Gem Currency System

[11thorderknight]

We know that gemstones encased in glass spheres form the currency on Roshar, and we get a few bits of info regarding their relative worth. I thought it might be interesting to put that together and try to figure out as much of the currency system as we can.

What we know for certain:

1. There are three denominations of each gem: chips, marks and broams.

2. Diamonds are the least valuable.

3. Emeralds are the most valuable.

4. 5 chips make a mark.

5. The relative value of gems, at least theoretically, is related to their use in Soulcasting, since we're told in the first Shallan PoV that emeralds are most valuable because they can be used to make food.

6. A clearchip (diamond chip) is the price of one loaf of bread; this is the smallest denomination of money.

7. An emerald broam, the largest denomination, is worth 1,000 diamond chips.

8. A bridgeman is paid 2 diamond marks a day. The slaves, like Kaladin, get half of that.

9. A sailor earns one firemark (ruby) a week, i.e. every 5 days.

10. There are 5 diamonds to a garnet

11. A garnet is worth less than a sapphire

What we can guess:

1. Sapphires are relatively cheap, since we see them a lot in the bridgemen scenes, and also because, when Shallan buys her books, the final price is "three emerald broams and two sapphire". This implies that two sapphires are still worth less than one emerald.

2. If bridgemen (non-slaves) get 2 diamond marks a day, then they get 10 per week. Sailors get one ruby mark per week. This means that rubies are at least 10 times more valuable than diamonds, and probably more, since I can't imagine sailors being paid less than bridgemen. This implies that rubies are among the more valuable gems.

3. We hear a lot about Soulcast stone barracks as a means of defending against highstorms. This seems to be a core function of the ardents with the army, and therefore implies that topaz would be pretty valuable.

What we have questions about:

1. If the value of gems were only affected by Soulcasting use, why is diamond the least valuable? Crystal/glass seems more useful than air, or smoke, or oil. Why are rubies valuable? Incinerating thieves is certainly badass, but is that really what the ardents use them for?

2. In a flashback, Dalinar sees a Radiant heal a woman using a topaz and a heliodor, corresponding to flesh and bone. If the ardents have healing fabrials, why wouldn't heliodor be among the most valuable gems? One would think the wealthy would pay out the wazoo for miraculous healing.

3. How much more valuable are infused gems than dun ones? At one point, Shallan says they're just as valuable, and the apothecary Kaladin goes to accepts them (after verifying they're real), but at another point we hear about moneychangers charging fees to infuse spheres.

4. On a related note, how long do spheres keep their charge? Do larger ones hold their charge longer? Do they hold more stormlight?

Please post what you can to this, I'd love to see an accurate "exchange rate" chart!

[Earendil]

A couple more things we know:

1.  Sapphires are worth more than Garnets (when Kaladin first goes in to buy antiseptic, he learns that Larmic mucus, at two bloodmarks a bottle, is much cheaper than Lister's oil, which costs two sapphire marks).

2.  A Garnet mark is worth 5 diamond marks.

3.  A Sapphire mark is worth 25 diamond marks (page 386).

4.  An Emerald Broam is worth 200 diamond marks :

This single emerald broam was worth what a bridgeman slave would make in 200 days.

(page 766)

It's also interesting to note that bridgemen seem to be paid fairly well for slaves.  After all, 3 emerald broams appears to be a high price for a slave, which would put the cost of the slave debt around 600 diamond marks.  There's no chance for a bridgeman to live anywhere near that long, but given the 50 day month, assuming a 10 month year (it seems logical, given what we know of times), a bridgeman slave could buy his contract in a little over a year.  Since Kaladin doesn't know of any slaves buying their contracts, this seems like it must be fairly rich pay.  Yes, a full years wages is a lot, but given 10 years it seems like just about anyone could buy their freedom, if a clearmark a day was standard fare.

[leinton]

Not all bridgemen are slaves. And I'm pretty sure that  bridgemen get 2 diamond chips a day, but those who are slaves (like Kaladin) get only half of that.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

No, bridgemen get two clearmarks a day.  But doesn't it say that the slave debt is worth much more than the actual price of a slave?

