Rank - Lighteyes and Darkeyes

[Oxinabox]

I've been trying to work out what it means to have a certain rank,

I've done a particularly indepth search of the text, on the words nahn, dahn and lord.

The goal here is determine what being of a particular rank means.

Find out what that common occupations are done(not nesc. Callings, but actual jobs),

how they live, etc.

General

Ranks are inherited.

(When the army comes to recruit they promise an increase of 1 nahn, for "you and your children")

If someone is of a particular rank, then so too are all there children and there partners.

Darkeyes (Nahn)

There are at least 5 ranks of Darkeyes, called nahn.

The lowest rank refereed to is 5th

I suspect that there is only 5 ranks, as 5th would seem to be pretty low.

There is also Sas nahn, which is a slave. (though what sas means exactly I'm not sure, kaladrin has a slave brand with the glyph pair sas morom which is a district)

At 2nd or 1st nahn has right of travel, and citzenship (not sure exactly what this entails).

I guess below that is a more serf-like lifestyle.

Master-Servants are of 2nd nahn, as is Lirin's family.

the Kings master of the hunt is of 1st nahn.

1st nahn are able to marry into lighteye'ed family.

Lighteyes (Dahn)

There are 10 ranks of Lighteyes, called dahn. (We have confirmation that 10th is the lowest).

I believe any of worse than 5th dahn have to work for a living. (We know at low enough rank some have to work for a living (they become soldiers), the exact rank isn't mentioned)

10th is stated to be only a little better than a darkeyes.

Titles/Positions

I believe the title Brightlord, is applied to any light eyes of 4th dahn or higher.

A female is called "Brightness <name here>" and is a Brightlady

It might be lower, I think we could establish a lower bound if we can find the rank of Matal or Lamaril

Highprince is a thing, I believe they are all 1st dahn.

Citylord appears to be any lord who controls a village or larger. I believe they are mostly 3rd and 4th dahn.

house lord, is refereed to once:

"...The landlords and house lords who played politics in court..."

Not sure exactly what a house lord is

Landlord is referred to quiet often, I believe it is the step below citylord.

(I believe it has a slightly different meaning from its normal english use, and mean a lighteyes who a large area of land outside a city)

Highlord is referred to 4 times.

I believe they are all exactly 2nd dahn. Amaram is referred to twice as a Highlord (the rest of the time he is called Highmarshal, or Brightlord)

They control a district, a large region in a princedom, I guess.

Kaladrin is branded with a glyph pair indicating which highlord's district he become a slave in

I don't know how citylords are decided within that region though since:

Quote Lirin: "I still don’t know which highlord was behind sending him here to torment us"

the term warlord is also used a couple of times, but never referring to any specific person, so i think it just means a leader involved in war.

Military Ranks

I don' think these are directly tied to particular nahn/dahn, but there is a correlation.

I would like to line them up.

Highmarshal - the leader of a large miliary force. "Bightlord Amaram is absendiar highmarshal of our princedom. He is in command of defending our borders while the king and Brightlord Sadeas are away."

(I suggest 1st dahn, or delegated to 2nd dahn)

Infantrylord, Calverylord - Dalinar has these, I don't know about other princes. In charge of all forces of this type. (I suggest 2nd dahn)

Battalionlord - In charge of 1000 man, has many companylords underneath them(I'm confidant this is limited to >=4th dahn)

Companylord - acts under a battalionlord

CaptainLord - these exists in Sadeas's forces. Kaladin when under Amaram says he must report to one, so I guess these guys are 1 step above Sergeant.

Captain - at the end of the book Kaladrin is promoted to Captain. It is implied to be the highest rank that is less than Battalionlord. (but then how does this compare to a CompanyLord?)

What is the difference between a Captain and a CaptainLord?

My theory is if they are of miliary rank X, and a lighteyes, they are refereed to as a X-lord.

Matal is confirmed as being the new captain, when Lamaril is removed. This may be short for captain lord

Sergeant - Gaz was a Sergeant(and a darkeyes)

Squadleader - leads one of many squads under one Sergeant. (I believe the bridge leaders are roughly equal in rank, though not in status)

---

So here is all my collected information.

