compatibility involves some shared properties.

 

This thread is about speculation, talking about voidbinding and death quotes which we know almost nothing about. We can't discuss it in any depth without making mental leaps.

 

My issue was how you inserted things that aren't even really implied by the linked Brandon quote (i.e., Cultivation magic being end-negative) without differentiating it from what is actually stated. I'm all for speculation and a big fan as well, but it's always important to differentiate between evidence (what we actually know) and speculation.

[Nepene]

My issue was how you inserted things that aren't even really implied by the linked Brandon quote (i.e., Cultivation magic being end-negative) without differentiating it from what is actually stated. I'm all for speculation and a big fan as well, but it's always important to differentiate between evidence (what we actually know) and speculation.

 

Ah no, the second part was just meant to be theorizing. I thought that was clear from me saying that it would make sense that it was end negative, as opposed to stating it as a fact. Evidently not.

 

Could you give me your exact standards? Would you say all speculation on this thread where theories are presented as fact is wrong? For example is

 

For example, ruin wants to destroy, whereas cultivation wants to remove undesirable aspects of things and encourage desirable ones.

 

That bad?

 

On the main topic, I wonder if Cultivation has a creative process counterpart like Ruin and Preservation. If there were four creative shards that would make them fit nicely into a group, like with four groups of four metals of Scadrial.

[blackmagic3]

To get back on topic at the very beginning doesn't Szeth say that Voidbringers could hold Stormlight in perfectly. Does this not imply that Surgebinding and Voidbinding are not exclusive to humans or Voidbringers respectively or that both Voidbinding and Surgebinding use Stormlight. Any thoughts?

[blackmagic3]

Edit:Sorry about the double post, I posted it on my phone and something went wrong.

Edited April 4, 2013 by blackmagic3

[don_karma_II]

"Act with honor and Honor will aid you..." this is coming directly from Tanavast holding the Honor shard...knowing that he is going to die. So he is saying, the shard, Honor, will aid you if you act with honor...even though the shard doesn't act with intent, he may have left something behind that will guide someone toward further use of the shard (like honorspren)

 

this may go beyond honorspren, though, if all the orders powers come from Honor, right? Possibly?

 

Also, what if what was keeping honorspren from coming to Dalinar was the Shardblade? Syl hates it....like the mist not being able to connect with Vin b/c of her earing....what if the shards are of Odium? What if shardblades are an odium copy of honorblades....tricksy!!

 

1. Didn't Sanderson say that all sprens are a mix of honor and cultivation in varying degrees? so all the powers of the orders can't come from honor alone can it?

 

2. I don't think Shardblades  are of Odium.. I think when the Radiants abandoned the shardblades, they lost something... Maybe the intent has to be right.... I think Syl hates it because of what they're now. Maybe Odium changed sonething in it. Twice Dalinar had the shardblade and plate glowing/almost glowing when he was acting honourably. Once when he saved Elokhar and once when he saved Kaladin. Maybe that is what is missing. I still don't think Dalinar will be a KR. 

[NewbSombrero]

1. Didn't Sanderson say that all sprens are a mix of honor and cultivation in varying degrees? so all the powers of the orders can't come from honor alone can it?

 

He said some are just Honor, some are just Cultivation, and some are a mixture.

[Leuthie]

I don't think Odium is willing to.Invest himself in a world enough to create something like Shardblades. Why, when you can use the Investments of others against them? Odium hates and makes others hate. Why use so much of yourself making new objects when the very Intent of your Shard is to make others hate? Change Honor's weapons so that they can be used against his own Intent...

[jturner]

1. Didn't Sanderson say that all sprens are a mix of honor and cultivation in varying degrees? so all the powers of the orders can't come from honor alone can it?

 

2. I don't think Shardblades  are of Odium.. I think when the Radiants abandoned the shardblades, they lost something... Maybe the intent has to be right.... I think Syl hates it because of what they're now. Maybe Odium changed sonething in it. Twice Dalinar had the shardblade and plate glowing/almost glowing when he was acting honourably. Once when he saved Elokhar and once when he saved Kaladin. Maybe that is what is missing. I still don't think Dalinar will be a KR. 

1.Good call. He said that all the orders of knights radiant are present in the drawings at the front of the book; one big circle (power) plus to little circles (minor powers)= an order of knight radiants. 

2. when you say 'they lost something', do you mean the shards then?

[Nepene]

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1999-writing-for-charity-interview/
 

4. Zas: A question related to that. There’s an ideagoing around that all the spren that can Nahel Bond, all Knight Radiant sprenare called Honorspren, and then Nohaden talks specifically about Honorspren. Is that the case? You know, is it just the Windrunner spren, or is it all the spren?

Brandon: I’m going to deal with this in the next book. So I’ll just go ahead and let it be a literal RAFO. It is coming.

(interruption, leading Brandon to lose his train of thought)

So what we are dealing with here is that all Spren are indeed all pieces of the one who has gone, so those spren are all- except the Windrunner spren, the spren like Syl, have certain umm.

Zas: Nohaden mentioned that “All the spren aren’t as discerning as Honorspren.”

Brandon: So there has been dissention among them about who gets to call themselves Honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know “This is what defines an

But the spren you are running into are all (something) ofeither Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able ot be (something).

 

Even though cultivation has some spren that doesn't mean surgebinding has to be from here. Given its association with the knights radiants, people of Honor, I'd assume it's Honor magic. Cultivation presumably has her own magics which her spren may power.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Nepene

[Observer]

The simple prescence of a shard seems to start editing the sDNA of people on the planet, giving them a certain kind of magic. Voidbinding sounds like Odium's magic, and he probably has one, but why would his system simply involve seeing the future? Honor mentioned that was more Cultivation's cup of tea. If I had to guess, Voidbinding was a Cultivation system, and Odium gave it a bad name to prevent anybody from stopping him via futuresight.

[Vortaan]

The simple prescence of a shard seems to start editing the sDNA of people on the planet, giving them a certain kind of magic. Voidbinding sounds like Odium's magic, and he probably has one, but why would his system simply involve seeing the future? Honor mentioned that was more Cultivation's cup of tea. If I had to guess, Voidbinding was a Cultivation system, and Odium gave it a bad name to prevent anybody from stopping him via futuresight.

 

I'd be more inclined to believe this if Dalinar's final vision wasn't of essentially a giant void, with Tanavast saying that this is what Odium wants. I'd also note that Odium seems to be playing a longer game than any Shard we've seen so far. The Desolations were probably to kill Honor and took a couple millenia, and in the meantime he rolled around the Cosmere, taking out two Shards (and it seems like he did that quickly, hence a brief visit), and probably checking on two more. I think something people seem to take for granted is that Odium is more short term, since hatred in most people tends to have a short attention span. But if the very core of your being was hatred, wouldn't you take the very long view to assure the destruction of all that you hated? It's this thought that makes me think Odium has Invested himself in something in the past, briefly, for a longer-term gain.