What I really want to know is what the ratio is between marks and broams.  If we knew that we could figure out the multiples between any denomination of any gem we know of in comparison to one of the others.

Well, the order of gems isn't tied to the number system, seeing as Emerald is five, Diamond is four and Sapphire is one.

A sapphire mark is only one eighth of an emerald broam.  That seems...off somehow.

[11thorderknight]

I may have to revise my initial assumption that sapphires are relatively cheap. As has been pointed out,

2.  A Garnet mark is worth 5 diamond marks.

3.  A Sapphire mark is worth 25 diamond marks (page 386).

4.  An Emerald Broam is worth 200 diamond marks

Therefore, doing the math, an emerald broam is worth 8 (200 / 25) sapphire marks.

We really need to find out how many marks there are to a broam, but we know that there are 5 chips to a mark, so if we assume that, likewise, there are 5 marks to a broam, that means that an emerald broam is worth 1.6 sapphires. This contradicts my previous statement that a sapphire has to be worth less than half an emerald....so i guess i was wrong about that.

Also: note the frequency of the number 5 as a multiple: 5 chips to a mark, 5 diamonds to a garnet, 25 diamonds to a sapphire (and by extension, 5 garnets to a sapphire). I think 5 marks to a broam is a fairly safe assumption until we are explicitly told otherwise.

Another important point. We know that there are 1,000 diamond chips to an emerald broam. If we assume 5 marks to a broam, that means 25 chips to a broam, and therefore 1,000 diamond chips equals 25 emerald chips, and therefore, one emerald is worth 40 diamonds. This is very important, because it establishes that the most valuable gem is worth 40 times the least valuable one. The other eight have to fall somewhere between this range.

[Andrew the Great]

That seems rather low. We know from Kaladin's discussion with the apothecary that the conversion in marks can't be less than 3 to 1 from one level to the next (otherwise the price wouldn't be two (insert essence here)marks). So with 5 chips = 1 mark, that means the conversion couldn't be less than 15:1 for the chips. Unless my thinking here is flawed, as is entirely possible, since I haven't slept nearly enough in the last week. Though granted, doing it this way requires a huge number of chips. To go from diamonds to the next level would be 15 chips. Then, to get a single gemstone on the third level, you'd have to have 15*15 diamonds. So to get a single emerald, you'd have to have 15^10 diamonds. Which my calculator shows as 576650390625.

Although it could be possible that it's not possible to convert directly between marks of different gemstones without also giving change in chips. In fact, this seems likely.

Also note that if you take the tenth root of 40, it's 1.446...... This makes it rather unlikely that our actual conversion factor between gemstones is a set pattern between levels, as it would mean that 1.5 of the lower sphere equals one of the next. Which is not particularly practical.

It also doesn't seem likely that it's all based off of diamonds, and other conversion factors are arbitrary. Doing it this way would mean that 4.444 diamonds is one of the second level, 8.8888 diamonds is one of the third level, etc....

In fact, I can't see any way that the 40:1 conversion factor works out nicely and is consistent between levels. So that makes me wonder if the conversion from marks to broams if different.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I emailed Peter about the rate from marks to broams and here's the response I got.

Five chips per mark, four marks per broam. There are also 5 levels of value according to the gemstone used.

The question I asked got a very clear answer, but the bit on the end is not quite something I understand. I'll have to ask him about that one.

[Arcanist Lupus]

I emailed Peter about the rate from marks to broams and here's the response I got.

Five chips per mark, four marks per broam. There are also 5 levels of value according to the gemstone used.

The question I asked got a very clear answer, but the bit on the end is not quite something I understand. I'll have to ask him about that one.

Silus, I think he means that there are 5 different gemstones being used (namely Diamonds, Garnets, Rubys, Sapphires, and Emeralds).

