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Emperor's Soul Theory Discussions


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This book was just jammed full of so much information that I don't even know where to begin. Lets see, here a few things that I noticed off the bat or were pointed out to me to try to get some discussion going.

  • Shai is MaiPon, and there were utensils called MaiPon sticks in Elantris. Did Kiin pick the idea up from MaiPon or is it a remnant of the tie between the MaiPon and the Jindoeese. There's also a question of why their name contains Aon Mai, which represents Honor.
  • Shai prays to the "Unknown God". One of the Shards? Why is he unknown now?
  • Forgery requires organic inks, plants are okay but animals are better. Why? It smacks of Awakening to me.
  • Ralkalest, the unForgeable metal is really interesting. It makes me wonder if it's the physical aspect of one of the Shards.
  • Anthracite is the rock that burns that was in Elantris. Also interesting
  • Explicitly defined Realms is awesome, along with the fact that they are "pagan superstition"
  • "The setting mark finished every Soulstamp, indicating no more carving was to come. Shai had always fancied it to look like the shape of MaiPon, her homeland." Sounds like Aon Aon to me. Makes me wonder if the forms of ChayShan and the Dakhor bone twists also have maps.
  • Anyone can use Forgery. How and why? The other magics seem to be pretty racially distinct.
  • There is red smoke when something has a Soulseal applied to it. Similar to Nightblood's corrupted Breaths and the burning of eyes when someone is killed by s Shardblade?
  • Linchpin stamps, sounds like Hemalurgy and may give a little more insight into why those are needed.
  • MaiPon and Jindoeese are the same race. How did this separation occur?
  • Shai's hunting Hoid now? Potential future member of the Seventeenth Shard?
  • Bloodsealing requires a lot of the body focuses from Stormlight: bone, blood, hair, and nails are mentioned.
  • The MaiPon also worshiped meteorites, calling them "the souls of broken gods". Reference to the Shards?

Okay that's probably good for now. Then here's a couple of random theories and/or beliefs of my own.

Hoid's Role:

Hoid didn't really care about the Scepter of the Moon, what he cared about was Shai getting caught. He wanted her to remake the Emperor so that the Rose Empire would be reformed. It's the only power that could challenge the Wyrn and his Empire, so it's crucial that it survives. It makes me wonder if Hoid had a hand in setting up the assassination attempt as well. His precognition would have been helpful here.

Timeline:

I'm thinking that TES must be set a fair ways after Elantris, I'd say maybe around 30 years or so give or take a bit. The fact is that there is no real hint at these people in Elantris, Brandon seems to have added them in later. So there has to be a reasonable interim period of discovery and interaction here. The Derethi had no idea of this nation, but they've now known long enough to send an ambassador. I think adventurers like Kiin may have known and surely Teod did since they share a continent, but it's not like they would tell Fjorden, considering the iron curtain between the two nations. If I had a potential secret ally I'd keep it on the down-low.

Souls of Broken Gods:

This is really really awesome. It makes me wonder if the rocks that fell from the sky were Soulstone, ralkalest, or anthracite. I think that there's a significant chance that one or more of these things are the physical aspects of Devotion and Dominion. If their Splintering resulted in any physical Splinters, then those would have fallen from the sky, where the Shards seem to spend their time. I'm leaning towards Dominion as being one of them for sure, considering he used to be the god of rocks. I think that ralkalest is the least likely candidate considering it's a metal, and Brandon's done that before. The anthricite is a decent possibility but they don't seem related to any magic, and also I think they might burn up considering that they are burning rocks. Soulstone is used in magic, but again, I'm worried that the heat would have made it uncarvable. So who knows? I think it's probably one of these though.

Bloodsealing:

I did not expect two entirely new systems on Sel. At first I thought that Bloodsealing was simply a subset of Forgery. Howevery his appearance made me think differently, as well as the fact that he is never referred to as a Forger and Frava doesn't use him to study Shai's work. The seal gave me pause, but it doesn't work like any of Shai's Soulseals do. I think they must work differently. Forgery also doesn't require anything from the people it's used on, no blood or etc. Also Forgery is all about possibilities. And I'd say the possibility of a walking skeleton is zero, so it can't be Forgery at work. It seems really really similar to Awakening, so I can't wait to see more of it.