You can see I've made allot of guesses (most of them are clearly marked).

I can provide arguments for all statements, I think, challenge me if you think I've made a mistake (or if I can't backup a statement)

I would love some criticisms, and suggestions.

I've left allot of open questions in there.

It would be nice to tidy this up and put it on the Coppermind

Edited July 15, 2012 by Oxinabox

[Smidge]

I assumed there were 10 nahns, for symmetry with dahns. Any reason for this not to be the case?

I'm guessing you're assuming only 5 because it says everyone else in Kaladin's hometown was 4th or 5th nahn:

Kal’s family were the only one of second nahn in the town. Everyone else was fourth or fifth, and Kal’s rank made them uncomfortable around him.

I also suspect there must be something like 10 nahn or phrases like 'only a few nahn' make no sense:

"I’m no lordling," Kal spat. "Stormfather, Jost, I’m only a few nahn higher than you are."

Also if farmers tend to be 4th or 5th nahn, it leaves no room for people much lower on the social scale (ie. beggars, whores).

[Oxinabox]

I assumed there were 10 nahns, for symmetry with dahns. Any reason for this not to be the case?

I'm guessing you're assuming only 5 because it says everyone else in Kaladin's hometown was 4th or 5th nahn:

I also suspect there must be something like 10 nahn or phrases like 'only a few nahn' make no sense:

Also if farmers tend to be 4th or 5th nahn, it leaves no room for people much lower on the social scale (ie. beggars, whores).

You're might be right,

"“You insult my fah, you get a fight. That’s honor. You have honor, lordling?”

“I’m no lordling,” Kal spat. “Stormfather, Jost, I’m only a few nahn higher than you are.”"

I was thinking 5 because:

*there is no mention of anyone lower than 5th.

But there are so few mentions of nahn (notably, none in the epigraphs)

* Everyone else was 4th or 5th. This holds some weight against the beggers an whores argument - it would mean the town had no beggers or whores. Then again, maybe kalidrin as a child didn't consider them in this statement.

* They don't have full citizenship until 2nd nahn, seems unlikely that there would be 8 ranks of people with out full citzenship, Above slaves.

* 5 seems reasonable as presumably the system was made by lighteyes, and "Why waste so many ranks on people who are so far beneath you. Once you know you out rank them, the exact magnitude is simply academic".

On the other hand it could be the below 5th rank was mentioned because they are all so unimportant.

still would have thought something would have come up relating to slaves.

What rank are parshmen servants?

[king of nowhere]

I think 5 being the lower is the most likely. farmers are the bottom of a feudal socciety, so it don't make much sense to have 5 lower grades under them. beggars and such would still be 5th, but without land assigned to them. slaves would have no rank, they are slaves and that's it. they are property, basically. you dont give ranks to a chair. it also make sense that most of the population is of the lower social extraction, as such was the case in feudal societies.

other option is that there are 7 nahns, but 7 don't bring any special ignificance in roshar, so seems unlikely.

last option is there's 10 nahns, but I don't think it makes sense 5 ranks below farmer.

[Riddlesinthedark]

I think 5 being the lower is the most likely. farmers are the bottom of a feudal socciety, so it don't make much sense to have 5 lower grades under them. beggars and such would still be 5th, but without land assigned to them. slaves would have no rank, they are slaves and that's it. they are property, basically. you dont give ranks to a chair. it also make sense that most of the population is of the lower social extraction, as such was the case in feudal societies.

other option is that there are 7 nahns, but 7 don't bring any special ignificance in roshar, so seems unlikely.

last option is there's 10 nahns, but I don't think it makes sense 5 ranks below farmer.

Isn't part of the book about how the "calling of farmer"(*forget the exact nomenclature of the books), is somewhat respected, an honored position just below being a soldier?

[Oxinabox]

You are correct Voldy:

"After being dried, that grain would feed the entire town and their highprince’s armies. The ardents who passed through town were careful to explain that the Calling of a farmer was a noble one, one of the highest save for the Calling of a soldier. Kal’s father whispered under his breath that he saw far more honor in feeding the kingdom than he did in fighting and dying in useless wars."