With this information, I think that the equivalencies are thus:

1 Garnet Chip = 5 Diamond Chips

1 Ruby Chip = 2 Garnet Chips = 10 Diamond Chips

1 Sapphire Chip = 2.5 Ruby Chips = 5 Garnet Chips = 25 Diamond Chips

1 Emerald Chip = 2 Sapphire Chips = 5 Ruby Chips = 10 Garnet Chips = 50 Diamond Chips

I guessed the value of the ruby chip based on the others, using the American pennies:nickels:dimes:quarters:half dollar equivalency.

Oddly enough, this would make the sailor's wage of 1 firemark per week equal to the bridgemen's wage of 2 clearmarks a day (of course, a slave's wage is half that).

Edited November 10, 2011 by Sir_Read-a-Lot

[Wispsy]

well being a bridgeman is a fairly dangerous job! gotta be some reason to do it! lol

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I emailed Peter again.

Me: Do you mean that certain types of gems have the same value?

Peter: As each other, yes.

Should I inquire further on this topic?

[Catalyst21]

Should I inquire further on this topic?

Yes Please

[callumke]

Based on the info thus far, it looks like we have the following. Note that each subset is worth one emerald broam.

1000 diamond chips = 200 diamond marks = 50 diamond broams =

200 garnet chips = 40 garnet marks = 10 garnet broams =

100 ruby chips = 20 ruby marks = 5 ruby broams =

40 sapphire chips = 8 sapphire marks = 2 sapphire broams =

20 emerald chips = 4 emerald marks = 1 emerald broam

This only uses half of the gemstones provided in the Ars Arcanum, the other being Smokestone, Zircon, Amethyst, Topaz, and Heliodor. I'm not sure if any of these are actually used in text to refer to money; I can't find any references. Unless there are two different gems of equal value for each value level, I can't see how this is going to be resolved. And if this is the case, why not mention any of the equalitites?

EDIT: I have actually found references to other gems, there are references to a Topaz sphere and a Zircon Sphere.

Edited December 1, 2011 by FireArcadia

[Wispsy]

Maybe it depends what area of the world you are in for which is more commonly used there

[Windrunner]

This only uses half of the gemstones provided in the Ars Arcanum, the other being Smokestone, Zircon, Amethyst, Topaz, and Heliodor.

I don't have the Way of Kings with me, but when Shallan writes Jasnah her letter and is waiting for her to find it, it says that there are only nine types of gemstones used in the spheres. It did not say however, which type of gem was not used. I'll look for the exact quote and put it up as soon as possible. I imagine it is either Heliodor, or Zircon, because I can't remember ever seeing those types of gems used as currency. I wonder if there is any reason that one of the gems wasn't used.

[ashanderai]

Slightly off topic. How big are these currencies that they are carrying around anyway? The way I picture it in my mind is a chip is the size of...well, say a flat potato chip. A broam being a like the size of a super bounce ball. I am sure that is not the case because it would be aufully difficult to carry a decent amount of money around if that were so. I just don't remember seeing an actual size given.

I may have missed it given that I finished the book in only 4 days.

[dj26792]

I was going to reply with what I thought the sizes would be but then I realised none of you are familiar with Australian currency, I'll look for a picture which will give you an idea of the sizes but I'm imagining the size of a 5c coin a little bit bigger than a 10c coin and the size of a 50c coin.

EDIT:

the picture

a 5c coin is about a cm across... just under and half an inch for the metrically challenged.

Edited December 1, 2011 by dj26792

[Cheese Ninja]

Slightly off topic. How big are these currencies that they are carrying around anyway? The way I picture it in my mind is a chip is the size of...well, say a flat potato chip. A broam being a like the size of a super bounce ball. I am sure that is not the case because it would be aufully difficult to carry a decent amount of money around if that were so. I just don't remember seeing an actual size given.

I may have missed it given that I finished the book in only 4 days.

I got the impression that none were particularly large, but that the spheres do increase in size from chip to mark to broam. There are scenes where character are holding several in their hands. Most of their volume is the glass surrounding the tiny bit of gem on the inside. Keep in mind that they're all spheres though, not just the broams. (They're also flattened on one side, so they can be placed on a flat surface without rolling all over the place.)