All right, anything cool you guys noticed that I didn't? Or maybe you've got some thoughts on one of these points? I'm super excited to hear from everyone. :D

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I agree with you for the most part. I think if Emperor's Soul was about 30 years after, that sounds about right. Also, that would be about the time of Elantris 2, so that's also interesting...

Ralkalest, the unForgeable metal is really interesting. It makes me wonder if it's the physical aspect of one of the Shards.

Ralkalest starts with an R, like Rayse. Also sounds malevolent. Therefore, Ralkalest is a physical embodiment of Odium.

BEST. THEORY. EVER.

There are absolutely no flaws in logic with this.

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Ralkalest is the only one of those materials whose special property seems inherently magical, though. I've forgotten much of what I learned in chemistry, but a rock that burns, that's not too impossible, right? And using heat to harden something, that's fairly mundane too. But "can't be forged" is a property that is specifically connected to the magic system. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's Splinters, but it does suggest to me that it's magical in nature whereas the others aren't necessarily.

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I think we can agree that these three substances can be tied to the shards, and the only shards we know of that were around Sel were Devotion, Dominion, and Odium.

Rakalest doesn't seem like it would be devotion so it's either Dominion or Odium. And Devotion is my bet for Soulstone.

The MaiPon symbol that Shai uses seems to indicate that like Elantris, Forging is tied to the Land it originated from. The MaiPon symbol, Shai's discourse on how things in the physical realm "consider" themselves seperate from other things, (like with windows and walls for example. Shai had to stamp them seperately) and Brandon's comment on Sel being "hard to get to" from shadesmar makes me think that we may find a slightly different system of symbols and applications for magic in each and every major nation on Sel.

Populations are Devoted to their nation which has Dominion over them, the nations consider themselves seperate from each other in the spiritual realm, magic developes for at least every major civilization. I'm not sure how this would play out with MaiPon and other nations being absorbed into greater empires. Thoughts?

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I think it's an interesting idea, but I do see a few problems with it. For one, if the Forgery symbol really represents MaiPon, then I don't understand why everyone in the Rose Empire would be able to use it. They don't consider themselves to be MaiPon, they consider the MaiPon to be a part of the Empire. Another problem I see is that if the symbols really represented the political boundaries of the nations, then Aon Aon encompasses all of Duladel as well. In addition to that, shouldn't Duladel have had it's own magic? There was no mention of it. And why hasn't ChayShan vanished now that Jindo has become part of the Empire. Also there's the fact that no one from another race has ever become an Elantrian, despite how long they lived in Arelon. Surely some of those would have considered themselves citziens of Arelon, even if they weren't Aonic? People like Shuden, whose family lived there, who was born there, and who was actually a Lord of Arelon. And Teos don't get their own magic, even though they have their own nation. Some of these could be explained away by the changes being brief so the sense of belonging still remains, but Teod and Arelon have been separate for centuries.

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I can't help but still think it has something to do with the nations, or maybe the races.

Maybe having Devotion's shardpool in Elantris gave that nation some additional perks.

Maybe a nation has to have a large splinter of one or both of the shards to develop magic.

Maybe the land itself chooses who can or cannot use their magic.

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I think Ralkalest is aluminum. Just saying. I don't think that it is, because the focuses are different from planet to planet. But it would be cool.

EDIT- Also, here's what Brandon's said about the timeline:

Chasm

10 years

Elantris

10 years

Elantris 2

10 years

Elantris 3

???10 years????

Emperor's Soul??

So if it's 30 years after Elantris, that likely means that the whole Elantris vs Derethi thing has been wrapped up, and the Derethi religion is more peaceful now (but that's mostly wild speculation)

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I can't help but still think it has something to do with the nations, or maybe the races.