However the use of careful, to me suggests they were distorting the true because of the situation.

... Kal said. “It must. Otherwise, why would so many men go to war?”

“Because,” Jest said, “we’ve gotta prepare men to fight for the Tranquiline Halls. We’ve gotta send soldiers to the Heralds. The ardents are always talking of it.”

“In the same breaths that they tell us it’s all right to be a farmer too,” Khav said. “Like, farming’s some lonely second place or something.”

“Hey,” Tift said. “My fah’s a farmer, and he’s right good at it. It’s a noble Calling! All your fahs are farmers.”

---

"“Fighting is not the only thing of value a man can do.” The ardents were very specific about that. Yes, the highest Calling of men was to join the battle in the afterlife to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls, but the Almighty accepted the

excellence of any man or woman, regardless of what they did."

"The devotaries taught that when men died, the most valiant among them—the ones who fulfilled their Callings best—would rise to help reclaim heaven. Each man would do as he had done in life. Spearmen to fight, farmers to work spiritual farms, lighteyes to lead. The ardents were careful to point out that excellence in any Calling would bring power. A farmer would be able to wave his hand and create great fields of spiritual crops. A spearman would be a great warrior, able to cause thunder with his shield and lightning with his spear."

To me it sounds like all callings are called the Second best calling,

depending on who the ardent is speaking too

Edited July 15, 2012 by Oxinabox

[king of nowhere]

Isn't part of the book about how the "calling of farmer"(*forget the exact nomenclature of the books), is somewhat respected, an honored position just below being a soldier?

Even the middle age nobles would acknowledge that without farmers they would be unable to eat, and that it is a noble thing to do to provide food for everyone, and so on. that did not change the fact that they were treated little better than slaves.

[ReaderAt2046]

Just one chip-in, I think sas nahn means "no rank", implying that slaves have no level of rank whatsoever.

[CrazyRioter]

Also, I suspect that "Brightlord" can be used with any lighteyes of higher rank then the speaker.

[Windrunner]

Awesome work! It's great to have all this information in the same place, and you are absolutely right about the wiki. We'll figure out where to put this when it comes back online. A couple little technical niggles.

Master-Servants are of 2nd nahn, as is Lirin's family.

...

1st nahn are able to marry into lighteye'ed family.

Since Kaladin is of the second nahn, and is apparently capable of marrying Laral, I believe that the second nahn must also be able to marry lower dahn lighteyes.

Highprince is a thing, I believe they are all 1st dahn.

There's a tad of a problem here. You say that the dahn/nahn levels are the same between parents and children. Yet when Kaladin sees Adolin, he recognizes the knots on his uniform as designating him of the second or third dahn. So this either means that the familial relation thing doesn't apply to dahn rank, or that Dalinar, and presumably the other highprinces are second or third dahn. I guess it's possible that only a king can be first dahn, but that would mean that there had been none in Alethkar for centuries, so I'm not sure what the right answer is here.

[Smidge]

Since Kaladin is of the second nahn, and is apparently capable of marrying Laral, I believe that the second nahn must also be able to marry lower dahn lighteyes.

It could be that Kaladin's marrying Laral was assuming that Kaladin would gain a nahn in becoming a surgeon or something, we don't really know much about how the process of gaining/losing nahn/dahn works. There's also things to consider with inheriting them like whether they're inherited through the male or female line or some mix, or just what happens with people of different ranking that marry.

On a tangent that's occurred to me, I wonder if Kaladin's mother has a lighteyed parent or something. I got the feeling there was some sort of story there from the way they were brought up.

Also, a correction on the OP, there is no promise of a raise in nahn for joining the army, it only comes if they get promoted to a high rank in the army, here's the quote:

"My fighting is not as glorious as the war for vengeance," Amaram said, "but it is our sacred duty to

defend our lands. This tour will be for four years, and upon completing your duty, you will receive a war

bonus equal to one-tenth your total wages. You may then return, or you may sign up for further duty.

Distinguish yourself and rise to a high rank, and it could mean an increase of one nahn for you and your

children. Are there any volunteers?"