I'm glad that we've finally been informed about the number of marks to a broam, that was really bothering me. The currency system still bothers me a because of how tightly packed together all the denominations are, still after just now looking at the old British currency system on wikipedia, things could be much, much worse.

And since I only see 3 of the known 4 slang coinage terms mentioned here:

clear=diamond

blood=garnet

fire=ruby

sky=sapphire

I get the impression that the other gemstones are used as currency as well, but maybe they're just less popular? A bit like the US $2 bill or $1 coins.

[Argent]

Re: the size of the different spheres. Unless I misremember, all of the spheres are the same size* and it is the size and type of the gem inside that makes all the difference. I think one of Shallan's first chapters talks about the size of the gems in a few sentences, but I don't have the book with me right now, so I can't check.

*I imagine they are all about as big as a glass marble. And just to make sure we are thinking of the same glass marbles, the ones I played with are about a centimeter across.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Argent

[Catalyst21]

Re: the size of the different spheres. Unless I misremember, all of the spheres are the same size* and it is the size and type of the gem inside that makes all the difference. I think one of Shallan's first chapters talks about the size of the gems in a few sentences, but I don't have the book with me right now, so I can't check.

*I imagine they are all about as big as a http://www.steampunkglass.com/USERIMAGES/o4.jpg]glass marble[/url]. And just to make sure we are thinking of the same glass marbles, the ones I played with are about a centimeter across.

The link should be this

[Cheese Ninja]

Re: the size of the different spheres. Unless I misremember, all of the spheres are the same size* and it is the size and type of the gem inside that makes all the difference. I think one of Shallan's first chapters talks about the size of the gems in a few sentences, but I don't have the book with me right now, so I can't check.

*I imagine they are all about as big as a glass marble. And just to make sure we are thinking of the same glass marbles, the ones I played with are about a centimeter across.

I double-checked, you're correct, the glass part is the same size across all denominations. I thought they'd be different to make them easier to distinguish from each other. Edit: Actually the exact wording was "The glass part of most spheres was the same size; the size of the gemstone at the center determined the denomination." The 'most' makes me wonder if there are special instances we aren't aware of.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Cheese Ninja

[happyman]

I double-checked, you're correct, the glass part is the same size across all denominations. I thought they'd be different to make them easier to distinguish from each other. Edit: Actually the exact wording was "The glass part of most spheres was the same size; the size of the gemstone at the center determined the denomination." The 'most' makes me wonder if there are special instances we aren't aware of.

This is true. If Roshar ever wants to develop vending machine technology, they had better get on the ball with their currency. Either that, or use Fabrials which can sense gem types.

My mind goes to weird places sometimes.

[Argent]

Right, I noticed I messed it up. I just found another image. It may be better, since apparently glass marbles have those little pieces of plastic in them; and I could see the gemstones inside spheres easily being of similar size and shape.

[EHyde]

(They're also flattened on one side, so they can be placed on a flat surface without rolling all over the place.)

They are? Hey, I think potentially making these just got a whole lot easier.

[Dahak]

I imagine it is either Heliodor, or Zircon, because I can't remember ever seeing those types of gems used as currency. I wonder if there is any reason that one of the gems wasn't used.

Kaladin loots some Zircon chips while on chasm duty. I think it's the time they shot spheres to the bottom of the bridge.

[Songstress]

I use my Kindle app on my desktop solely for geeking out and searching text to post on forums.

Before this trip, she’d never used money; she’d just admired the spheres for their beauty. Each one was composed of a glass bead a little larger than a person’s thumbnail with a much smaller gemstone set at the center.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (p. 69). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

The glass part of most spheres was the same size; the size of the gemstone at the center determined the denomination. The three chips, for instance, each had only a tiny splinter of diamond inside.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (p. 69). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

I imagine the largest denominations may be a bit bigger to accommodate the larger stones, as the size of a thumbnail is a bit small.