Maybe having Devotion's shardpool in Elantris gave that nation some additional perks.

Maybe a nation has to have a large splinter of one or both of the shards to develop magic.

Maybe the land itself chooses who can or cannot use their magic.

I'm thinking it may be more about racial/ethnic groups than nations per se (though perhaps those groups are based on nations that existed when Aona and Skai were still around). The Arelons and Teoish are both described as Aonic peoples, so both can become Elantrians if within the city's area-of-effect. Same goes for Dulas, who are supposed to be part-Aonic, part-Jindo (presumably they can also use ChayShan with proper training). The Jindos have ChayShan and the Fjordell the Dakhor magic, of course. The Mysteries I'm not counting as a magic system, since Elantris treats it as a bastardized version of the Duladen Jesker religion than a genuine form of magic. The Bloodsealers are referred to as their own race, and Forging seems to have originated with the MaiPon. Of course, that doesn't explain how Forging spread beyond the MaiPon or why the Grands or Strikers don't seem to have their own magic systems. I'm thinking therefore that even if this is right (which admittedly is just a hope) I'm still missing something.

Also, with the exception of ChayShan, all of these systems utilize written symbols to produce their effects, though in the case of the Dakhor those symbols are written onto the practitioner's bones. I'll go out on a limb and say that ChayShan is not an exception, but that its symbols are traced in the air by the user's body via the tai chi-esque forms.

Edited by MasterGhandalf
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I think it's an interesting idea, but I do see a few problems with it. For one, if the Forgery symbol really represents MaiPon, then I don't understand why everyone in the Rose Empire would be able to use it. They don't consider themselves to be MaiPon, they consider the MaiPon to be a part of the Empire. Another problem I see is that if the symbols really represented the political boundaries of the nations, then Aon Aon encompasses all of Duladel as well. In addition to that, shouldn't Duladel have had it's own magic? There was no mention of it. And why hasn't ChayShan vanished now that Jindo has become part of the Empire. Also there's the fact that no one from another race has ever become an Elantrian, despite how long they lived in Arelon. Surely some of those would have considered themselves citziens of Arelon, even if they weren't Aonic? People like Shuden, whose family lived there, who was born there, and who was actually a Lord of Arelon. And Teos don't get their own magic, even though they have their own nation. Some of these could be explained away by the changes being brief so the sense of belonging still remains, but Teod and Arelon have been separate for centuries.

My thinking is that the boundaries and maps represented in Forgery and AonDor is based on ancient political borders that existed when the systems were first created, as opposed the the current ones. I also think that assuming each nationality should get its own magic system is being a bit unilateral. It seams logical to me that current day races would not all have their own magic systems. Some of these races may not have existed originally. Alternitavely these "powers" weren't necessarily distributed evenly to begin with.

On a completely different topic. Shai's lecture on how an object regards itself (separately or as a part of a whole based on how long it has been that way, ie the pieces of the desk regarding themselves as just the desk). Made me think of a quote from Brandon about time bumbles during his Q&A a couple weeks ago. He was saying that how an object moves in and out of a time bubble depends on how it views itself. Anyway, detailed theorizing should probably be reserved until the embargo on TES is lifted :).

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I think Ralkalest is aluminum. Just saying. I don't think that it is, because the focuses are different from planet to planet. But it would be cool.

EDIT- Also, here's what Brandon's said about the timeline:

Chasm

10 years

Elantris

10 years

Elantris 2

10 years

Elantris 3

???10 years????

Emperor's Soul??

So if it's 30 years after Elantris, that likely means that the whole Elantris vs Derethi thing has been wrapped up, and the Derethi religion is more peaceful now (but that's mostly wild speculation)

Was Elantris going to be a trilogy? I thought it was just supposed to have a sequel (like Warbreaker) until obviously Emperor's Soul was wrote up.