[ReaderAt2046]

There's a tad of a problem here. You say that the dahn/nahn levels are the same between parents and children. Yet when Kaladin sees Adolin, he recognizes the knots on his uniform as designating him of the second or third dahn. So this either means that the familial relation thing doesn't apply to dahn rank, or that Dalinar, and presumably the other highprinces are second or third dahn. I guess it's possible that only a king can be first dahn, but that would mean that there had been none in Alethkar for centuries, so I'm not sure what the right answer is here.

It is possible that first dahn is exclusively for the kings and higprinces, so that as Highprince, Dalinar is a dahn above everyone else in his family.

[LightReader]

I think the knots of rank on Adolin's uniform that Kaladin is noticing are knots of military rank, not social caste. Adolin's high military rank, without knowing his family name, suggests second or third dahn.

[Oxinabox]

Just one chip-in, I think sas nahn means "no rank", implying that slaves have no level of rank whatsoever.

I originally thought that,

but then why does the glyph pair "sas moren" represent the district where he was branded.

It could be that sas means slave, so "sas nahn" = "Slave Rank", and "sas moren" = "Slave of/from/by Moren"

Also, I suspect that "Brightlord" can be used with any lighteyes of higher rank then the speaker.

It could be.

Since Kaladin is of the second nahn, and is apparently capable of marrying Laral, I believe that the second nahn must also be able to marry lower dahn lighteyes.

I don't think he actually was, under normal circumstances.

Laral was pressuring Kaladin as a child to go off and win a Shard. Kaladin realised that that was so they they could marry.

I agree that it is probably possible for low ranking lighteyes, to marry 2nd Nahn though.

But very unusual, since 2nd nahn is master-servents it would be like marrying your butler's brother.

(Heck higher ranking lighteyes could promote them then marry them)

I think the knots of rank on Adolin's uniform that Kaladin is noticing are knots of military rank, not social caste. Adolin's high military rank, without knowing his family name, suggests second or third dahn.

I like this suggestion,

Kaladin sees a high ranking officer, "Must be 2nd/3rd dahn",

not realising he is the son of a highprince, and thus 1st.

After all Kaladin wouldn't even think of running into a the son of a highprince there. (he was in a market place in, this is where Adolin defends the whore, right?)

[king of nowhere]

about the marriage question, I don't think there's a rule for marrying in different ranks. I think a high noble could marry a paesant if he wanted, it's just something not done. in the same way that no law forbid the king to marry a beggar, but it's something that happens only in fairy tales. so kaladin could marry laral whatever his nahn was, but it would have been considered shaming for her in the noble circles. that's why laral wanted kal to win a shard.

[Aethling]

Don't forget that at least dark-eyed rank can be bought.

Ok, I actually found the source where Kaladin's father tells him that their rank was bought and worked up to get. It is on page 156 of the hardcover. There is at least some social mobility under the system, and even the nahn are hereditary.

As for the Dalinar/Adolin issue, even in modern systems of nobility the parent and the child are at different levels. Elizabeth is a Queen, but her son is merely a prince. He probably has some actual title, but most people hear of him as Prince Charles. They are both of the royal line, but she is technically a higher station. The question to ask is if Dalinar gives up the highprince post, does he move down a dahn and Adolin move up.

Also, Hoid alludes to there being a valid reason for the lighteyes/darkeyes system.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Aethling

[dj26792]

I think, and have heard (read?) others suggest that that is because the shards make people become a light eyes and they passed that trait onto their descendants, so originally they were led by the Radiants and their children, who were the most intelligent and enlightened people, but as time went on the ranks of lighteyes became what they are in the book.

But I agree with Aethlings point about rank, just because Rank is hereditary doesnt mean that children will always have the same rank as their parents, they could be started several ranks lower and expected to work their way up for themselves while they wait to take up the mantle of their House for example or some system like that, and Kalladin as a darkeyes having his fathers rank doesnt make that any more or less unlikely as it is quite common historically and even today for social systems amongst nobility/extreme upper class to work differently to those of the majority of people.

[Kenshu Ani]

There are at least 8 ranks of dahn. From the begining of the chapter, "Nearer the Flame"

"Victory! We stand atop the mount! We scatter them before us!