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Ralkalest is the only one of those materials whose special property seems inherently magical, though. I've forgotten much of what I learned in chemistry, but a rock that burns, that's not too impossible, right? And using heat to harden something, that's fairly mundane too. But "can't be forged" is a property that is specifically connected to the magic system. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's Splinters, but it does suggest to me that it's magical in nature whereas the others aren't necessarily.

Yeah, but aluminum has exactly the same property (can't be Pushed or Pulled) and it's a perfectly ordinary metal.

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Hello.

Long time fan of these forums, first time poster. While reading TES one question was bothering me the entire time about Soul Stamping. Dose Soul stamping only effect the present, because if it changes the history of the item then we get into the whole time paradox issues. Did I miss that explanation somewhere? Thanks.

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Hello.

Long time fan of these forums, first time poster. While reading TES one question was bothering me the entire time about Soul Stamping. Dose Soul stamping only effect the present, because if it changes the history of the item then we get into the whole time paradox issues. Did I miss that explanation somewhere? Thanks.

Yes, it appears to only affect the present. It tells the item that history went a certain way, but the rest of the universe doesn't have to follow along. If that weren't the case, then--besides time paradoxes--no one really ought to remember a Forged item ever being different, since they would never have seen it otherwise in an altered timeline.

Welcome to the forums, btw!

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Hello.

Long time fan of these forums, first time poster. While reading TES one question was bothering me the entire time about Soul Stamping. Dose Soul stamping only effect the present, because if it changes the history of the item then we get into the whole time paradox issues. Did I miss that explanation somewhere? Thanks.

I'd say this is right.

It seems that Stamping primarily fools the object (or person!) into thinking it had a different past. It seems to me that this is done primarily via the congnitive and spiritual realms, with the physical effects following on as a kind of natural side-effect.

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hi!

This makes me think of why it may be dangerous to go to Shadesmar near Sel. If we have many objects that believe in different realities, timelines even, that could make shadesmar a very confusing place. maybe its hard to anchor yourself to the actual reality of sel when it is so diluted with forgeries. Complete speculation, but it seams logical to me.

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Yes, it appears to only affect the present. It tells the item that history went a certain way, but the rest of the universe doesn't have to follow along. If that weren't the case, then--besides time paradoxes--no one really ought to remember a Forged item ever being different, since they would never have seen it otherwise in an altered timeline.

Welcome to the forums, btw!

Especially obvious when Shai uses her Essence Mark, since she remembers, and has the skills of, a past she knows is false.

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[*]Shai prays to the "Unknown God". One of the Shards? Why is he unknown now?

I think it's a creator deity beyond the Shards. Brandon mentions Raoden benefiting from divine intervention once, in the Elantris Chapter 62-2 Annotation. At the time I wondered if Brandon was being non-canonical about it, and setting the cosmere up as agnostic towards any "true" deities beyond the Shards, with the choice left to the reader. But Shai seems very cosmere-aware, and mentions this Unknown God. And towards the end, Gaotona describes her artistic accomplishment in many ways, the last being "Awesome, yet unseen." I think that's a hint that Shai also benefited from divine intervention.

[*]Forgery requires organic inks, plants are okay but animals are better. Why? It smacks of Awakening to me.

And Hemalurgy, with the blood.

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I got the impression that Bloodsealing had something to do with Forging. At the end Shai says that she has some of the Bloodsealer's blood, so that he cannot hunt her.

Where did you get the idea that the Fool was Hoid. It makes perfect sense.

It also seems to me that there are new magic systems that coincided with Odium's arrival.

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I got the impression that Bloodsealing had something to do with Forging. At the end Shai says that she has some of the Bloodsealer's blood, so that he cannot hunt her.

Where did you get the idea that the Fool was Hoid. It makes perfect sense.

It also seems to me that there are new magic systems that coincided with Odium's arrival.

Bloodsealing is a type of forgery, just as Remembering (what the emperor's Faction does to vases) is.

Hoid, the Fool, was in a scene that got cut from the prologue. Brandon has said that the Fool was Hoid.

Odium arrived and departed years before The Emperor's Soul and before Elantris.

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