Their homes become our dens, their lands are now our farms! And

they shall burn, as we once did, in a place that is hollow and forlorn."

-Collected on Ishashan, 1172, 18 seconds pre-death. Subject was a light-

eyed spinster of the eighth dahn.

Personally, I think there are 10 ranks of dahn and nahn. It fits well with the 10 Heralds, and could be a symbolic gesture.

[dj26792]

I suspect that there are ten but very few people are at the lowest extreme it makes some sense that over the years most families have done at least one thing worth being raised, the only people who would realistically be the lowest rank would be freed slaves, no matter how low your rank is your happier with someone below you, and since most slaves who get freed do it in war they would become soldiers and probably raise their rank a bit quite quickly so that someone would be lower than them

[TruthlessShin]

So I was reading through the book today and caught this:

"The Shardbearer stood with his blade resting on his armored shoulder, and he inspected Dalinar with eyes of such bright blue, they were almost white. We're those eyes actually glowing, leaking Stormlight?"

-page 371 softcover

Slightly off-topic, but I wonder if Hoid's comment has something to do with lighteyes being able to hold Stormlight in some way.

[Riddlesinthedark]

There are at least 8 ranks of dahn. From the begining of the chapter, "Nearer the Flame"

Personally, I think there are 10 ranks of dahn and nahn. It fits well with the 10 Heralds, and could be a symbolic gesture.

Also the 10 Deaths, and the 10 kingdoms. Given the heavy use and symbolism of the number 10, I do not know why anyone would lean otherwise.

[Oxinabox]

There are at least 8 ranks of dahn. From the begining of the chapter, "Nearer the Flame"

We know there are 10 ranks of dahn, (from the bit saying what would happen to Shallan's Arden friend if he quit the Ardents - he would be demoted to 10th dahn)

the question is, are there 10 ranks of nahn (darkeyes)?

with the magic number, it seems likely there are,

but what do those bottom 5 ranks do?

We have beggers, whores,Gravedigger?

Also the question of:

captain vs captainlord, vs companylord,

still stands:

is a captain the same a captainlord, but darkeyes?

and:

It would appear that a captain is faily low ranking, just one higher than a Sargent,

and we know companylords act under battalionlords,

but it is also implied that captain is the rank immediately bellow battalionlord, as

that is what kalladrin is raised to, Dalinar is all "I dare not raise you to battalionlord.So you are a captain, but exempt from the chain of command." or some such,

Edited July 19, 2012 by Oxinabox

[FeatherWriter]

I'm fairly sure within a marriage, both partners keep their own ranks, especially in a darkeyes/lighteyes marriage. Kaladin mentions somewhere that if he and Laral were to get married, if they had lighteyed children, his children would outrank him. Here's the quote (Sorry, I don't have a page number. This is my online copy. It's in Chapter 25, The Butcher.):

How would he feel, marrying someone like Laral? He’d never be her equal. Their children would have a chance of being lighteyed or darkeyed, so even his children might outrank him. He knew he’d feel terribly out of place.

This makes me wonder how ranks are decided for children if the parents are of different ranks? Something to consider.

[Voidus]

Well when the army comes through they mention that if you distinguish yourself you could gain an increase in rank of one nahn for you and your children, my guess would be that it would be inherited from the parent of your gender, except in the case of a lighteyes marrying a darkeyes as any darkeyed children would have a nahn rank and any lighteyed children would have the dahn rank.

[name_here]

It's quite possible that the situation with nahn is more complex than just all farmers being fourth or fifth. There's no particular indication that nahn directly limit what jobs a person can get or are provided purely by occupation. For instance, Tien was apprenticing as a carpenter, which is much lower status than surgeon, but there was no indication that he would lose his position as Second Nahn. So if he'd had children they would probably be Second Nahn but not surgeons. At a guess, fifth is unusually high for farmers and the town inhabitants are relatively independent compared to the average.

Also, nahn provide degrees of civil rights. For instance, being Second Nahn provides right of inquest, which seems to mean a reasonably fair trial. So they're probably more about that than job access.